Did BFL break an FTC rule?

[glitch003]

Check this out: http://business.ftc.gov/documents/alt051-selling-internet-prompt-delivery-rules

For definite delays of up to 30 days, you may treat the customer's silence as agreeing to the delay. But for longer or indefinite delays - and second and subsequent delays - you must get the customer's written, electronic or verbal consent to the delay. If the customer doesn't give you his okay, you must promptly refund all the money the customer paid you without being asked by the customer.

Seems like BFL has to refund everyone's money since they didn't get consent from their customers for the delay.

Has this been discussed already?  If so, just ignore/delete this thread.

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[Hiroaki]

Has been discussed.
Josh always replied that they would refund all pre-orders (at least a few months ago).


BFL broke already a few laws (in my opinion), but they can hire now the best lawyers with all pre-order money.

[charleshoskinson]

See my thread

[Minor Miner]

Has been discussed.
Josh always replied that they would refund all pre-orders (at least a few months ago).
BFL broke already a few laws (in my opinion), but they can hire now the best lawyers with all pre-order money.

No, I believe Josh responded by calling entropy (who pointed this out) a cock sucking fillapino whore that was a lying piece of shit.
that is how josh responded.   let's not gloss over the truth.

[saddambitcoin]

FTC my f ing  BFL ya ASIC POS

[Phinnaeus Gage]

Check this out: http://business.ftc.gov/documents/alt051-selling-internet-prompt-delivery-rules

For definite delays of up to 30 days, you may treat the customer's silence as agreeing to the delay. But for longer or indefinite delays - and second and subsequent delays - you must get the customer's written, electronic or verbal consent to the delay. If the customer doesn't give you his okay, you must promptly refund all the money the customer paid you without being asked by the customer.

Seems like BFL has to refund everyone's money since they didn't get consent from their customers for the delay.

Has this been discussed already?  If so, just ignore/delete this thread.

Wouldn't this make PayPal accessory to the crime?

[Logik]

Josh always replied that they would refund all pre-orders.

But if you read carefully the wording of the regulation, they must automatically refund the money, by default, unless the customer has given consent for the delay to happen. I highly doubt BFL obtained that consent..

There is another FTC/SEC law I read in someone else's post once, which was very interesting, basically about using customer's "pre-order" money as investment. But I can't find it anywhere now. The summary is that if you use customer money as investment then you're really offering a security and so should be regulated as a security. 

[Phinnaeus Gage]

Josh always replied that they would refund all pre-orders.

But if you read carefully the wording of the regulation, they must automatically refund the money, by default, unless the customer has given consent for the delay to happen. I highly doubt BFL obtained that consent..

There is another FTC/SEC law I read in someone else's post once, which was very interesting, basically about using customer's "pre-order" money as investment. But I can't find it anywhere now. The summary is that if you use customer money as investment then you're really offering a security and so should be regulated as a security. 

Sonny Vleisides should have no problem registering with the SEC provided, of course, the paperwork is handled by a Kansas chicken farmer.

[repentance]

Wouldn't this make PayPal accessory to the crime?

PayPal has no way of knowing that delivery has been delayed unless customers tell them. They also have no way of knowing whether customers have consented to that delay.  Absent an order from a consumer protection agency, they're probably on dodgy legal ground if they just reverse all payments made to BFL via PayPal. 

[danieldaniel]

Wouldn't this make PayPal accessory to the crime?

PayPal has no way of knowing that delivery has been delayed unless customers tell them. They also have no way of knowing whether customers have consented to that delay.  Absent an order from a consumer protection agency, they're probably on dodgy legal ground if they just reverse all payments made to BFL via PayPal. 

I would assume that if a customer calls up PayPal and cites this law, they'd probably reverse it.  It seems like it would be the equivalent as "I didn't get the item."

[repentance]

I would assume that if a customer calls up PayPal and cites this law, they'd probably reverse it.  It seems like it would be the equivalent as "I didn't get the item."

On an individual basis, sure - but you don't need to cite that law to get PayPal to reverse a transaction for non-delivery anyway.  PayPal is notorious for siding with purchasers in disputes (technically this wouldn't be a dispute unless BFL refused a refund but people do charge backs all the time instead of requesting refunds).

[🏰 TradeFortress 🏰]

How about making a complaint to the FTC?

[Phinnaeus Gage]

Wouldn't this make PayPal accessory to the crime?

PayPal has no way of knowing that delivery has been delayed unless customers tell them. They also have no way of knowing whether customers have consented to that delay.  Absent an order from a consumer protection agency, they're probably on dodgy legal ground if they just reverse all payments made to BFL via PayPal.  

What I was trying to point out is that if they have received X amount of calls/complaints/concerns, yet don't do anything about it, then they are perpetually the ruse.

But given that BFL is on record in stating that a certain amount of PP orders need to be fulfil, we can assume that PP's trying their damndest to stay in front of this developing situation.

PP is probably happy to read in the Wire article that BFL will be shipping upwards of 150 units within the next few weeks.

PayPal is probably also happy to see that they acted as the liaison between parties to have illegal products shipped across state lines (think FCC).

[roy7]

The FTC link doesn't mention it one way or the other, but I doubt that is intended to cover pre-orders of unfinished products. It seems the intent is to prevent undisclosed delays in shipping finished products? I'm thinking of times I've pre-ordered video games that missed their release dates, for instance.

Still, that was a very interesting link. I'd never heard of the 30-day rule.

[glitch003]

The FTC link doesn't mention it one way or the other, but I doubt that is intended to cover pre-orders of unfinished products. It seems the intent is to prevent undisclosed delays in shipping finished products? I'm thinking of times I've pre-ordered video games that missed their release dates, for instance.

Still, that was a very interesting link. I'd never heard of the 30-day rule.

I definitely understand what you're saying, but they didn't just miss their release date by a little bit, it's almost been a year now.

I think it's time to start filing FTC complaints about this.  https://www.ftccomplaintassistant.gov/FTC_Wizard.aspx?Lang=en

[zenrith]

http://kslegislature.org/li_2012/b2011_12/statute/050_000_0000_chapter/050_006_0000_article/050_006_0027_section/050_006_0027_k/

The following link got me banned from bfl forum today.  Thought I would share with the rest of world how petty the bfL forum moderator is.

Specifically read section b(3).

Enjoy.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

http://kslegislature.org/li_2012/b2011_12/statute/050_000_0000_chapter/050_006_0000_article/050_006_0027_section/050_006_0027_k/

The following link got me banned from bfl forum today.  Thought I would share with the rest of world how petty the bfL forum moderator is.

Specifically read section b(3).

Enjoy.

Start a new account, but next time don't hit so close to home.

The supplier took advantage of the inability of the consumer reasonably to protect the consumer's interests because of the consumer's physical infirmity, ignorance, illiteracy, inability to understand the language of an agreement or similar factor;

[Viceroy]

This is the evidence there is a scam going on:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=110805.640