The only answer against Miners Mafia is UASF

[Quickseller]

All of satoshis changes were done by "proof of satoshi" not USAF/UASF.

Since Bitcoin was ~worthless when the changes were implemented, no one had any reason not to oblige. Also satoshi has significant amounts of mining hardware (when compared to the total network), so he would probably mine the chain with the most work anyway.

[jonald_fyookball]

"proof of satoshi" 

[anonymoustroll420]

All of satoshis changes were done by "proof of satoshi" not USAF/UASF.

I agree with you to some extent. However to quote Satoshi:

It can be phased in, like:

if (blocknumber > 115000)
    maxblocksize = largerlimit

This is a user activated flag day fork. There is no miner signalling.

Since Bitcoin was ~worthless when the changes were implemented, no one had any reason not to oblige. Also satoshi has significant amounts of mining hardware (when compared to the total network), so he would probably mine the chain with the most work anyway.

I don't think thats the case, maybe in the very first few months of Bitcoin, but I don't think that he controlled large amounts of mining hardware in the later part of 2010, in around June 2010 people began writing their own GPU miners. One person controlled 30% of the hash rate with 3 GPU's. When this revelation that people had GPU miners later became more publicly known it seemed to shock satoshi:

983 Mhash/s box.

Seriously?  What hardware is that?

Also satoshi never publicly stated when he did forks. He always hid the change in with some other commit and never told anyone or documented it until after activation. This was likely to avoid any kind of debate.

[tournamentdan]

1 cpu = 1 vote

Miner voting on economic policy seems like a bad idea, mining is afterall pay-to-vote.

That's the thing. Miners carry the majority of the risk. Which is why we are the ones to decide.
If people are tired of the "centralized china mining". The solution is quite simple. The so called "economic majority" can take part in the high risk and buy some miners. Problem solved.

[anonymoustroll420]

That's the thing. Miners carry the majority of the risk. Which is why we are the ones to decide.
If people are tired of the "centralized china mining". The solution is quite simple. The so called "economic majority" can take part in the high risk and buy some miners. Problem solved.

You won't be able to compete with the chinese miners in the long term unless you have free electricity or you buy your electricity directly from a nuclear power plant like they do, which is illegal in most countries including China, you must buy it from the national grid at increased cost.

Additionally you must buy your hardware from a manufacturer. The Bitcoin ASIC manufacturing industry is become more and more monopolized, just look at how many manufacturers have been put out of business. It requires tens of millions of dollars investment to get access to 16nm tech. To make it even worse, patented mining "optimizations" like ASICBoost are just around the corner. If the Bitcoin ASIC manufacturing industry becomes monopolized, the manufacturer may decide to stop selling mining equipment to the public and mine themselves, or just sell it at exorbitant prices to prevent people from competing with them effectively.

I suppose you could spend the $1 million is costs to design an ASIC, spend the millions it costs to get access to a foundry, bribe the foundry to produce ASIC's with patented tech, bribe officials to get access to nuclear power and pray the patent owner doesn't sue you for millions. Then you could stand a chance at competing. You would have to become a criminal to compete.

[tournamentdan]

That's the thing. Miners carry the majority of the risk. Which is why we are the ones to decide.
If people are tired of the "centralized china mining". The solution is quite simple. The so called "economic majority" can take part in the high risk and buy some miners. Problem solved.

You won't be able to compete with the chinese miners unless you have free electricity or you buy your electricity directly from a nuclear power plant like they do, which is illegal in most countries, you must buy it from the national grid at increased cost.

I am a miner and I make money. There are places that host miners for you.
And it is impossible for the china miners to out number the entire bitcoin community.
If each person that owned a bitcoin wallet owned a miner. Chinese miners would be out numbered.

[tournamentdan]

Currently there are three asic manufacturers. Two sell to the public and one does not.

[anonymoustroll420]

Currently there are three asic manufacturers. Two sell to the public and one does not.

Right and one owns ASICBoost, a patented tech. They may refuse to let the other 2 use it. Their equipment will be inferior and those manufacturers will go bankrupt. This gives the remaining manufacturer a monopoly of the mining hardware industry. They have no competition so can sell their miners at whatever price they like and people who want them will have to pay it as there is no alternative or they may decide it's more profitable not to sell it at all, and they can mine on their own with their superior mining hardware which existing hardware can't compete with. It would be like a GPU trying to compete with an ASIC.

[tournamentdan]

Currently there are three asic manufacturers. Two sell to the public and one does not.

Right and one owns ASICBoost, a patented tech. They may refuse to let the other 2 use it. Their equipment will be inferior and those manufacturers will go bankrupt. This gives the remaining manufacturer a monopoly of the mining hardware industry. They have no competition so can sell their miners at whatever price they like and people who want them will have to pay it as there is no alternative or they may decide it's more profitable not to sell it at all, and they can mine on their own with their superior mining hardware which existing hardware can't compete with. It would be like a GPU trying to compete with an ASIC.

For starters there isn't any proof that asicboost actually works. People patent things all the time that will never work  Secondly bitmain only owns a patent in china. Thirdly nothing is stopping another asic manufacturer from coming out with a smaller better efficient chip.
But then all we would hear about is people complaining about the new monopoly.

[anonymoustroll420]

For starters there isn't any proof that asicboost actually works. People patent things all the time that will never work  Secondly bitmain only owns a patent in china. Thirdly nothing is stopping another asic manufacturer from coming out with a smaller better efficient chip.
But then all we would hear about is people complaining about the new monopoly.

It's real. People are using ASICBoost right now with their antminers on antpool. All that has to be done to turn it on is change "multi-version: 1" to "multi-version: 2" in the config, and point your miner to antpool which has an ASICBoost enabled stratum server and it starts doing covert ASICBoost. One person has been doing this for 9 months.

According to bitmain, 16nm is the best we will have for a long time due to moore's law. This seems to be true as this is on-par with chips produced by top tier microprocessor manufacturers such as Intel. We've been stuck with 12-16nm for a while now (EDIT: intels smallest chip is currently 14nm). Companies like intel are increasing the number of cores and adding additional tech in like co-processors such as the AES instruction set to speed up encryption. They haven't made significantly more efficient chips in a while.

There are only a handful of foundries in the world, most of which are in China. ASICBoost is also patented in the US by someone else.

[tournamentdan]

People are not using asicboost on antpool. You have fallen into the propaganda trap laid out by core.

[anonymoustroll420]

People are not using asicboost on antpool. You have fallen into the propaganda trap laid out by core.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/63yo27/some_circumstantial_evidence_supporting_the_claim/dfy5o65/

You can test that antpool supports ASICBoost yourself without an antminer by reading that post and following the instructions, or you can check the code here:
https://github.com/bitmaintech/bmminer/blob/b7cddda740378ed94ee9425f63c269ac0322a131/util.c#L2495

If you have an antminer, follow that post and turn ASICBoost on yourself.

That guy made a post 9 months ago stating he got ASICBoost working on antpool:
https://archive.fo/Ok3SJ

[tournamentdan]

People are not using asicboost on antpool. You have fallen into the propaganda trap laid out by core.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/63yo27/some_circumstantial_evidence_supporting_the_claim/dfy5o65/

You can test that antpool supports ASICBoost yourself without an antminer by reading that post and following the instructions.

I really wish people that throw accusations around would do the math themselves to find out the truth. Before they start spreading false information around.
The only real smoking gun is empty blocks. Now core sheep often say antpool mines a lot of empty blocks. But they never provide any data on the subject.
Antpool mines around 18% of all empty blocks. Which is right in line seeing how over the past year they have had 18% of the network hash rate. Which also means they mined 18% of all total blocks.
Here is some numbers comparing three different pools controlled by three different entitys.  Taken from 4/06/16 to 4/06/17.


All you have to do is compare each pool found block to hash rate. For example I will show you stats for three pools. One of the pools is Bitfury. It is really hard for me to think that a company that received 90 million from investors is using Bitmain miners. So they shouldn't have any asicboost tech.

Antpool. 18.71% of network. 10,224 blocks found.

Bitfury. 9.00% of network.  4,919 blocks found.

Kano ck pool. 1.89% of network. 1035 blocks found.

As you can see Antpool is 9.89 times bigger than Kano ck pool. Kano pool found 1035 blocks.  9.89x 1035= 10,236. Which is less of a 1% difference when compared to Antpool 10,224.

Now let's check Kano to Bitfury.
Bitfury is 4.76 times bigger than Kano.  4.76x1035=4,926. Pretty close to Bitfury's 4919.

Now let's check Bitfury to Antpool.
Antpool is 2.07 times bigger than Bitfury.  2.07x4919=10,182. which is less than a 1% difference. Close enough.
Antpool performs within 1% of other pools.
This is an obvious attempt of core trying to confuse non miners. So people will continue to voice out against anything but segwit.

[anonymoustroll420]

The only real smoking gun is empty blocks.

No it's not. Empty blocks can mean headfirst mining. It's since been discovered ASICBoost can be done without empty blocks or reordering transactions (though it can be done that way too) by malleating a transaction that pays themselves. This is fully undetectable on the blockchain. The only indication is that blocks will contain txes that were never broadcast on the network prior to the block being found, which antpool does.

The smoking gun is that the firmware that was extracted contains ASICBoost hooks:
http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/irc/bitcoin/bitmain-firmware/

That the stratum server contains code to support ASICBoost and the post above shows how to prove that. Open cmd, telnet into antpools stratum server and check yourself.

That bmminer contains code to enable ASICBoost.

And that people ARE using it right now. They're not wild accusations, I mean there are step-by-step tutorials explaining how to enable it and how to check antpools server supports it. Buy an antminer and turn it on yourself.

We don't have proof if BITMAIN used it, but we know for sure miners on antpool are using it right now this second.

[tournamentdan]

The only real smoking gun is empty blocks.

No it's not. Empty blocks can mean headfirst mining. It's since been discovered ASICBoost can be done without empty blocks or reordering transactions (though it can be done that way too) by malleating a transaction that pays themselves. This is fully undetectable on the blockchain. The only indication is that blocks will contain txes that were never broadcast on the network prior to the block being found, which antpool does.

The smoking gun is that the firmware that was extracted contains ASICBoost hooks:
http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/irc/bitcoin/bitmain-firmware/

That the stratum server contains code to support ASICBoost and the post above shows how to prove that. Open cmd, telnet into antpools stratum server and check yourself.

And that people ARE using it right now. They're not wild accusations, I mean there are step-by-step tutorials explaining how to enable it and how to check antpools server supports it. Buy an antminer and turn it on yourself.

We don't have proof if BITMAIN used it, but we know for sure miners on antpool are using it right now this second.

I see now that you are a paid core sheep. Good luck.

[Quickseller]

The only real smoking gun is empty blocks.

No it's not. Empty blocks can mean headfirst mining. It's since been discovered ASICBoost can be done without empty blocks or reordering transactions (though it can be done that way too) by malleating a transaction that pays themselves. This is fully undetectable on the blockchain. The only indication is that blocks will contain txes that were never broadcast on the network prior to the block being found, which antpool does.

The smoking gun is that the firmware that was extracted contains ASICBoost hooks:
http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/irc/bitcoin/bitmain-firmware/

That the stratum server contains code to support ASICBoost and the post above shows how to prove that. Open cmd, telnet into antpools stratum server and check yourself.

And that people ARE using it right now. They're not wild accusations, I mean there are step-by-step tutorials explaining how to enable it and how to check antpools server supports it. Buy an antminer and turn it on yourself.

We don't have proof if BITMAIN used it, but we know for sure miners on antpool are using it right now this second.

Why would a miner who is not bitmain use ASICBOOST on antpool? I don't think it produces more shares, so anypool would pay out the same as if it was not being used, and additional investment would have to be made on the part of the miner.

[tournamentdan]

The only real smoking gun is empty blocks.

No it's not. Empty blocks can mean headfirst mining. It's since been discovered ASICBoost can be done without empty blocks or reordering transactions (though it can be done that way too) by malleating a transaction that pays themselves. This is fully undetectable on the blockchain. The only indication is that blocks will contain txes that were never broadcast on the network prior to the block being found, which antpool does.

The smoking gun is that the firmware that was extracted contains ASICBoost hooks:
http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/irc/bitcoin/bitmain-firmware/

That the stratum server contains code to support ASICBoost and the post above shows how to prove that. Open cmd, telnet into antpools stratum server and check yourself.

And that people ARE using it right now. They're not wild accusations, I mean there are step-by-step tutorials explaining how to enable it and how to check antpools server supports it. Buy an antminer and turn it on yourself.

We don't have proof if BITMAIN used it, but we know for sure miners on antpool are using it right now this second.

Why would a miner who is not bitmain use ASICBOOST on antpool? I don't think it produces more shares, so anypool would pay out the same as if it was not being used, and additional investment would have to be made on the part of the miner.

They are trying to say it is bitmain mining on antpool. What they don't understand is that there is far more money selling miners than mining with them.

[anonymoustroll420]

Why would a miner who is not bitmain use ASICBOOST on antpool? I don't think it produces more shares, so anypool would pay out the same as if it was not being used, and additional investment would have to be made on the part of the miner.

Because you need a stratum server that supports ASICBOOST for it to work. Currently only antpool does, but there is rumours slush may add support for it. It doesn't pay out more shares but reduces power consumption.

I'm not saying bitmain is mining on antpool. I have no idea if they are nor have I any idea if they use ASICBoost for their farms. I'm saying normal joe bloggs has figured out how to turn on asicboost and is using it on antpool.

[Quickseller]

Why would a miner who is not bitmain use ASICBOOST on antpool? I don't think it produces more shares, so anypool would pay out the same as if it was not being used, and additional investment would have to be made on the part of the miner.

Because you need a stratum server that supports ASICBOOST for it to work. Currently only antpool does, but there is rumours slush may add support for it. It doesn't pay out more shares but reduces power consumption.

I'm not saying bitmain is mining on antpool. I have no idea if they are nor have I any idea if they use ASICBoost for their farms.

My understanding is that it reduces power consumption on a per block basis, not a per share basis. So any miner doing this would just find more blocks for antpool. A miner that was contributing 10% of antpool' hashrate that was using ASICBOOST would get a net gain of 2% of revenue and the remaining 18% would be split among the remaining 90% of miners on antpool.

[tournamentdan]

Why would a miner who is not bitmain use ASICBOOST on antpool? I don't think it produces more shares, so anypool would pay out the same as if it was not being used, and additional investment would have to be made on the part of the miner.

Because you need a stratum server that supports ASICBOOST for it to work. Currently only antpool does, but there is rumours slush may add support for it. It doesn't pay out more shares but reduces power consumption.

I'm not saying bitmain is mining on antpool. I have no idea if they are nor have I any idea if they use ASICBoost for their farms.

My understanding is that it reduces power consumption on a per block basis, not a per share basis. So any miner doing this would just find more blocks for antpool. A miner that was contributing 10% of antpool' hashrate that was using ASICBOOST would get a net gain of 2% of revenue and the remaining 18% would be split among the remaining 90% of miners on antpool.

And yet when you compare pools. Like i did. Antpool is not finding more blocks per hash.