Taxation [discussion]

[Birdy]

In the case of a huge Bitcoin success:
At one point or another the Bitcoin system will crash with the need for a tax to sustain the states.
Maybe we don't agree with a lot of things that are done by them, but we need infrastructure, education, police and so on.
We then will suffer from a lot of tries to control or destroy the bitcoin system, because the states have no other choice to do so.

What if we as Bitcoin community would offer a deal?
We could try to create a fair taxation model and integrate this into the Bitcoin system?
It would make things easier for all of us.

I know it's really difficult to create something that everyone agrees on to be fair.

Keys:
- The tax amount must not be depending on where you live
- It shouldn't be an additional transaction fee, because this would encourage hoarding
- Due to the fact that nobody can see who owns how many wallets/adresses the tax would have to be in % and be applied on every adress.
- It should provide a good chunk of the needed tax of a state
- States shouldn't be able to manipulate it in any way

We would end up in an automated system, that would end all of tax fraud
Everyone except those that try to betray, everyone else would win!


So why should we do this?

We would avoid a lot of conflicts.
Also it's a chance to create a better world, with less betrayal.


Edit:

Oh, great. I thought you were talking about TAXES. You know, where you are coerced to pay an organization that has a monopoly on violence and money, and if you don't, you will be put in a cage by goons with guns.

We're talking about free will. Well, in that case you're just talking about free market cooperation. Why then did you open this thread again?

Free will to cooperate and include this in the client to accomplish a fair and easy regulation, before the states come and force it down on us.
Because when they do, it will be everything but fair and easy.

Maybe they will enforce laws control over the internet, tax fraud is a great excuse to do so.
Maybe they will try to crush Bitcoin by banning the exchanges.
Things like that could be avoided.

[nevafuse]

No thanks.

[Birdy]

No thanks.

Why?
Could you provide some reasoning to this?

You will have to pay taxes one way or another, unless you betray.
So why not approach an open, fair way to do so?

[nevafuse]

No thanks.

Why?
Could you provide some reasoning to this?

You will have to pay taxes one way or another, unless you betray.
So why not approach an open, fair way to do so?

Betray?

Taxation is not the downfall of bitcoin, bitcoin is the downfall of taxation.

[Birdy]

No thanks.

Why?
Could you provide some reasoning to this?

You will have to pay taxes one way or another, unless you betray.
So why not approach an open, fair way to do so?

Betray?

Taxation is not the downfall of bitcoin, bitcoin is the downfall of taxation.

Anarchist, huh?
There are things that the community has to pay for together, if you like it or not.
E.g. I want a country to have schools, because I don't want to live in a world where everybody is stupid.

[tuliplover]

No thanks.

Why?
Could you provide some reasoning to this?

You will have to pay taxes one way or another, unless you betray.
So why not approach an open, fair way to do so?

So if I don't want to get robbed by some criminals, that's betrayal? Gosh, some statists are really heavily indoctrinated.

But yeah, without our wise overlords, we couldn't possibly figure out how to build roads and schools. There's no way, even
if it happened already in the past.

[tuliplover]

No thanks.

Why?
Could you provide some reasoning to this?

You will have to pay taxes one way or another, unless you betray.
So why not approach an open, fair way to do so?

Betray?

Taxation is not the downfall of bitcoin, bitcoin is the downfall of taxation.

Anarchist, huh?
There are things that the community has to pay for together, if you like it or not.
E.g. I want a country to have schools, because I don't want to live in a world where everybody is stupid.

And those who don't agree with your idea of public education, should be put in a cage, right?

[Birdy]

And those who don't agree with your idea of public education, should be put in a cage, right?

You have to pay for public education right now.

So you want Bitcoin to be a model to flee from this?
Public education was an important step for mankind, if you want to go back to the days where 90% of the people didn't had any school.
Then yeah... then I think you are stupid.

[Malawi]

If there were to be a general BTC tax, it would have to be flat and a %.

Still - It would mean that all the countries in the world would have to cooperate, and that is not really likely.
This means that if there ever is implemented some kind of general/global tax on BTC it would be a good thing, because it would also mean that all the nations would be united in a meaningful way.

Even though some seem to think that BTC will replace FIAT currencies, I think they are a tad too optimistic on behalf of BTC. Cryptocurrencies is just a suplement, it will not replace currency under national controls.

[tuliplover]

No thanks.

Why?
Could you provide some reasoning to this?

You will have to pay taxes one way or another, unless you betray.
So why not approach an open, fair way to do so?

So if I don't want to get robbed by some criminals, that's betrayal? Gosh, some statists are really heavily indoctrinated.

But yeah, without our wise overlords, we couldn't possibly figure out how to build roads and schools. There's no way, even
if it happened already in the past.

I'm not saying that the current people in poltics are doing a great job.
But providing a fair taxation model will lessen the abilities for a state and the people in it to rob someone.

How would giving them more money lessen their abilities? You think they would just say "Hey thanks, now we can erase these other taxes"?
Things don't work that way. Btw the only fair tax rate is zero, in my opinion.

[Mistafreeze]

Nope.

[Birdy]

If there were to be a general BTC tax, it would have to be flat and a %.

Still - It would mean that all the countries in the world would have to cooperate, and that is not really likely.
This means that if there ever is implemented some kind of general/global tax on BTC it would be a good thing, because it would also mean that all the nations would be united in a meaningful way.

Even though some seem to think that BTC will replace FIAT currencies, I think they are a tad too optimistic on behalf of BTC. Cryptocurrencies is just a suplement, it will not replace currency under national controls.

A flat amount will not work due to the nature of Bitcoin, so we can only work with %.

The steps to do so wouldn't be that hard.
Once we have agreed on an amount (let's say 10%), we implement the system in all clients. If a majority accepts this change (think of this: We would actually be able to vote how much we want to pay!), the states only need to say yes and can obtain money.

[nevafuse]

No thanks.

Why?
Could you provide some reasoning to this?

You will have to pay taxes one way or another, unless you betray.
So why not approach an open, fair way to do so?

Betray?

Taxation is not the downfall of bitcoin, bitcoin is the downfall of taxation.

Anarchist, huh?
There are things that the community has to pay for together, if you like it or not.
E.g. I want a country to have schools, because I don't want to live in a world where everybody is stupid.

We all have different levels of what we are willing to contribute to support a community.  Some people would rather live alone on their own without having to deal with taxes.  And others would prefer the state of things now.  I don't have a problem with either option, but bitcoin should support both.  Integrating a tax model will only cater to one of those groups.

[Birdy]

How would giving them more money lessen their abilities? You think they would just say "Hey thanks, now we can erase these other taxes"?
Things don't work that way. Btw the only fair tax rate is zero, in my opinion.

The other taxes are erased automatically by switching to Bitcoin, because there are no taxation rules for this yet.
You can also wait until there are taxation rules for Bitcoins, but I don't think it will be better.

[Birdy]

We all have different levels of what we are willing to contribute to support a community.  Some people would rather live alone on their own without having to deal with taxes.  And others would prefer the state of things now.  I don't have a problem with either option, but bitcoin should support both.  Integrating a tax model will only cater to one of those groups.

We essentially are paying for those that are not willing to contribute, so they rob us of money
Unless they are erimits.

I see that a lot of people here are are very ego-centric and it will be very difficult to agree on something.
But there are benefits to gain, if we do.

[tuliplover]

And those who don't agree with your idea of public education, should be put in a cage, right?

You have to pay for public education right now.

So you want Bitcoin to be a model to flee from this?
Public education was an important step for mankind, if you want to go back to the days where 90% of the people didn't had any school.
Then yeah... then I think you are stupid.

Previous robbery is not a justification for future robbery. I thought that was pretty obvious even for a person with public education.
People were less educated in the past because they were poorer, not because private education sucked.
States didn't take over because their way was superior, but because education is the key to control the youth and thus
the whole population over time. And because they could (by force), of course.

Anybody with eyes can see that public education has been a disaster. It's insanely expensive, doesn't give useful skills to the students
(for the most part), and it produces unthinking robots (like you) who are easily manipulated.

[nevafuse]

We all have different levels of what we are willing to contribute to support a community.  Some people would rather live alone on their own without having to deal with taxes.  And others would prefer the state of things now.  I don't have a problem with either option, but bitcoin should support both.  Integrating a tax model will only cater to one of those groups.

We essentially are paying for those that are not willing to contribute, so they rob us of money
Unless they are erimits.

I was basically saying the 2 communities would be separate and mutually exclusive.  Therefore you wouldn't be paying for the people that want to live alone & they wouldn't be able to use your services.  Kinda of like France vs Somalia.  Regardless, good luck supporting this alt chain.  I think very few people would choose an alt chain where random people take money out of their accounts, but to each their own.

[tuliplover]

We all have different levels of what we are willing to contribute to support a community.  Some people would rather live alone on their own without having to deal with taxes.  And others would prefer the state of things now.  I don't have a problem with either option, but bitcoin should support both.  Integrating a tax model will only cater to one of those groups.

We essentially are paying for those that are not willing to contribute, so they rob us of money
Unless they are erimits.

I see that a lot of people here are are very ego-centric and it will be very difficult to agree on something.
But there are benefits to gain, if we do.

So those who don't wish to be robbed are the real robbers. Orwellian doublespeak at its best.

[hiltonizer]

Statist jibber jabber... it's everywhere. BUT WHO WILL BUILD THE ROADS??!

If the internet sales tax law shit goes through, bitcoin is going to see one hell of a bump.

[WiW]

Hey Birdy buddy, you sound dumb.

You want a tax, which literally means "let's pool our money together and decide together what to do with it". But you're dumb, about as dumb as a monkey. I don't want to pool my money with a monkey and then negotiate with him what to do with it. What if he wants to eat the money? Or throw it away? Or build bombs?

Screw you, you can take my money from my cold dead hands.


P.S. nothing personal, I don't know you I'm just trying to make a point.

P.S.S. Pro-tip: never assume that new technology has to adapt to old folks like you. Usually new technology presents a new world which is different than the old.