A Federal judge in new York has not recognized bitcoin as money

[Taki]

Maybe it is for better, cause of they don't accept bitcoin as money there is no needs to pay taxes form bitcoin earnings, as we pay it from our salaries.

[Sithara007]

That is why merchants dont accept the foreign currencies. Because its not worth anything to them. They cant pay their expenses with it nor their taxes. The need to convert it which is very tedious because some currencies need to go through the US dollar first. From the point of view of a merchant from Kenya, the Japanese Yen is something he can wipe his ass with.

Japanese Yen is a currency which can be easily exchanged anywhere in the world. I am sure that there are hundreds of currency exchanges in Kenya, which accept the JPY. If you are talking about currencies such as the Lebanese pound, then I'd somewhat agree. But don't say that it is completely worthless. You can find a trader in Lebanon or some other country, and then use Western Union to exchange the money.

[xuan87]

Bitcoin still in grey area, but no country make any decisions whether bitcoin is money or not, some country adapted bitcoin and we can used it to pay things but still not recognised as money, so actually it's quite confusing, but it is a good thing if not considered as money so when we exchange bitcoin we won't be accused of money laundering

[omonuyak]

Were they see it as money from beginning? I don't think so. The governments are hiding from the through, they know that as far as they cannot destroyed bitcoin the only way is to arrest traders and said they are doing money laundry through bitcoin. Governments should no that bitcoin is decentralized! And that it can not stop bitcoin to perform role of money in our societies.

[shinratensei_]

Bitcoin still in grey area, but no country make any decisions whether bitcoin is money or not,

May you read the title again? Newyork and it's a part of USA.  

some country adapted bitcoin and we can used it to pay things but still not recognised as money, so actually it's quite confusing, but it is a good thing if not considered as money so when we exchange bitcoin we won't be accused of money laundering

Only japan and no more. Japan already determined bitcoin as legal payment which means if bitcoin can be determined as a legal currency in his country, but not for another country. They're just announcing about the bitcoin not for the legal status of bitcoin itself.

[darthmaul]

Everybody would want bitcoin not to be recognised as money. It is working best in the way it works currently. Investing in it as commodity is the best way to keep bitcoin alive for long time. Also how can we forget our huge profits that it has given back for our investments. Also if people start using bitcoin in terms of illegal activities them they will have to pay for it. :-)

[pinkflower]

Another thing to discuss is its also good if the government or whoever starts accepting BTC as a currency. It would mean we could also pay our taxes with it. One of fiat's important function is to pay what we owe the government with it. Its one property that makes fiat valuable

It is highly unlikely that any major government will ever go that route

Since that would effectively mean creating competition for the local currency which these governments print. Why would they want that? By going that way, they will be shooting themselves in the foot. Though some minor governments (and especially those which are already using some foreign currency as a legal tender) may in fact accept Bitcoin as a legitimate payment for taxes provided its price stabilizes over long enough term (but no sooner than that)

Yeah that was the point. I was trying to show where fiat gets its value from, and thats because governments accept them as payment for your dues. To be defined as real currency, BTC has to be accepted by the government for tax payments

In fact, this is a shaky argument

If not to say that it is a completely false one. There are over 100 fiat currencies in the world, and only a few are accepted as legal tender in more than one country. In general, one specific currency is accepted in only one country, namely, where this currency happens to be printed. So, according to your reasoning, any foreign currency is not a real one, right? You may claim, of course, that at least one country should accept a currency to be considered as "real" but if some tiny and utterly inconsequential government accepts Bitcoin as legal payment for taxes, what would it essentially change? Would it make Bitcoin into a "real" currency?

That is why merchants dont accept the foreign currencies. Because its not worth anything to them. They cant pay their expenses with it nor their taxes. The need to convert it which is very tedious because some currncies need to go through the US dollar first. From the point of view of a merchant from Kenya, the Japanese Yen is something he can wipe his ass with

So you basically confirm that any fiat currency, maybe, only apart from the major ones that are universally accepted (like the US dollar) are not real ones from a view-point of someone to whom they are of no use. In this way, they are not real currencies, and the whole issue can be happily reduced to what someone thinks about a specific currency (more specifically, whether he can pay taxes with it or not, as per your reasoning). If so, how Bitcoin is different from all these other "unreal" currencies then?

Note that for a Kenyan merchant it is of no importance if someone can pay taxes somewhere with the Japanese Yen

Up to some extent, yes the Japanese Yen will always be useless for a guy in Kenya. But imagine this. If the Kenyan government start accepting Japanese Yen as payment for their people's taxes then everything about it changes. Its like a license for everybody in Kenya to start accepting it.

[Aikonio]

Everybody would want bitcoin not to be recognised as money. It is working best in the way it works currently. Investing in it as commodity is the best way to keep bitcoin alive for long time. Also how can we forget our huge profits that it has given back for our investments. Also if people start using bitcoin in terms of illegal activities them they will have to pay for it. :-)

Yes, it's better for bitcoin. Now you can make good money by investing in coins and you do not need to pay tax for it.

[deisik]

So you basically confirm that any fiat currency, maybe, only apart from the major ones that are universally accepted (like the US dollar) are not real ones from a view-point of someone to whom they are of no use. In this way, they are not real currencies, and the whole issue can be happily reduced to what someone thinks about a specific currency (more specifically, whether he can pay taxes with it or not, as per your reasoning). If so, how Bitcoin is different from all these other "unreal" currencies then?

Note that for a Kenyan merchant it is of no importance if someone can pay taxes somewhere with the Japanese Yen

Up to some extent, yes the Japanese Yen will always be useless for a guy in Kenya. But imagine this. If the Kenyan government start accepting Japanese Yen as payment for their people's taxes then everything about it changes. Its like a license for everybody in Kenya to start accepting it

And what does it change in respect to your original claim?

Namely, that Bitcoin is not a currency since it is not accepted as a legal tender anywhere if other currencies are not accepted either (apart from their home countries, of course). Indeed, if the Japanese Yen is adopted by Kenyan government for payment of taxes, it will become quite useful in Kenya, but I could just as well say that the same is equally applicable to Bitcoin. In fact, the chances of some government (like that of Kenya) to accept Bitcoin seem to be a lot higher than accepting the Japanese Yen since the latter is one of many other fiat currencies out there while Bitcoin is unique (even among cryptocurrencies). Strictly speaking, the Japanese Yen is one of the major currencies along with the US dollar, British pound, Swiss franc and Euro

[pinkflower]

So you basically confirm that any fiat currency, maybe, only apart from the major ones that are universally accepted (like the US dollar) are not real ones from a view-point of someone to whom they are of no use. In this way, they are not real currencies, and the whole issue can be happily reduced to what someone thinks about a specific currency (more specifically, whether he can pay taxes with it or not, as per your reasoning). If so, how Bitcoin is different from all these other "unreal" currencies then?

Note that for a Kenyan merchant it is of no importance if someone can pay taxes somewhere with the Japanese Yen

Up to some extent, yes the Japanese Yen will always be useless for a guy in Kenya. But imagine this. If the Kenyan government start accepting Japanese Yen as payment for their people's taxes then everything about it changes. Its like a license for everybody in Kenya to start accepting it

And what does it change in respect to your original claim?

Namely, that Bitcoin is not a currency since it is not accepted as a legal tender anywhere if other currencies are not accepted either (apart from their home countries, of course). Indeed, if the Japanese Yen is adopted by Kenyan government for payment of taxes, it will become quite useful in Kenya, but I could just as well say that the same is equally applicable to Bitcoin. In fact, the chances of some government (like that of Kenya) to accept Bitcoin seem to be a lot higher than accepting the Japanese Yen since the latter is one of many other fiat currencies out there while Bitcoin is unique (even among cryptocurrencies). Strictly speaking, the Japanese Yen is one of the major currencies along with the US dollar, British pound, Swiss franc and Euro

Yeah the same situation with the guy in Kenya who wont accept Japanese Yen as payment because he cant pay his taxes are quite often cant buy anything with them in his country. People could choose to accept something like BTC because its a novelty but think about if its useful for an ordinary store in your country. Its better to accept the local currency.

[deisik]

So you basically confirm that any fiat currency, maybe, only apart from the major ones that are universally accepted (like the US dollar) are not real ones from a view-point of someone to whom they are of no use. In this way, they are not real currencies, and the whole issue can be happily reduced to what someone thinks about a specific currency (more specifically, whether he can pay taxes with it or not, as per your reasoning). If so, how Bitcoin is different from all these other "unreal" currencies then?

Note that for a Kenyan merchant it is of no importance if someone can pay taxes somewhere with the Japanese Yen

Up to some extent, yes the Japanese Yen will always be useless for a guy in Kenya. But imagine this. If the Kenyan government start accepting Japanese Yen as payment for their people's taxes then everything about it changes. Its like a license for everybody in Kenya to start accepting it

And what does it change in respect to your original claim?

Namely, that Bitcoin is not a currency since it is not accepted as a legal tender anywhere if other currencies are not accepted either (apart from their home countries, of course). Indeed, if the Japanese Yen is adopted by Kenyan government for payment of taxes, it will become quite useful in Kenya, but I could just as well say that the same is equally applicable to Bitcoin. In fact, the chances of some government (like that of Kenya) to accept Bitcoin seem to be a lot higher than accepting the Japanese Yen since the latter is one of many other fiat currencies out there while Bitcoin is unique (even among cryptocurrencies). Strictly speaking, the Japanese Yen is one of the major currencies along with the US dollar, British pound, Swiss franc and Euro

Yeah the same situation with the guy in Kenya who wont accept Japanese Yen as payment because he cant pay his taxes are quite often cant buy anything with them in his country. People could choose to accept something like BTC because its a novelty but think about if its useful for an ordinary store in your country. Its better to accept the local currency

I think an analogy with gold would be better here

Gold is not a legal tender anywhere in the world unless we talk about local gold coins accepted at their face value (i.e. way below there real worth). It is considered as money even less than Bitcoin. Gold is recognized everywhere in the world, though it is still not very useful for daily expenses (just like Bitcoin as such). But you can still exchange it for local currency since it is valued across borders. Bitcoin is in the category of things universally valued, and many countries have exchanges that will allow you to convert your bitcoins to local currencies without much ado

[pinkflower]

So you basically confirm that any fiat currency, maybe, only apart from the major ones that are universally accepted (like the US dollar) are not real ones from a view-point of someone to whom they are of no use. In this way, they are not real currencies, and the whole issue can be happily reduced to what someone thinks about a specific currency (more specifically, whether he can pay taxes with it or not, as per your reasoning). If so, how Bitcoin is different from all these other "unreal" currencies then?

Note that for a Kenyan merchant it is of no importance if someone can pay taxes somewhere with the Japanese Yen

Up to some extent, yes the Japanese Yen will always be useless for a guy in Kenya. But imagine this. If the Kenyan government start accepting Japanese Yen as payment for their people's taxes then everything about it changes. Its like a license for everybody in Kenya to start accepting it

And what does it change in respect to your original claim?

Namely, that Bitcoin is not a currency since it is not accepted as a legal tender anywhere if other currencies are not accepted either (apart from their home countries, of course). Indeed, if the Japanese Yen is adopted by Kenyan government for payment of taxes, it will become quite useful in Kenya, but I could just as well say that the same is equally applicable to Bitcoin. In fact, the chances of some government (like that of Kenya) to accept Bitcoin seem to be a lot higher than accepting the Japanese Yen since the latter is one of many other fiat currencies out there while Bitcoin is unique (even among cryptocurrencies). Strictly speaking, the Japanese Yen is one of the major currencies along with the US dollar, British pound, Swiss franc and Euro

Yeah the same situation with the guy in Kenya who wont accept Japanese Yen as payment because he cant pay his taxes are quite often cant buy anything with them in his country. People could choose to accept something like BTC because its a novelty but think about if its useful for an ordinary store in your country. Its better to accept the local currency

I think an analogy with gold would be better here

Gold is not a legal tender anywhere in the world unless we talk about local gold coins accepted at their face value (i.e. way below there real worth). It is considered as money even less than Bitcoin. Gold is recognized everywhere in the world, though it is still not very useful for daily expenses (just like Bitcoin as such). But you can still exchange it for local currency since it is valued across borders. Bitcoin is in the category of things universally valued, and many countries have exchanges that will allow you to convert your bitcoins to local currencies without much ado

With gold its still a maybe. Maybe your small mom and pop store will accept your gold and bear with the conversion costs and the labor of going somewhere to exchnage them from you. But if you go to a gas station do you think theyll accept your gold? Maybe they will only because its stable and have been used as a store of value for thousands of years. Bitcoin cant claim the same.

[lionheart78]

Only japan and no more. Japan already determined bitcoin as legal payment which means if bitcoin can be determined as a legal currency in his country, but not for another country. They're just announcing about the bitcoin not for the legal status of bitcoin itself.

Philippines recognized Bitcoin as money.  Some state of USA is considering Bitcoin as money (though this won't count for now).  So this will at least add to your info that not only Japan see Bitcoin as money. 


I guess the decision were issued because there is not enough basis for Bitcoin to be considered as money during that time.  So definitely the judge will issue  a dismissal since the charges is proven not supported by written legalities about Bitcoin.

[MingLee]

I thought that someone else had ruled Bitcoin as an asset that was to be defined and taxed in the same way that "capital gains" assets are taxed, but that was a while ago and things change so I might be wrong. This doesn't surprise me though, and chances are they want to get more of a cut through taxes for the future. I don't know if that's a fair comment, but the US judicial system is kind of weird so I dunno what to expect in the future.

[shield132]

People think a little, if you think that bitcoin isn't money, than why do you want it? Especially sig camp people, your say that bitcoin isn't money for you but I believe you exchange it on money immediately when you receive it.
Let's be honest, it's possible to exchange btc so this means it's money, it has it's value.
And someone said that if bitcoin will be considered as money, we have to pay fees. Well, when you exchange it. aren't you paying fees? But exchanger coveres fees of goverment and they take another part of fee for theirself.

[olubams]

A Federal judge in new York has recommended to cancel the charges of money laundering on local business based on the definition that Bitcoin does not fall under the definition of money. Instead, the judge Hugh B. Scott ruled that Bitcoin is more like a commodity. While he noted that Bitcoin might one day become so reasonable that it can be considered as money, Scott suggested that he currently has more in common with collectibles such as trading cards and other novelty items.
The case involved a 31-year-old man who allegedly sold Bitcoins for $13 000 to the agent in an attempt to launder money and distribute drugs. However, the interpretation of Scott was adopted by the district judge of the United States Charles Siragusa, who expressed skepticism about the possible consequences.
This is a controversial issue, so lawyers for the defendants said that they will try to withdraw the petition. In this situation, the protection refers to the scepticism of Siragusa as a defining factor in their current strategy. Lawyers of the defendant also stressed that their client is in no way connected with the so-called darknet market and just traded Bitcoins, like other trading "baseball cards, stamps or coins."

I really don't have any issue with the interpretation the judge is giving because everyone is entitled to his/her opinion the same way we have other people who believes bitcoin is a form of HYIP but whats different here is because the Judge is in a position in which his opinion is having some influence over others and until there is a clear cut law on the subject matter, there will always be issue like this going forward and another judge in Nebraska can think differently on the same issue.

[deisik]

So you basically confirm that any fiat currency, maybe, only apart from the major ones that are universally accepted (like the US dollar) are not real ones from a view-point of someone to whom they are of no use. In this way, they are not real currencies, and the whole issue can be happily reduced to what someone thinks about a specific currency (more specifically, whether he can pay taxes with it or not, as per your reasoning). If so, how Bitcoin is different from all these other "unreal" currencies then?

Note that for a Kenyan merchant it is of no importance if someone can pay taxes somewhere with the Japanese Yen

Up to some extent, yes the Japanese Yen will always be useless for a guy in Kenya. But imagine this. If the Kenyan government start accepting Japanese Yen as payment for their people's taxes then everything about it changes. Its like a license for everybody in Kenya to start accepting it

And what does it change in respect to your original claim?

Namely, that Bitcoin is not a currency since it is not accepted as a legal tender anywhere if other currencies are not accepted either (apart from their home countries, of course). Indeed, if the Japanese Yen is adopted by Kenyan government for payment of taxes, it will become quite useful in Kenya, but I could just as well say that the same is equally applicable to Bitcoin. In fact, the chances of some government (like that of Kenya) to accept Bitcoin seem to be a lot higher than accepting the Japanese Yen since the latter is one of many other fiat currencies out there while Bitcoin is unique (even among cryptocurrencies). Strictly speaking, the Japanese Yen is one of the major currencies along with the US dollar, British pound, Swiss franc and Euro

Yeah the same situation with the guy in Kenya who wont accept Japanese Yen as payment because he cant pay his taxes are quite often cant buy anything with them in his country. People could choose to accept something like BTC because its a novelty but think about if its useful for an ordinary store in your country. Its better to accept the local currency

I think an analogy with gold would be better here

Gold is not a legal tender anywhere in the world unless we talk about local gold coins accepted at their face value (i.e. way below there real worth). It is considered as money even less than Bitcoin. Gold is recognized everywhere in the world, though it is still not very useful for daily expenses (just like Bitcoin as such). But you can still exchange it for local currency since it is valued across borders. Bitcoin is in the category of things universally valued, and many countries have exchanges that will allow you to convert your bitcoins to local currencies without much ado

With gold its still a maybe. Maybe your small mom and pop store will accept your gold and bear with the conversion costs and the labor of going somewhere to exchnage them from you. But if you go to a gas station do you think theyll accept your gold? Maybe they will only because its stable and have been used as a store of value for thousands of years. Bitcoin cant claim the same

You are severely sidestepping your original point

Nevertheless, I'm still inclined to think that at a Kenyan gas station you would fare a lot better with gold than Japanese Yen (or some obscure currency the name of which neither of us has ever heard). And this is what my point is basically about. In any country you could sell your gold. It may take time and effort, but this is a way better than to get stuck, say, with Albanian Lek somewhere in Uruguay. The same is essentially applicable to Bitcoin as well, and that has nothing to do with its being novice and whatnot

[Silberman]

A Federal judge in new York has recommended to cancel the charges of money laundering on local business based on the definition that Bitcoin does not fall under the definition of money. Instead, the judge Hugh B. Scott ruled that Bitcoin is more like a commodity. While he noted that Bitcoin might one day become so reasonable that it can be considered as money, Scott suggested that he currently has more in common with collectibles such as trading cards and other novelty items.
The case involved a 31-year-old man who allegedly sold Bitcoins for $13 000 to the agent in an attempt to launder money and distribute drugs. However, the interpretation of Scott was adopted by the district judge of the United States Charles Siragusa, who expressed skepticism about the possible consequences.
This is a controversial issue, so lawyers for the defendants said that they will try to withdraw the petition. In this situation, the protection refers to the scepticism of Siragusa as a defining factor in their current strategy. Lawyers of the defendant also stressed that their client is in no way connected with the so-called darknet market and just traded Bitcoins, like other trading "baseball cards, stamps or coins."

Bitcoin is money, but if they don’t want to recognize it as such then take advantage of it, this means that you can exchange it as you see fit, and not to have to report it, while it may seem bitcoin not being recognized as a currency is bad I think this is a good news

[darklus123]

In some ways it is good for the 31 year old guy who is a bitcoin user. Yet i cannot agree on the fact that this is not a money bitcoin is a currency which for me equates to a form gold money

[pinkflower]

So you basically confirm that any fiat currency, maybe, only apart from the major ones that are universally accepted (like the US dollar) are not real ones from a view-point of someone to whom they are of no use. In this way, they are not real currencies, and the whole issue can be happily reduced to what someone thinks about a specific currency (more specifically, whether he can pay taxes with it or not, as per your reasoning). If so, how Bitcoin is different from all these other "unreal" currencies then?

Note that for a Kenyan merchant it is of no importance if someone can pay taxes somewhere with the Japanese Yen

Up to some extent, yes the Japanese Yen will always be useless for a guy in Kenya. But imagine this. If the Kenyan government start accepting Japanese Yen as payment for their people's taxes then everything about it changes. Its like a license for everybody in Kenya to start accepting it

And what does it change in respect to your original claim?

Namely, that Bitcoin is not a currency since it is not accepted as a legal tender anywhere if other currencies are not accepted either (apart from their home countries, of course). Indeed, if the Japanese Yen is adopted by Kenyan government for payment of taxes, it will become quite useful in Kenya, but I could just as well say that the same is equally applicable to Bitcoin. In fact, the chances of some government (like that of Kenya) to accept Bitcoin seem to be a lot higher than accepting the Japanese Yen since the latter is one of many other fiat currencies out there while Bitcoin is unique (even among cryptocurrencies). Strictly speaking, the Japanese Yen is one of the major currencies along with the US dollar, British pound, Swiss franc and Euro

Yeah the same situation with the guy in Kenya who wont accept Japanese Yen as payment because he cant pay his taxes are quite often cant buy anything with them in his country. People could choose to accept something like BTC because its a novelty but think about if its useful for an ordinary store in your country. Its better to accept the local currency

I think an analogy with gold would be better here

Gold is not a legal tender anywhere in the world unless we talk about local gold coins accepted at their face value (i.e. way below there real worth). It is considered as money even less than Bitcoin. Gold is recognized everywhere in the world, though it is still not very useful for daily expenses (just like Bitcoin as such). But you can still exchange it for local currency since it is valued across borders. Bitcoin is in the category of things universally valued, and many countries have exchanges that will allow you to convert your bitcoins to local currencies without much ado

With gold its still a maybe. Maybe your small mom and pop store will accept your gold and bear with the conversion costs and the labor of going somewhere to exchnage them from you. But if you go to a gas station do you think theyll accept your gold? Maybe they will only because its stable and have been used as a store of value for thousands of years. Bitcoin cant claim the same

You are severely sidestepping your original point

Nevertheless, I'm still inclined to think that at a Kenyan gas station you would fare a lot better with gold than Japanese Yen (or some obscure currency the name of which neither of us has ever heard). And this is what my point is basically about. In any country you could sell your gold. It may take time and effort, but this is a way better than to get stuck, say, with Albanian Lek somewhere in Uruguay. The same is essentially applicable to Bitcoin as well, and that has nothing to do with its being novice and whatnot

My original point was a currency of some country would be useless to another country because each of their governments wont accept another country's currency to pay as tax. If the United States government started to accept BTC for tax payments try to imagine what effect that would bring to it.