AMEX inquiry of BFL

[Geremia]

Here's what I wrote (I was limited to a certain # of characters):

I've been trying to contact BFL (butterflylabs.com), but they have not responded. My order was charged before even shipping, and this company has been suspected of being a scam because they do not estimate when your order will be shipped, and people have been waiting for their products for over a year, with no proof BFL will actually deliver them, and PayPal is disputing with BFL to deliver. Pressure them to deliver or reverse my transaction. thx

I am going to contact PayPal as well. I think we should pressure credit card companies and PayPal to investigate BFL.

[grue]

Here's what I wrote (I was limited to a certain # of characters):

I've been trying to contact BFL (butterflylabs.com), but they have not responded. My order was charged before even shipping, and this company has been suspected of being a scam because they do not estimate when your order will be shipped, and people have been waiting for their products for over a year, with no proof BFL will actually deliver them, and PayPal is disputing with BFL to deliver. Pressure them to deliver or reverse my transaction. thx

you lost all your credibility right there. Also, you got a huge run-on sentence in the middle.

[infebious]

Then there's the fact that they actually are shipping products (twitter.com/bfl_news) albeit not in the quantity or manner they initially predicted.  Did you place an order on a credit card hoping you would pay the next bill with your mining earnings?

[LazyOtto]

"waiting for their products for over a year"

It never helps your credibility when you start out with a falsehood.

[Geremia]

"waiting for their products for over a year"

It never helps your credibility when you start out with a falsehood.

How is that false?

[LazyOtto]

What product has one been able to order for over a year which is yet to be delivered?

-- edit - more neutral language

[Geremia]

Also, you got a huge run-on sentence in the middle.

Haha at least it wasn't a sentence fragment.

[Monster Tent]

All of their ads say nothing about these being preorders so people are being misled.

[Geremia]

What product has one been able to order for over a year which is yet to be delivered?

At the time of writing that I didn't realize they started accepting orders in June 2012. I thought it was earlier.

[Geremia]

I just received a letter from American Express today saying they are beginning their investigation of BFL, but it could take up to 6-8 weeks. Hopefully it'll prod BFL to deliver.

[Entropy-uc]

I just received a letter from American Express today saying they are beginning their investigation of BFL, but it could take up to 6-8 weeks. Hopefully it'll prod BFL to deliver.

They cannot deliver what they don't have.

Your own greed clouds your judgement.  You recognize that BFL's business practices are unethical but you are so eager to get your hands on their magic box that you still give your money to them.

Since it will still be months to take delivery from them, it is easy to calculate that it is more profitable to buy gear from friedcat or other sources for immediate delivery than it is to pay Josh's 'bargain' price.

[stripykitteh]

I just received a letter from American Express today saying they are beginning their investigation of BFL, but it could take up to 6-8 weeks. Hopefully it'll prod BFL to deliver.

They cannot deliver what they don't have.

Your own greed clouds your judgement.  You recognize that BFL's business practices are unethical but you are so eager to get your hands on their magic box that you still give your money to them.

Since it will still be months to take delivery from them, it is easy to calculate that it is more profitable to buy gear from friedcat or other sources for immediate delivery than it is to pay Josh's 'bargain' price.

I ordered on April 10. I came to the same conclusion a few days ago and I cancelled yesterday. The spammy "we're shipping" email pushed me into action. The hardest thing was realizing I made a mistake and had to correct it, but I feel very comfortable with the decision.

I don't think is going to end well for the majority of their customers, certainly anyone who ordered in the last couple of months (which is where the majority of their orders came from).

[Entropy-uc]

I just received a letter from American Express today saying they are beginning their investigation of BFL, but it could take up to 6-8 weeks. Hopefully it'll prod BFL to deliver.

They cannot deliver what they don't have.

Your own greed clouds your judgement.  You recognize that BFL's business practices are unethical but you are so eager to get your hands on their magic box that you still give your money to them.

Since it will still be months to take delivery from them, it is easy to calculate that it is more profitable to buy gear from friedcat or other sources for immediate delivery than it is to pay Josh's 'bargain' price.

I ordered on April 10. I came to the same conclusion a few days ago and I cancelled yesterday. The spammy "we're shipping" email pushed me into action. The hardest thing was realizing I made a mistake and had to correct it, but I feel very comfortable with the decision.

I don't think is going to end well for the majority of their customers, certainly anyone who ordered in the last couple of months (which is where the majority of their orders came from).

A wise decision.

Depending on how you look at things, it's not just recent buyers who are certain to do poorly.  Many people emptied their bitcoin reserves to buy last summer.   It took over 200 BTC to buy a single back then. My estimates of future hash rates suggest that recovery of that bitcoin will never happen.  On a dollar basis they might still do quite well, of course.  But so has everyone else that has been mining for the past year, and some of us have Bitcoin in hand to convert to profits.  :-)

In terms of opportunity costs, that 200 BTC could have bought 40 GH/s from friedcat this week.  Or nearly 4 round 2 Avalons (270 GH/s) that should arrive by the end of May.  And don't even think about what investing it with friedcat last fall would have done instead of investing it in BFL.

[repentance]

"waiting for their products for over a year"

It never helps your credibility when you start out with a falsehood.

How is that false?

The first pre-orders weren't taken until late June 2012.

[stripykitteh]

I just received a letter from American Express today saying they are beginning their investigation of BFL, but it could take up to 6-8 weeks. Hopefully it'll prod BFL to deliver.

They cannot deliver what they don't have.

Your own greed clouds your judgement.  You recognize that BFL's business practices are unethical but you are so eager to get your hands on their magic box that you still give your money to them.

Since it will still be months to take delivery from them, it is easy to calculate that it is more profitable to buy gear from friedcat or other sources for immediate delivery than it is to pay Josh's 'bargain' price.

I ordered on April 10. I came to the same conclusion a few days ago and I cancelled yesterday. The spammy "we're shipping" email pushed me into action. The hardest thing was realizing I made a mistake and had to correct it, but I feel very comfortable with the decision.

I don't think is going to end well for the majority of their customers, certainly anyone who ordered in the last couple of months (which is where the majority of their orders came from).

A wise decision.

Depending on how you look at things, it's not just recent buyers who are certain to do poorly.  Many people emptied their bitcoin reserves to buy last summer.   It took over 200 BTC to buy a single back then. My estimates of future hash rates suggest that recovery of that bitcoin will never happen, unless you were one of the 5 or 6 people who got Jalepenos in the last few weeks.  On a dollar basis they might still do quite well, of course.  But so has everyone else that has been mining for the past year, and some of us have Bitcoin in hand to convert to profits.  :-)

In terms of opportunity costs, that 200 BTC could have bought 40 GH/s from friedcat this week.  Or nearly 4 round 2 Avalons (270 GH/s) that should arrive by the end of May.  And don't even think about what investing it with friedcat last fall would have done instead of investing it in BFL.

Yes, though it wasn't clear then out of the 3 ASIC companies who the winners and losers were going to be. Or should that be winners and loser. In this 3 horse race 3rd place doesn't pay, it's a fail.

[Entropy-uc]

Yes, though it wasn't clear then out of the 3 ASIC companies who the winners and losers were going to be. Or should that be winners and loser. In this 3 horse race 3rd place doesn't pay, it's a fail.

Amusingly enough, the only reason there was a race was because BFL wanted to poison the FPGA market where real credible competition had arisen, choking off their cash flow.

Without their fraudulent announcement and schedule, we would probably only see ASIC development starting now as the price increase and improved acceptance of BTC finally justifies the risks.

[stripykitteh]

Yes, though it wasn't clear then out of the 3 ASIC companies who the winners and losers were going to be. Or should that be winners and loser. In this 3 horse race 3rd place doesn't pay, it's a fail.

Amusingly enough, the only reason there was a race was because BFL wanted to poison the FPGA market where real credible competition had arisen, choking off their cash flow.

Without their fraudulent announcement and schedule, we would probably only see ASIC development starting now as the price increase and improved acceptance of BTC finally justifies the risks.

Sort of like the Space Race only taking 13 years from Sputnik to Apollo 11.

I cannot believe they still have 'July' as their estimated shipping date. Where I live (Australia) they would have been taken to court for misleading and deceptive conduct ages ago. At the moment their strategy appears to be to give a refund to anyone who screams for one (I had to raise a dispute with Paypal to get mine, my emails were ignored). But that's not gonna work anymore when everyone stops believing the promises and heads for the exit at the same time. Anyone who agreed to the changes in the contract of sale yesterday will find out that time is not an essential term of the contract and BFL have an unlimited amount of time to deliver.

[Geremia]

They cannot deliver what they don't have.

That's just an assumption on your part.

You recognize that BFL's business practices are unethical but you are so eager to get your hands on their magic box that you still give your money to them.

I am not sure they are unethical, despite having evidence that could make it seem they are; I'd like to assume they're not until proven guilty.

[repentance]

Your post history shows that you claim to have ordered this month (I presume you actually mean April).  Last month BFL's website was definitely saying that delivery may take two months or more after order and that all sales are final.  It still does.  Accuracy doesn't seem to be your thing.

[Geremia]

Your post history shows that you claim to have ordered this month (I presume you actually mean April).  Last month BFL's website was definitely saying that delivery may take two months or more after order and that all sales are final.  It still does.  Accuracy doesn't seem to be your thing.

Yes, I remember that.