Loan 782.1 BTC. To pay 2.3% interest per month. or 800 BTC

[Dabs]

Hi,

I want to borrow 782.1 BTC.
I will pay back 800.0 BTC in 1 or 2 months.

800.0 - 782.1 = 17.9
17.9 / 782.1 = 0.0229

That is an effective interest rate of 2.3%

I will borrow in BTC, I will pay back in BTC. No fiat involved.

Purpose of Loan: To jump start a Group Buy for Avalon ASIC Chips.

Their minimum order quantity is 10,000 (Ten Thousand) chips for a total of 782.1 BTC including shipping. The collateral is therefore, the 10,000 chips.

It all started when Zefir made his first group buy, or distribution of chips. He ordered his own 10,000 chips, and resold them for a 9.9% gross profit. In a span of 1 or 2 weeks, he managed to order 5 batches or 50,000 chips. All paid in BTC. He is effectively ending his ordering and distribution by the end of April.

His thread is here:
[ANN] Avalon ASIC chip distribution

Zefir is located in Switzerland.

Almost simultaneously, someone else started a group buy with slightly different mechanics in the United States.
[Group Buy#1] Avalon ASICs CHIPS! Using JohnK as escrow! FINISHED!

It took him a bit longer, they used John K as escrow, and over all there were a lot of head aches. He did manage to finish it, and proceeded with another batch.
[Group Buy#2] Avalon ASICs CHIPS! United States of America!

Because Zefir is not going to continue his chip distribution after May, several others, including myself, have offered to facilitate Group Buys in different Continents, or different Countries.

[Group Buy] Avalon ASIC Chips, Germany (SebastianJu)
[Group Buy] Avalon ASIC Chips - Escrow by John K. (Eastern Europe / Romania)
[Group Buy] Avalon ASIC Chips, Philippines (Dabs)

And I think there's another one in Nederlands.

So there are 3 in Europe, 1 in the United States, and 1 in Asia.

I'm the last one. I'm in Asia. I'm in the Philippines. If you read my thread, I have also offered to have locals pick up their chips from my brick and mortar shops. I have offered 11 locations, I think I can bump that up to 15. I will update the thread when I know for sure.

If you look at the threads, I think I was one of the, if not, the first one to make the next Group Buy after Zefir and ragingazn628.

Who am I and why will you lend me 782.1 BTC? Because if you do the math, the BTC is almost a sure thing, people are ordering, and if I can't pay you back due to lack of orders, you know I have chips.

I can also provide any or all of the following:
Scans of:
1. Driver's License
2. Passport
3. Military ID
4. Firearm License
5. Permit to Carry Firearm Outside of Residence
6. Active Duty Training Orders (Military)
7. Appointment Orders (Military)
8. Barangay Clearance
9. Local Police Clearance
10. Mayor's Clearance
11. NBI (National Bureau of Investigation) Clearance
12. Regional Trial Court Clearance
13. Municipal Court Clearance
14. Prosecutor's Clearance
15. Awards and Decorations Certificates and Orders (Military)
16. College Diploma / Transcript of Records
17. Billing Statement of something
18. SEC and DTI Registration, Business Permit for my non-bitcoin business, I make clothes in a factory
19. Bank statements of my business account.
20. Audited financial statements with Income Tax Return for the current and previous year.
21. Promissory Note in the format shown below (next post)

I have a nick on #bitcoin-otc as Dabs

<Dabs> ;;ident
<@gribble> You are identified as user Dabs, with GPG key id 36E4157832AD7565, key fingerprint 2EDAF2045FC1CCFB951364CB36E4157832AD7565, and bitcoin address 19svkxfDSoNXM5tVjAGojavZQ4H5N9z4Q

I have two positive reviews on localbitcoins:
https://localbitcoins.com/accounts/profile/Dabs/

Alternatively you can order the chips yourself, and just have it shipped to my address. That way, I never get the bitcoins.

As a side benefit, your coins get washed too. It goes to me or to Avalon. I send you back your coins from a group of people I have collected the coins from.

If you do the math, based on the group buy alone and resell price, I stand to make 860 BTC. So this should be an easy 17 BTC for you, for no more effort than lending it to me.

If you yourself want the entire 70 BTC gross profit, you could of course, set up your own group buy, handle taxes, shipping, packaging, etc. and basically compete with everyone else setting up group buys.

Remember, this purchase does not include making the mining equipment, this is just for the chips themselves. According to speculation, more than 500,000 (five hundred thousand) chips have been ordered.

I figure, that if everyone who wants to get in on this already knows that I am going to get the chips, then they will order through me. This is also in the interest of bitcoin, the small bitcoin miners, and decentralization as a whole.

As for me, you can do all your google-fu or just PM me. I am a real person. I am not going to run away with your money. No one is going to attempt to steal chips from me. You make 17 BTC in a month without doing any mining or trading.

Thank you.

Dabs

[Dabs]

PROMISSORY NOTE

For Value Received, DABS, a citizen of the Republic of the Philippines, with Principal office at *****, Muntinlupa City, Philippines (THE BORROWER), promises to pay to the order of ****** (THE LENDER) with principal office at ****, Somewhere on the Internet, the sum of BITCOINS: SEVEN HUNDRED EIGHT TWO AND 01/100000000 (782.1 BTC) Payable TWO (2) Months from May 31, 2013 to June 30, 2013.

The Borrower further agrees to pay the Lender Interest on this Note at the rate of Percent (2.3%) per month.

The interest shall be paid on the maturity date with the Principal and computed on the basis of 360 days and the actual number of days. The interest proceeds to be paid will amount to BITCOINS: SEVENTEEN and 09/100000000 (17.9 BTC) only.

The Borrower shall pay the total amount of BITCOINS: EIGHT HUNDRED and 00/100000000 (800.0 BTC) starting May 31, 2013 to June 30, 2013. This PROMISSORY NOTE is renewable at the end of this contract on June 30, 2013 under the same terms and conditions.

Both parties acknowledge that the loan is secured by TEN THOUSAND (10,000) ASIC Chip receivables from Avalon with Order Number *****.

In the event the Borrower fails to pay this Note or any installment thereof, the principal of and the accrued interest on this Note may be declared due and demandable, presentment, demand, protest or notice of any kind, being expressly waived by the Borrower.



BORROWER,
DABS

LENDER,
You

Someone Else
Witness

[Dabs]

*reserved*

[John (John K.)]

I might be interested, but the interest rates and the risk involved scares me. 

[uMMcQxCWELNzkt]

OP at 2.3% I would need to know age as life expectancy should be a factor lol. Joking, I cant do the loan but at least i bumped the thread. 

[Justin00]

Why don't you start up a 'company' in the securities section and have people buy shares ?
I imagine other people will be doing this pretty quick (if not already) so you might want to jump in quick.


on a slightly related topic............
What ever happened to the days where people used their own money to buy shit.. or they went to the bank and got a personal loan.. or something...
Everyone of the forums expects a hand out for doing nothing except stealing other peoples idea's.
 

[TTBit]

on a slightly related topic............
What ever happened to the days where people used their own money to buy shit.. or they went to the bank and got a personal loan.. or something...
Everyone of the forums expects a hand out for doing nothing except stealing other peoples idea's.
 

OT reply: With interest rates forced down to 0% by decree, its hard to find those that are willing to take risks at such a low return. Banks won't loan to individuals with business risk when a 17yo kid gets a college loan that he/she can not default on. Real loans have been bled out of the market, its all mortgages and student loans, which are the only profitable loans banks can make right now.

[Justin00]

ya i dunno its just annoying... like you see someone doing something... think its a good idea.. have no funds.. so make a loan thread..
Obviously everyone thought about doing the same thing... just seems like everybody thinks they are entitled to stuff for free these days.
Wierd, it only happens on these forums. I've been on all sorts of forums over the last ~12 yrs, cars, martial arts blah blah blah. No where have I ever seen people ask for loans... well maybe the odd "zomg i'm broke lend me $10' type of thing here and there..

I'm not saying OP is a scammer or anything and do with him/her all the best with the plan, it is a pretty good idea...

Its entirely my fault though.. I don't have to keep reading the lending section.. I just do because it provides amusement.

[Dabs]

I might be interested, but the interest rates and the risk involved scares me. 

Hi John K., I'm sure we can work something out. I've sent you a PM. Kindly look for it, as I'm sure your inbox has a lot.

@everyone else, hey, did you check out what I was offering? I was willing to send you over my whole life, basically. I was volunteering to dox myself. I'm doing this Group Buy as a private individual, I don't want the complexity of setting up a "company." People just want their chips, or their mining rigs.

[Justin00]

hmm I might actually be interested... if its not to late after my negative comments

How much do you plan on selling the chips for ?
Could I wire you $$ and then you buy the BTC. I have $ but no BTC

If interested you can PM me back the answers if its a secret...

Also just one thing I'm confused about. If its a group buy why don't you get everyone to send you the funds ?

[Dabs]

hmm I might actually be interested... if its not to late after my negative comments

How much do you plan on selling the chips for ?
Could I wire you $$ and then you buy the BTC. I have $ but no BTC

If interested you can PM me back the answers if its a secret...

Also just one thing I'm confused about. If its a group buy why don't you get everyone to send you the funds ?

OP states the following: 782.1 BTC to buy the chips. Selling each at 0.086. Total of 860.0 BTC.

I prefer accepting the BTC, I don't want to buy the BTC with your dollars, we both would lose in the conversion and bank fees when you send it to me, and then I have to fund either an exchange(s) or buy from a direct trader(s).

The transaction is also denominated in BTC, so I prefer fiat out of the picture. If you still want to wire me money, you will have to agree on an additional clause: You include the extra fees, and I pay you back in BTC. I will do my best to get the BTC. I know at least one direct trader which is reputable and I am an existing client. Send me a little bit more, and any excess BTC I get, I will send back to you. I only need 782.1 BTC.

Alternatively, I can set up the transaction, but you fund the wire transfer to the trader, the BTC goes to you. Then, you can lend me the 782.1 BTC. However, that will probably take awhile since it will certainly be a multi-day transaction, at VWAP.

It is a group buy. I want to "jump start" it by already ordering. Then I pay you back when enough people have bought their share of their chips.

It is not too late, I do not view your comments as negative, but rather as constructive criticism. I am, after all, a nobody in these forums. I understand your concerns, and I've tried to be as "real" as possible compared to everyone doing one confidence loan after another at exhorbitant rates. (I don't know any bank or lending entity in real life that charges 20% interest except loan sharks and pawn shops and organized crime groups.)

However, John has expressed interest. Either he gets it, or you two could split the loan, like 391.05 BTC each. Or you get 300 and John gets the rest. I don't know, depends on him. If he wants it all, he was first in line, and I believe he is a trust worthy individual for this, not that I'd need that much since it will be his coins.

The risk is, I have ten thousand chips that no one buys. I calculated that someone is going to buy some or all of them, based on the activity in that forum, and based on the fact that 500,000 chips have been bought by everyone else. And if I already have the chips coming (easily proved by showing the order number and transaction in the block chain), then people are more willing to buy the chips.

[Justin00]

hmmm what happens if no one does end up wanting the chips ? Which isn't likely.. but the question still needs to be asked.

*edit* just did the maths. No offense but not a very good deal.. Someone puts up $100k (721 x $138) and gets back $2500 (18 x $138)
While you make ~$10k and basically have no risk (as you aren't the one down $100k). I or anyone else interested in this would be much better off just buying the chips ourselves and selling.  Again don't mean to offend.. just stating my opinion

Also if for some reason no one wants to buy the 10k chips, you putting them up as collateral would be useless for the person lending. wtf would they do with 10k chips if no one wants them.

Best of luck

[Dabs]

We can work out something. You are comparing BTC to USD, when it's completely out of the picture. For all you know, in 10 weeks time, the value of BTC could go up again (it likely will). It can also go down, of course.

There is considerable risk with me handling the chips. 10,000 chips will be at one location. I have to secure that, don't I? Thus the guns and the goons. I just need someone to supply the gold.

Also, have you seen the demand? This is just the beginning. In our forums alone, 60k chips are going through one person in Switzerland, 10k from another in the US, and possibly 20k or 30k from within Europe. Outside of this, there is an estimated 500k chips from all other sources inclusive of what I just mentioned. One batch got done in less than a week.

Again, you are free to start your own group buy. You take care of all the logistics and the sorting and the final shipping and the taxes and the customs and the dealing with the local government and all that.

You try borrowing $100k in a US bank, and let me know what rate they will give you. Or you try investing $100k in a US bank, like a Time Deposit or similar, and let me know how much interest they will offer. It is probably measure Per Annum. Or 360 days.

If you are interested, and you have the coins (or the $), I'm sure we can work out a higher percentage if that's what you want.

Worst case, I resell the chips at cost and give you back all your bitcoins. Unlikely though.

[Dabs]

I also know at least two friends (who know me personally) that are in the Customs Brokerage business. They facilitate getting stuff into or out of the country. I should have no problems there though, even on my own. I just have to show up in my uniform when I claim the chips, if in case it does not get delivered directly to me. Most government officials don't ask questions when even a young officer shows up.

Also, if you do lend me the bitcoins, I'm willing to let you do the collecting. That way, you have all the coins the buyers are paying. Suddenly, you are in a position to not pay me my share when you've collected for all 10,000 chips.

I will be using the block chain as proof of accounting. It's already there.

[augustocroppo]

I can also provide any or all of the following:
Scans of:
1. Driver's License
2. Passport
3. Military ID
4. Firearm License
5. Permit to Carry Firearm Outside of Residence
6. Active Duty Training Orders (Military)
7. Appointment Orders (Military)
8. Barangay Clearance
9. Local Police Clearance
10. Mayor's Clearance
11. NBI (National Bureau of Investigation) Clearance
12. Regional Trial Court Clearance
13. Municipal Court Clearance
14. Prosecutor's Clearance
15. Awards and Decorations Certificates and Orders (Military)
16. College Diploma / Transcript of Records
17. Billing Statement of something
18. SEC and DTI Registration, Business Permit for my non-bitcoin business, I make clothes in a factory
19. Bank statements of my business account.
20. Audited financial statements with Income Tax Return for the current and previous year.
21. Promissory Note in the format shown below (next post)

Hello Dabs,

That is an extensive list of documents to verify. I am finishing my qualifications to examine documents. I would be happy to assist you and the lender to close this deal. I can help to compose the agreement and endorse the conditions after I verified all the necessary requirements. If both parties want to keep their private details undisclosed to each other, I can hold personal and confidential data in escrow in accordance with the agreement conditions.

Drop me a message if you need any help.

[Justin00]

I've read your PM and appreciate the detailed info.. To many variables for me unfortunately.... I'll have to give it a miss.  The main one is gambling with that much BTC/USD.

I'll be honest originally when I was interested I thought you could sell the chips for heaps more than 0.08, I thought you were just being nice and selling them cheap. I didn't relies heaps of other people were selling them (for around the same price I'm guessing?).

You do sound like you have it thought out pretty well and have an extensive list of options which ensure you couldn't just run off. I'm sure who ever takes you up on this should make some easy money.  

Just one last question... I know you don't seem to want to talk about $/BTC.. but if 1 BTC = $140 today.. and you sell for 0.08 which is $11 or so..
Lets just say the price of BTC doubles.. you then sell the chips for 0.04.. how would you be able to pay back the 800BTC ?
You could pay back the same amount of USD the person lent you today, but you wouldn't be able to pay back to the BTC value.
Obviously if it drops in price thats no problem.. but I imagine people don't get into trouble when the price drops

 

[John (John K.)]

Replied via PM, and I'm going to decline respectfully.

I have the BTC on hand and not planning to convert to fiat soon (that kicks the BTC/USD issue Justin said), but a major problem is not covered adequately: What if there's no buyers for the chips? Group buys are popping up furiously, and the potential buyers are going to be limited. With the risks and headache involved, I'm better off setting up a website and start selling chips at high markups, thus eliminating multiple risks.

The 3% is totally undoable without collateral or any secured means of obtaining my principal back. I don't want to be collecting from someone with a M1911 24/7. 

Best of luck with your group buy endeavors - by the way why do you want to order the chips before any orders are in? 

[Dabs]

Just one last question... I know you don't seem to want to talk about $/BTC.. but if 1 BTC = $140 today.. and you sell for 0.08 which is $11 or so..
Lets just say the price of BTC doubles.. you then sell the chips for 0.04.. how would you be able to pay back the 800BTC ?
You could pay back the same amount of USD the person lent you today, but you wouldn't be able to pay back to the BTC value.
Obviously if it drops in price thats no problem.. but I imagine people don't get into trouble when the price drops

I sell the chips for 0.086 still. I bought the chips in BTC. I sell it in BTC. That's the beauty of this thing from Avalon, they only accept BTC as payment. In fact, they have a formula for calculating the price of their working units based on difficulty, hashing power, and predicted ROI. They want you, to make back you investment, in 1 month of using their stand-alone unit, you know, the desktop sized thing that does 60 GH/s.

So you can't compare it to dollars, unlike BFL that accepts payment in dollars. (Avalon did accept dollars as payment for their first batch, but beginning with batch 2 and the chips, they only accept bitcoins.)

If the price of BTC doubles, the chip suddenly is more expensive, relative to the dollar. But it is the same value in bitcoins.
If the price of BTC goes down, the chip can be bought more cheaply, by buying BTC using your dollars.

Again, I'm not taking a loan in any fiat amount. I'm taking a loan in bitcoins. Because what I am buying is only priced in bitcoins. The manufacturer does not give a fiat price at all. (Maybe that could be a problem for them.)

I could attempt to sell a working miner for heaps more, but no one is going to believe that when there are several open source projects going on now. A lot of people have learned their lesson too, buying pre-order units 10 months ago, and today have nothing still.

I don't know about the chips, but it seems everyone is expecting the chips to arrive.

If I wanted to borrow in fiat, I'd go to a fiat based bank. I did. I'm getting a couple million peso business loan, at 1% interest rate per month, payable in 1 year. Revolving. Line of credit. But my business makes clothes that I sell for pesos. I pay my employees in pesos. I'm keeping fiat based business separate from this bitcoin based venture.

Maybe later on I can convince the board of the fiat based business to accept bitcoins as payment, but that's not going to happen any time soon.

All loans, even in BTC, are gambles. You are betting that the other guy will be able to pay you back. I've tried to make my case, otherwise if I could afford it I'd do the jump starting myself.

At least I tried. I know some people are holding much more than 782.1 BTC. Some are looking to find a way to make more coins with what they have. Some just don't care and will simply hold. And there are some who will gamble it on a game of chance.

I've shown that this gamble is much better than the popular gamble where you can bet 500 BTC and win 600 back within 30 seconds. But you can also lose there.

You can lose here as well, but at least you know who you can run after (me), and he has something that could be worth it to someone else (chips.)

Replied via PM, and I'm going to decline respectfully.

I have the BTC on hand and not planning to convert to fiat soon (that kicks the BTC/USD issue Justin said), but a major problem is not covered adequately: What if there's no buyers for the chips? Group buys are popping up furiously, and the potential buyers are going to be limited. With the risks and headache involved, I'm better off setting up a website and start selling chips at high markups, thus eliminating multiple risks.

The 3% is totally undoable without collateral or any secured means of obtaining my principal back. I don't want to be collecting from someone with a M1911 24/7.  

Best of luck with your group buy endeavors - by the way why do you want to order the chips before any orders are in?  

I want to order the chips, so
1. The lead time for the delivery starts now, not when I've collected the amount. Saves time. Chips get here before others. Everyone is racing to make working miners.
2. The buyers are more likely to order from me (even those outside of our geographical area) knowing I already have the chips. (Note Zefir, who bought outright.)

I think someone did start a website (also in the Custom Hardware forum) but everyone is calling him a scammer, complaining about overpriced chips. Maybe he priced it too high, so he's not getting any. We don't know that for sure because it's a website and not a group buy where every order is public record.

I'm confident there will be enough buyers even if the Group Buys are separated by countries or areas. We will see later on.

The weapon wasn't meant to scare you. It was meant to assure you (and the buyers) that I can and will protect their investment. (self-defense and all that, I like reading about the United States Constitution and their drama about their 2nd amendment.)

Thank you Justin and John for seriously looking at my proposal. At least, it tells me that I'm doing something in these forums right. I'm hoping someone else is going to see this. If not, well, ... I think I'll find out after May 1 (or after the holidays, since that date is a holiday in many parts of the world.)

[John (John K.)]

I know, I was just joking about the M1911. 

Yes, I agree to your points as having a chip order in will significantly increase potential buy-ins. As for the website issue, I guess I can pull that off successfully as I do have enough rep for that - indeed I've been getting queries for me to organize a group buy too. (PS: I can't do that as I don't have extra time, sorry!)

Anyway I see that you have the potential to succeed here as you're willing to essentially dox yourself, and seem to have thought out your plans completely. Best of luck! 

[Dabs]

Since you're in Malaysia, want to start with an order? Only 10 chips minimum. The dude in Thailand or Indonesia can then do some magic on it and make it a working miner. Your own personal order might be what I need as opposed to an outright loan.