Let the Machines do the Work (The end of Slavery)

[myrkul]

And your argument of scarcity has been argued over and over, but the simple fact that coins have a limit makes that argument void. Sure they could drop in value, but as long as there are real world uses for them they are still better than the American dollar which is inflated every day by credit and printed money.

As opposed to your dime-a-dozen NewCoins, which multiply every time difficulty gets too high for the old one.

(and no, those new coins will be ditch-weed, not hash.)

[FinShaggy]

And your argument of scarcity has been argued over and over, but the simple fact that coins have a limit makes that argument void. Sure they could drop in value, but as long as there are real world uses for them they are still better than the American dollar which is inflated every day by credit and printed money.

As opposed to your dime-a-dozen NewCoins, which multiply every time difficulty gets too high for the old one.

(and no, those new coins will be ditch-weed, not hash.)

Printing American dollars and making a new currency are 2 completely different things.
Hash is the ditch weed of Europe (available, cheap and plentiful), thanks for trying though.

[Mike Christ]

And your argument of scarcity has been argued over and over, but the simple fact that coins have a limit makes that argument void. Sure they could drop in value, but as long as there are real world uses for them they are still better than the American dollar which is inflated every day by credit and printed money.

The case I'm making is this; if each Bitcoin were worth 1 million dollars, and every person had one Bitcoin, 1 million dollars looks like nothing.  300 million millionaires just means people will be trading hundreds of thousands for a loaf of bread.  People do not magically get rich together; something happens in between that allows people to thrive alongside each other.  They thrive because they work and trade their work for the things they need; the issue comes when a person's work is watered down to make the employer richer.

They can create a new currency, but it's still the same issue; at some point in time, people stop accepting it.  I can create Mikecoins, and spend all day mining them with a few buddies, but getting from that stage to where Bitcoin is now would be next to impossible; I'm not adding anything new to Mikecoins.  It's just a BTC clone with a name change and a reset.  There's no appeal for having 10,000 Mikecoins, outside of hoping and praying that it will someday be worth a dollar a pop.  Considering, at this point, there will be millions of other coins on the market, doing nothing but being Bitcoin, it is next to impossible; there will be competition among crypto-currencies, to improve these coins, so people will flock to them, and make the inventors money by transferring the wealth of others, and early adopters, and thus, capitalism.

So what about Mikecoins?  The 1,000,000th bitcoin clone to be created, because the popular Shagcoin became too difficult to mine at a profit?  Well, it goes nowhere, in an over-saturated altcoin market, and is worth next to nothing.  It does not pay for the computers it burned to mine them, and does not pay for me to live.  It's still not worth the effort.  Wealth is not created from thin air, is the point I'm making.

[myrkul]

And your argument of scarcity has been argued over and over, but the simple fact that coins have a limit makes that argument void. Sure they could drop in value, but as long as there are real world uses for them they are still better than the American dollar which is inflated every day by credit and printed money.

As opposed to your dime-a-dozen NewCoins, which multiply every time difficulty gets too high for the old one.

(and no, those new coins will be ditch-weed, not hash.)

Printing American dollars and making a new currency are 2 completely different things.

Except when you make a new coin every time the difficulty rises above a certain threshold. Then it's essentially the same thing. Just print more money.

Hash is the ditch weed of Europe (available, cheap and plentiful), thanks for trying though.

You misunderstand. Your coins would be like the actual ditchweed in Europe. Unwanted, unloved, and useful only for rope.

[FinShaggy]

And your argument of scarcity has been argued over and over, but the simple fact that coins have a limit makes that argument void. Sure they could drop in value, but as long as there are real world uses for them they are still better than the American dollar which is inflated every day by credit and printed money.

The case I'm making is this; if each Bitcoin were worth 1 million dollars, and every person had one Bitcoin, 1 million dollars looks like nothing.  300 million millionaires just means people will be trading hundreds of thousands for a loaf of bread.  People do not magically get rich together; something happens in between that allows people to thrive alongside each other.  They thrive because they work and trade their work for the things they need; the issue comes when a person's work is watered down to make the employer richer.

They can create a new currency, but it's still the same issue; at some point in time, people stop accepting it.  I can create Mikecoins, and spend all day mining them with a few buddies, but getting from that stage to where Bitcoin is now would be next to impossible; I'm not adding anything new to Mikecoins.  It's just a BTC clone with a name change and a reset.  There's no appeal for having 10,000 Mikecoins, outside of hoping and praying that it will someday be worth a dollar a pop.  Considering, at this point, there will be millions of other coins on the market, doing nothing but being Bitcoin, it is next to impossible; there will be competition among crypto-currencies, to improve these coins, so people will flock to them, and make the inventors money by transferring the wealth of others, and early adopters, and thus, capitalism.

So what about Mikecoins?  The 1,000,000th bitcoin clone to be created, because the popular Shagcoin became too difficult to mine at a profit?  Well, it goes nowhere, in an over-saturated altcoin market, and is worth next to nothing.  It does not pay for the computers it burned to mine them, and does not pay for me to live.  It's still not worth the effort.  Wealth is not created from thin air, is the point I'm making.

That would not happen.
First off, if Bitcoin is worth a million dollars, the dollar already did something wrong.

Second, Bitcoin does not have the ability to "replace" the current economy. It is simply an alternative, all the currencies will need to work together to wipe out paper money, and get the world back to gold, and the new credit/token/coin currencies.

Third, Sure Bitcoin could hurt the economy, as long as people like me don't suggest alternatives. My suggestion is, when you have an excess in another coin or dollars, or euros... But Coins for more than they are worth, simply to help the economy thrive. I believe if rich people did the same thing (bought euros with their American dollars, then bought American dollars for 1.25% their value) the economy would correct itself. But people are just too greedy, my hope is that we can inform enough miners to make that not the case with crypto currency.

True, you could make mike coins and one day people could stop using them. BUT, if you invent something, or create a business and make Mikecoins the main currency used to buy the item, or within the business (like dave and busters) you can guive your coins a real world value and they will never be worthless.

And I know wealth is not made from thin air, and that is not what I am suggesting. I suggest SHARING wealth once it is got, and inventing new things and starting new organizations.

[FinShaggy]

You misunderstand. Your coins would be like the actual ditchweed in Europe. Unwanted, unloved, and useful only for rope.

Not if you make it necessary for your invention or business. Which you can create once you have been aided by social welfare.

[myrkul]

You misunderstand. Your coins would be like the actual ditchweed in Europe. Unwanted, unloved, and useful only for rope.

Not if you make it necessary for your invention or business. Which you can create once you have been aided by social welfare.

Social welfare paid for by mining those new coins! I gotta admit, your logic is perfect (-ly circular).

[myrkul]

Please understand, I'm not just trying to kill your buzz here. I'm trying to save you a lot of wasted time and money. If you want to try and make a solar miner, go for it. But please, don't pretend that it's the answer to all the world's problems. You can't just magic up prosperity. You have to work for it.

[Mike Christ]

That would not happen.
First off, if Bitcoin is worth a million dollars, the dollar already did something wrong.

Second, Bitcoin does not have the ability to "replace" the current economy. It is simply an alternative, all the currencies will need to work together to wipe out paper money, and get the world back to gold, and the new credit/token/coin currencies.

Third, Sure Bitcoin could hurt the economy, as long as people like me don't suggest alternatives. My suggestion is, when you have an excess in another coin or dollars, or euros... But Coins for more than they are worth, simply to help the economy thrive. I believe if rich people did the same thing (bought euros with their American dollars, then bought American dollars for 1.25% their value) the economy would correct itself. But people are just too greedy, my hope is that we can inform enough miners to make that not the case with crypto currency.

True, you could make mike coins and one day people could stop using them. BUT, if you invent something, or create a business and make Mikecoins the main currency used to buy the item, or within the business (like dave and busters) you can guive your coins a real world value and they will never be worthless.

And I know wealth is not made from thin air, and that is not what I am suggesting. I suggest SHARING wealth once it is got, and inventing new things and starting new organizations.

I'm saying, people would never start using them; nobody would bother.  Nobody wants to use a million different coins to buy a million different things.  For example, if Google invented Googlecoins, and Amazon invented Amazoncoins (not the stuff they already got, mind you,) people would cry, "But we already have Bitcoin!  I don't want to use Googlecoins!"  It would be like McDonalds only accepting Happycoins, or WalMart only accepted Walcoins; it's bad for business, and makes it annoying for the consumer to keep track of it.  Also, by assigning your Googlecoins a value of 10 Bitcoins a pop, you're artificially setting the price; this doesn't happen in the real world.  People have to figure out what a currency is worth by themselves by agreeing on it.  It would be like saying my Laptop isn't really worth $200, it's actually worth $2000, except no one would purchase at $200 laptop at $2000, unless they were getting shafted.

In relation to your last statement: If wealth is not created from thin air, you cannot share what wealth you didn't create from thin air.  That's essentially what this is boiling down to; it's an attempt to generate wealth by doing nothing.  In the end, it's going to do little more than secure the various crypto-coin networks, without making the person money.  If I sold you a mining rig for 10k Shagcoins, and you used it to produce 100k Mikecoins, all of which are worth 10k Shagcoins (if you're lucky), then we're going nowhere.  As I said before, in a system like this, it's better to either lose the concept of crypto-currency all together, or stick with a system in which people work; there is no real in-between here.  If people are already living off machine labor, and all their necessities are being met, then they have no real reason to trade to live.  They might trade for entertainment and such, but, I predict that even this will disappear.  Really, there's nothing left to fight for, once everyone's perfectly healthy and happy; you just do what you wanna do, like go biking, or write a book.  The question is then irrelevant to this thread; how to make it all happen to ensure people are actually free.

As myrkul said, I'm not trying to rain on your idea, but, let's get to the root of the matter.  Have you seen Zeitgeist?

[FinShaggy]

Social welfare paid for by mining those new coins! I gotta admit, your logic is perfect (-ly circular).

NO, your logic is perfectly illogical.

Mining wouldn't be the only thing paying for the social welfare, I have explained this over and over.
The DMV still makes money
Toll roads still make money
Camping and entering parks
Hunting Permits
They can create online wallets and charge us transfer fees
Or do the same thing by creating a coin exchange website
Or an ebay type website
Or a silk road type website

The government simply has to earn its own money (in this scenario), mining is not the only thing it should do.

[FinShaggy]

I'm saying, people would never start using them; nobody would bother.

In relation to your last statement: If wealth is not created from thin air, you cannot share what wealth you didn't create from thin air.  

 Have you seen Zeitgeist?

Yes they would, people already use alternative coins. And if they have a use, people would use new ones. Like the gold in World of Warcraft, I bet it could be considered an online currency, because I bet there are people trading REAL world stuff (I know they at least trade money for gold).

If someone invented a game that used their new currency, then bam, the currency is at least as valuable as their game. Then make a forum, and make people pay coins as membership fees, bam, two real world applications for your coin. Then start selling candy bars for coins, bam, now people are wondering where to get coins so they can get a candy bar.

I am not talking about making it from thin air, is your point that you do not think I have the ability to build capitol? Because I do, I am not "proposing" plans, I am presenting them.

No I have not seen zeitgeist, but everyone tries to make me watch that video and they think it's awesome. I have seen the first 20 minutes though and I learned all that stuff when I was like 13.

[myrkul]

The government simply has to earn its own money (in this scenario), mining is not the only thing it should do.

And you think that a government that must earn it's own money is going to be spending it on social welfare?

[FinShaggy]

And you think that a government that must earn it's own money is going to be spending it on social welfare?

If that's t's only purpose in existing, then yes.

1. We can build our own towns, roads and water grids, which has been proven by the masonic societies. Compare America to Mexico and you will see what I mean.

2. We can police ourselves, and I see no reason why police should not already be volunteers.

3. The only reserves they need is for war, and other foreign dealings. There should be no "foreign policy" except for "free trade".

[FinShaggy]

Each county, and town ship should be its own corporation, free of ties from the federal government. But they should still come together to form the "State". And the state should be a Robosocialist Republic.

[myrkul]

And you think that a government that must earn it's own money is going to be spending it on social welfare?

If that's it's only purpose in existing, then yes.

Then how is it going to earn it's money?

[FinShaggy]

And you think that a government that must earn it's own money is going to be spending it on social welfare?

If that's it's only purpose in existing, then yes.

Then how is it going to earn it's money?

Please Read

NO, your logic is perfectly illogical.

Mining wouldn't be the only thing paying for the social welfare, I have explained this over and over.
The DMV still makes money
Toll roads still make money
Camping and entering parks
Hunting Permits
They can create online wallets and charge us transfer fees
Or do the same thing by creating a coin exchange website
Or an ebay type website
Or a silk road type website

The government simply has to earn its own money (in this scenario), mining is not the only thing it should do.

[myrkul]

And you think that a government that must earn it's own money is going to be spending it on social welfare?

If that's it's only purpose in existing, then yes.

Then how is it going to earn it's money?

Please Read

NO, your logic is perfectly illogical.

Mining wouldn't be the only thing paying for the social welfare, I have explained this over and over.
The DMV still makes money
Toll roads still make money
Camping and entering parks
Hunting Permits
They can create online wallets and charge us transfer fees
Or do the same thing by creating a coin exchange website
Or an ebay type website
Or a silk road type website

The government simply has to earn its own money (in this scenario), mining is not the only thing it should do.

Then wouldn't it be wiser to use the money those services generate to maintain those services, like any other company that provides those services? Otherwise they will be out-competed, and make no money.

[Mike Christ]

Yes they would, people already use alternative coins. And if they have a use, people would use new ones. Like the gold in World of Warcraft, I bet it could be considered an online currency, because I bet there are people trading REAL world stuff (I know they at least trade money for gold).

If someone invented a game that used their new currency, then bam, the currency is at least as valuable as their game. Then make a forum, and make people pay coins as membership fees, bam, two real world applications for your coin. Then start selling candy bars for coins, bam, now people are wondering where to get coins so they can get a candy bar.

I am not talking about making it from thin air, is your point that you do not think I have the ability to build capitol? Because I do, I am not "proposing" plans, I am presenting them.

No I have not seen zeitgeist, but everyone tries to make me watch that video and they think it's awesome. I have seen the first 20 minutes though and I learned all that stuff when I was like 13.

What you're describing is similar to the Venus Project showcased in Zeitgeist (robosocialism); it would be in your best interest to watch all 3 movies, so you have a better idea of what an RBE would work like.

You're missing the point tho; lets say we had A-Coin.  And B-Coin.  And C-Coin.  And D-Coin.  So now you have 4 different wallets for 4 different coins.

Multiply that by a million and we have a problem.  Not only is it hard to keep track of, but each individual coin would be nearly worthless.  It's like government printing out more money.  Bitcoin is scarce because it has a limit; however, 1 million incarnations of Bitcoin, and counting, are not scarce.  Because of this, people will stick to a very small number of coins, and will likely mine those coins, except they can't, because everyone is, so we're back at the problem described earlier.  I've got a million Mikecoins and I'd be lucky to get my mum to take them to buy a sandwich off her.  Now she's got a million Mikecoins that nobody wants; imagine this, except with all the people in the world, and we're having a problem keeping everyone on the same page.  People will naturally flock to the same few coins, and if not for better coins, coins that have been around longer, and are more widely adopted, just because they can use them for stuff.

I can't buy a thing with my PPcoins btw.  I got quite a few of them.  I can, however, trade them for one or two bitcoins.  That's PPCoin, and it's been around for a couple years.  Imagine creating a new one every other week.  They'd never take off.  We simply have no need for that many altcoins.  Altcoins are great, but a million of them is just way too much.  You won't find anyone to take fj8e92qjr839qCoin, the 432,398th coin to be created.  As I said, again, it's an attempt to create wealth out of nothing.

Also, WoW gold is worth next to nothing.  It has value because it's a pain in the ass to collect and people are lazy (they're also suckers, but, that's nothing new.)  It is, however, unlimited in supply, so it's a lot like fiat, except much worse.  Nobody is buying candy bars with WoW gold because of this, nor are they paying their subscriptions with WoW gold because the devs are smarter than to accept their own virtual currency that's unlimited in supply.  Finally, because WoW gold is earned in-game, it's nearly impossible to get enough people using it, and it's insecure, for your account can be stolen, shut-down, and any mod can create themselves WoW gold on the spot.  Try paying for your grocery bill with it; never happen.  That's essentially what will happen with enough offshoots of Bitcoin; the altcoins become worthless.

But as I said before, when there's no work, there's no economy.  So the point is moot.

[FinShaggy]

Then wouldn't it be wiser to use the money those services generate to maintain those services, like any other company that provides those services? Otherwise they will be out-competed, and make no money.

1. Maintaining most of those things costs less than they make, I just listed the parts of government that are actually lucrative.

2. Mining and providing electricity are two things the government could do that would be even more lucrative and liked.

3. I believe the government could then even afford NEW ventures, such as pharmaceutical.

And the Texas gov is already big on oil.

[FinShaggy]

What you're describing is similar to the Venus Project showcased in Zeitgeist (robosocialism); it would be in your best interest to watch all 3 movies, so you have a better idea of what an RBE would work like.

You're missing the point tho; lets say we had A-Coin.  And B-Coin.  And C-Coin.  And D-Coin.  So now you have 4 different wallets for 4 different coins.

Multiply that by a million and we have a problem.  Not only is it hard to keep track of, but each individual coin would be nearly worthless.  It's like government printing out more money.  Bitcoin is scarce because it has a limit; however, 1 million incarnations of Bitcoin, and counting, are not scarce.  Because of this, people will stick to a very small number of coins, and will likely mine those coins, except they can't, because everyone is, so we're back at the problem described earlier.  I've got a million Mikecoins and I'd be lucky to get my mum to take them to buy a sandwich off her.  Now she's got a million Mikecoins that nobody wants; imagine this, except with all the people in the world, and we're having a problem keeping everyone on the same page.  People will naturally flock to the same few coins, and if not for better coins, coins that have been around longer, and are more widely adopted, just because they can use them for stuff.

I can't buy a thing with my PPcoins btw.  I got quite a few of them.  I can, however, trade them for one or two bitcoins.  That's PPCoin, and it's been around for a couple years.  Imagine creating a new one every other week.  They'd never take off.  We simply have no need for that many altcoins.  Altcoins are great, but a million of them is just way too much.  You won't find anyone to take fj8e92qjr839qCoin, the 432,398th coin to be created.  As I said, again, it's an attempt to create wealth out of nothing.

Also, WoW gold is worth next to nothing.  It has value because it's a pain in the ass to collect and people are lazy (they're also suckers, but, that's nothing new.)  It is, however, unlimited in supply, so it's a lot like fiat, except much worse.  Nobody is buying candy bars with WoW gold because of this, nor are they paying their subscriptions with WoW gold because the devs are smarter than to accept their own virtual currency that's unlimited in supply.  Finally, because WoW gold is earned in-game, it's nearly impossible to get enough people using it, and it's insecure, for your account can be stolen, shut-down, and any mod can create themselves WoW gold on the spot.  Try paying for your grocery bill with it; never happen.  That's essentially what will happen with enough offshoots of Bitcoin; the altcoins become worthless.

But as I said before, when there's no work, there's no economy.  So the point is moot.

Not everyone would use all the coins. Coins would be specific to areas, then on the internet they could be traded more freely.

And it's not my fault you can't buy things for PP coins, if you want pp coins to have a real world value, start posting things on Craigslist, facebook and here in exchange for PP coins, then your statement is no longer true. And you're wrong, they could take off. If you and your friends started using a PP coin economy for fantasy football bets or even to measure debts to each other, they would have a use in your group of 2-3-4-5-10-15 etc and eventually others would use it too. Someone just has to stimulate that economy to start with.

And I understand that wow gold is worthless because it is infinite, but people still DO pay for it. My whole point (that you missed) in that metaphor is that it is not hard to get people to want an online currency, especially if you have a little game designing ability.

And as I said before, there will always be work: Mechanics, inventors, and specialized professionals.