Bitcoin Forum
December 04, 2016, 08:20:32 AM *
News: To be able to use the next phase of the beta forum software, please ensure that your email address is correct/functional.
 
   Home   Help Search Donate Login Register  
Pages: « 1 [2] 3 »  All
  Print  
Author Topic: The government and bankers have won.  (Read 2669 times)
apflux
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 6


View Profile
June 18, 2011, 11:46:13 AM
 #21

You forget how easy it is to stop all bitcoin network traffic by blocking packets with deep packet inspection. Maybe bitcoin over freenet has better chances, but with the resources goverments have it's almost impossible to not get blocked by DPI and packet fingerprinting/statistical methods, I think.
1480839632
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1480839632

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1480839632
Reply with quote  #2

1480839632
Report to moderator
1480839632
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1480839632

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1480839632
Reply with quote  #2

1480839632
Report to moderator
1480839632
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1480839632

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1480839632
Reply with quote  #2

1480839632
Report to moderator
Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction. Advertise here.
1480839632
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1480839632

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1480839632
Reply with quote  #2

1480839632
Report to moderator
1480839632
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1480839632

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1480839632
Reply with quote  #2

1480839632
Report to moderator
philipp
Jr. Member
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 30


View Profile
June 18, 2011, 12:25:20 PM
 #22

the network is in disarray, the price crashed, the exchanges give out our info to the governments, the accounts got hacked, the money stolen.

bitcoins lost to the bankers' covert action, better luck next time.

I have yet to see evidence that government or banks are even attempting to fight bitcoin.

Philipp

P.S.: A senator or two giving an interview calling for action doesn't count.
noedaRDH
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 182


Finding Satoshi


View Profile
June 18, 2011, 12:55:02 PM
 #23

the network is in disarray, the price crashed, the exchanges give out our info to the governments, the accounts got hacked, the money stolen.

bitcoins lost to the bankers' covert action, better luck next time.

I have yet to see evidence that government or banks are even attempting to fight bitcoin.

Philipp

P.S.: A senator or two giving an interview calling for action doesn't count.


Governments have already trained the mindset of the public to reject new concepts such as Bitcoins. There's no need for an urgent massive attempt when the audience that Bitcoin needs to please are naturally fearful. Just look at the CBS report. In this sense, the government already has an upper hand.

Plus, it's very easy to use dis-info agents as well. There was something in the news about how the US have developed training and "personality generators" designed to spread propaganda on the net, specifically in message boards.

1NwGKiLcAngD1KiCCivxT6EDJmyXMGqM9q

Ask not what Bitcoin can do for you - ask what you can do for Bitcoin.
AntiVigilante
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 98



View Profile
June 18, 2011, 01:47:13 PM
 #24

Governments have already trained the mindset of the public to reject new concepts such as Bitcoins. There's no need for an urgent massive attempt when the audience that Bitcoin needs to please are naturally fearful. Just look at the CBS report. In this sense, the government already has an upper hand.

Plus, it's very easy to use dis-info agents as well. There was something in the news about how the US have developed training and "personality generators" designed to spread propaganda on the net, specifically in message boards.

Yes. Take it from someone who was in the room when the loot was distributed.

Proposal: http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=11541.msg162881#msg162881
Inception: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/296
Goal: http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=12536.0
Means: Code, donations, and brutal criticism. I've got a thick skin. 1Gc3xCHAzwvTDnyMW3evBBr5qNRDN3DRpq
Darioux
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 12


View Profile
June 18, 2011, 03:28:54 PM
 #25

Well, the banks I cant attest victory or defeat to, but i can say as far as governments go, they cant win the fights with thier own currencies, let alone bitcoins.

Bitcoins have something that the world has almost forgotten the true concept of. The free market.

The real death of the the bitcoin will be when u can start depositing them in chase bank and use them at 7-11 for a soda

This is true. No government has been able to defeat P2P network so this is the strenght of bitcoin. The internet and P2P are here to stay. Down with the Matrix
goodlord666
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 434


100%


View Profile
June 18, 2011, 04:22:14 PM
 #26

Everything goes according to my plans... :)

opticbit
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 676


PGP: 6EBEBCE1E0507C38


View Profile WWW
June 18, 2011, 04:40:27 PM
 #27

I was hopeing for a worthwile read from op.  Good stuff in th comments though.

They can't win, and even if its outlawed, the outlaws will have bitcoins, and many will turn to being an outlaw.

Set up the same thing..
http://bit.ly/btcrefs
Get more bitcoins.
AntiVigilante
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 98



View Profile
June 18, 2011, 04:54:38 PM
 #28

P.S.: A senator or two giving an interview calling for action doesn't count.


I'm appalled that you think they wouldn't want to and considering the little effort involved in debunking the trollfest on these threads (wonder where it came from) why no one should be careful.

Proposal: http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=11541.msg162881#msg162881
Inception: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/296
Goal: http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=12536.0
Means: Code, donations, and brutal criticism. I've got a thick skin. 1Gc3xCHAzwvTDnyMW3evBBr5qNRDN3DRpq
philipp
Jr. Member
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 30


View Profile
June 18, 2011, 05:49:35 PM
 #29

P.S.: A senator or two giving an interview calling for action doesn't count.


I'm appalled that you think they wouldn't want to and considering the little effort involved in debunking the trollfest on these threads (wonder where it came from) why no one should be careful.

Why would "the government" or "the banks" wnt to shut down bitcoin? Those thinking startegically about a possible loss of power due to bitcoin replacing fiat currences most likely do not see bitcoin as a real threat yet: They won't act unless bitcoin becomes a real problem for them (if they cared for every little project that showed some potential there'd be a thousand things they's have to fight at once).

What we see now is two senators discovering something that can be connected to drugs, noticing that no one else tried to turn it into political profit yet; they just grab the opportunity to appear "tough on crime".

I do think that some governments will try to take action against bitcoin at some point in the future, and so will some banks. But I do not think that there are any governments or banks actively fighting bitcoin today.

If bitcoin fails today, it is not governments or banks winning a fight, it is bitcoin failing without any action from governments or banks.

Philipp
Jaagu
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 62



View Profile
June 18, 2011, 05:56:33 PM
 #30

SURE IS FEARMONGERING IN HERE
Every one fears a goat from in front, a horse from the rear and a fool on every side.
iamzill
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 139


View Profile
June 18, 2011, 06:11:54 PM
 #31

P.S.: A senator or two giving an interview calling for action doesn't count.


I'm appalled that you think they wouldn't want to and considering the little effort involved in debunking the trollfest on these threads (wonder where it came from) why no one should be careful.

Why would "the government" or "the banks" wnt to shut down bitcoin? ...

What we see now is two senators discovering something that can be connected to drugs, noticing that no one else tried to turn it into political profit yet; they just grab the opportunity to appear "tough on crime".

You answered your own question right there. It takes almost 0 effort for someone high up in the executive branch to kill off the American portion of bitcoin. FBI has jurisdiction on interstate commerce and the Secret Service has jurisdiction on counterfeiting (I am not saying bitcoin is counterfeiting, I'm saying they can successfully sell it to the media as an anti-counterfeiting operation).  There are dozen of bureaucrats in DC with this much power, and all they have to do is sent out a memo to their underlings. A simple email.

If they succeed, they gain political prestige. Tough on crime, war on drugs, et cetera.

If they fail, they can claim it's just part of their job. In the very worst case they are still protected by the Executive privilege.

So far, two Senators have cashed in on this free "political profit". I expect many more to follow suit. This is how ugly our democracy has become.
 
philipp
Jr. Member
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 30


View Profile
June 18, 2011, 06:38:05 PM
 #32

What we see now is two senators discovering something that can be connected to drugs, noticing that no one else tried to turn it into political profit yet; they just grab the opportunity to appear "tough on crime".

You answered your own question right there. It takes almost 0 effort for someone high up in the executive branch to kill off the American portion of bitcoin. FBI has jurisdiction on interstate commerce and the Secret Service has jurisdiction on counterfeiting (I am not saying bitcoin is counterfeiting, I'm saying they can successfully sell it to the media as an anti-counterfeiting operation).  There are dozen of bureaucrats in DC with this much power, and all they have to do is sent out a memo to their underlings. A simple email.

If they succeed, they gain political prestige. Tough on crime, war on drugs, et cetera.

If they fail, they can claim it's just part of their job. In the very worst case they are still protected by the Executive privilege.

So far, two Senators have cashed in on this free "political profit". I expect many more to follow suit. This is how ugly our democracy has become.
 

There are other senators pushing other issues the think they can get politiccal profit from. Only some of these pet issues will amke it into legislation; we, the Bitcoin community, notice these two senators, since their issue is Bitcoin. All politicions are pushing for or against some issue. I do not see why Bitcoin should be among the few issues that make it into legislation. Then I don't know that much about your democracy.
I have seen the call for internet censorship to fight CP in Germany, it became a big political issue, made it into yellow press and legislation, and nevertheless in the end it failed, with the law now revoced. Bitcoin might be in for a similar treatment, but it might take a few years.

Philipp
BradZimdack
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 87


View Profile
June 18, 2011, 06:59:10 PM
 #33

What really saddens me as much as the potential for something like bitcoin to be made illegal is that we all see it as a very real possibility.  What has our government come to when we all expect it to eventually outlaw a brilliant new innovation just because it would be something that benefits the people at the potential expense of the banking industry?!  Imagine this discussion in another context, such as the invention of cars.

Driver: "Check out my new motorized buggy!"

Observer: "The government is going to outlaw that because it will let people travel easier and it will hurt the horse industry."
AntiVigilante
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 98



View Profile
June 18, 2011, 07:09:36 PM
 #34

I do think that some governments will try to take action against bitcoin at some point in the future, and so will some banks. But I do not think that there are any governments or banks actively fighting bitcoin today.

If bitcoin fails today, it is not governments or banks winning a fight, it is bitcoin failing without any action from governments or banks.

Philipp


So why waste the opportunity to be prepared when it's easy?

Proposal: http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=11541.msg162881#msg162881
Inception: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/296
Goal: http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=12536.0
Means: Code, donations, and brutal criticism. I've got a thick skin. 1Gc3xCHAzwvTDnyMW3evBBr5qNRDN3DRpq
iamzill
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 139


View Profile
June 18, 2011, 07:25:42 PM
 #35

What we see now is two senators discovering something that can be connected to drugs, noticing that no one else tried to turn it into political profit yet; they just grab the opportunity to appear "tough on crime".

You answered your own question right there. It takes almost 0 effort for someone high up in the executive branch to kill off the American portion of bitcoin. FBI has jurisdiction on interstate commerce and the Secret Service has jurisdiction on counterfeiting (I am not saying bitcoin is counterfeiting, I'm saying they can successfully sell it to the media as an anti-counterfeiting operation).  There are dozen of bureaucrats in DC with this much power, and all they have to do is sent out a memo to their underlings. A simple email.

If they succeed, they gain political prestige. Tough on crime, war on drugs, et cetera.

If they fail, they can claim it's just part of their job. In the very worst case they are still protected by the Executive privilege.

So far, two Senators have cashed in on this free "political profit". I expect many more to follow suit. This is how ugly our democracy has become.
 

There are other senators pushing other issues the think they can get politiccal profit from. Only some of these pet issues will amke it into legislation; we, the Bitcoin community, notice these two senators, since their issue is Bitcoin. All politicions are pushing for or against some issue. I do not see why Bitcoin should be among the few issues that make it into legislation. Then I don't know that much about your democracy.
I have seen the call for internet censorship to fight CP in Germany, it became a big political issue, made it into yellow press and legislation, and nevertheless in the end it failed, with the law now revoced. Bitcoin might be in for a similar treatment, but it might take a few years.

Philipp


I emphasized "executive" twice in my post because I expect only politicians in the Executive branch can damage the bitcoin economy.

Politicians in the legislative branch are not a real threat to bitcoin because exactly like you said, legislative issues could take years to become laws and they cannot prosecute people retroactively. That means even in the worst case scenario American bitcoin users could have months to gradually leave the market, thereby minimizing their losses and with no legal precautions to worry about.

Politicians in the executive branch, on the other hand, has the ability to freeze Mt Gox's funds within a day and subpeaona the withdrawl records of all American users. Like I said before, this can be branded as "war on drugs" operation, or "anti-money laundering" operation, or "anti-tax evasion" operation. Many law enforcement agencies, such as FBI, Secret Service, and even the IRS has enough authority and manpower to accomplish this. These types of politicians are the ones I'm worried about the most.

The victory condition for them is trivially low. They do not a need a successful conviction. They do not need a successful arrest. They do not even need to press any charges against anyone. They only need a subpoena from a Federal judge to crush Mt. Gox's reputation and destroy people's trust in bitcoins. Big media will spin it into "underground currency under investigation by XXXX", then critics of bitcoins will then spin that into "bitcoins declared illegal".



Sorry if I sound like a troll, but I'm just voicing my personal fears. If anyone can point out any errors in my arguments then I would love to hear them, since it would make me sleep much better at night.

 





  
Xenomorph
Jr. Member
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 32



View Profile
June 18, 2011, 07:56:53 PM
 #36

Well, time to pack up and go home, kids.
noedaRDH
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 182


Finding Satoshi


View Profile
June 18, 2011, 08:43:55 PM
 #37

I think most of us are home, kekekeke.

1NwGKiLcAngD1KiCCivxT6EDJmyXMGqM9q

Ask not what Bitcoin can do for you - ask what you can do for Bitcoin.
theriveriswide
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 5



View Profile
June 18, 2011, 08:50:31 PM
 #38



Why would "the government" or "the banks" wnt to shut down bitcoin? Those thinking startegically about a possible loss of power due to bitcoin replacing fiat currences most likely do not see bitcoin as a real threat yet: They won't act unless bitcoin becomes a real problem for them (if they cared for every little project that showed some potential there'd be a thousand things they's have to fight at once).


My thoughts exactly.  No significant powers care about bitcoin at the moment...
Auspician
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 112



View Profile
June 18, 2011, 08:57:37 PM
 #39

iamzill:  It would be rather difficult for any US agency to shut down or subpoena Mt Gox, since it is not a US-based company.  It is located in Japan.  That said, even if they did manage to shut down Mt Gox, Bitcoin is decentralized.  The void in the market will create further incentive for new such services to arise to meet the growing demand.  And, if the fear is that the US will attempt to shut them down again, they'll simply put these companies in countries that are uncooperative with US Authorities.

Also, consider the following:

Total BTCs in circulation: approx 6,584,000
Total in Mt Gox: 29,893.83
Total percentage of BTCs held by Mt Gox: 0.45%, or 1 in 220.

Bitcoin will go on.  The single effective threat right now is for the media to demonize Bitcoin and discourage people from getting involved.  But the system has been built such that any attempt to 'shut it down' is rather likely to fail.
JTaBitCoinKing
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 28


View Profile
June 18, 2011, 10:33:31 PM
 #40

The public media in the US doesn't even take itself seriously. I doubt the corporations have a chance.
Pages: « 1 [2] 3 »  All
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Sponsored by , a Bitcoin-accepting VPN.
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!