Someone should clone PPC and call it Ecocoin

[matt608]

PPC is the most innovative and exciting alt coin IMO.  It seems inevitable that a proof-of-stake will become a major player in the future cryptocoin sphere.  However, PPC has a marketing problem.  It's supposed to stand for 'peer to peer coin', but all the coins are peer to peer, plus as everyone always says, 'pee pee' sound silly.  PPC's critical advantage is being more environmentally friendly by saving electricity used in mining.  If it was called Ecocoin, and had a stylish and user friendly homepage as opposed to the quaint, cute game-like homepage of PPC, it would be welcomed and hugely take off.

Can you imagine it?  Ecocoins, the true currency of the revolution.  It would gain support of all the hippies, eco-warriors.  Stuff that has 'eco' in the name is very fashionable, and can rally fanatical support from nature lovers, like myself.

If I was remotely technical I'd do this myself but I haven't the slightest clue how release my own coin, even it it is a clone.

I also actually want PPC or a clone of it to be successful because of the environmentally friendly factor.  Someone give me a coin I can believe in!

Any thoughts on this idea? 

[markm]

You'd need to hack out the centrally controlled checkpoints thing, or look into whether the thing that does that is a proprietary node rather than a switch or option already built into the free open source node code...

-MarkM-

[00400]

As i understand PPC uses PoW and PoS, and because of that it can be called only half-eco-coin.

PPC could be intresting but it's difficult to understand, lacks of marketting and community support. I think it's just too late for this coin. There are more improved coins being build. Maybe PPC will make understanding that public relations are important.

[JessicaMILFson]

I made the same comments today here in the main thread

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=101820.msg1978722#msg1978722

[killerstorm]

As i understand PPC uses PoW and PoS, and because of that it can be called only half-eco-coin.

PPC could be intresting but it's difficult to understand, lacks of marketting and community support. I think it's just too late for this coin. There are more improved coins being build. Maybe PPC will make understanding that public relations are important.

The problem with PPC isn't PR... The problem is that there is NO evidence that it works as advertised, and there is a lot of evidence that it is completely broken.

If anything, it shows how PR can give you a market cap of $7.5+M when you have a really crappy product.

[JessicaMILFson]

Could you post me links to the evidence if you don't mind? I would like to read this to get a more unbiased opinion. Thanks

[killerstorm]

Could you post me links to the evidence if you don't mind? I would like to read this to get a more unbiased opinion. Thanks

Version 0.2 was demonstrated to be completely broken:

A perpetual tournament is proposed, in which stake holders try to compete against each other for generating the longest consecutive fork. This will provide an empirical means to investigate the security of the ppcoin network and show strengths and weaknesses of the current scheme.

I've shown before that I can generate large consecutive chains of blocks by just bring the exchange cold wallet online. The first time I did this I got 84 consecutive blocks. The second time over 100. Yesterday I brought another wallet online and left it running. When I closed it overnight it had 400 blocks in 'immature' status. That is probably why POS difficulty is currently 30+. The exchange doesn't have that many coins. There are people out there with more coins than the exchange I'm sure.

(Proof-of-stake's only purpose is to make generating many blocks in a row hard so that double-spending is hard. If it is easy to generate many such blocks then PoS doesn't work as advertised, it is a sham.)

I do not have such data about version 0.3 (I completely lost interest), but Jutarul claims that it has same flaws as previous version: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=101954.msg1952272#msg1952272

And I have all reasons to trust him, since he previously demonstrated good analysis of ppcoin security, Sunny King even mentioned him in version 0.3 announcement:

The protocol upgrade in 0.3.0 includes a new algorithm to derive proof-of-stake hash modifier, the entity that scrambles computation for stake owners, ... Honorary mention also goes to Jutarul, who independently discovered and verified an issue with using difficulty as modifier and published on bitcointalk in December last year, while successfully executed a demo attack on the block chain.

Then you have a hilarious statement from Sunny King that he has no idea how secure PPCoin is:

You are right I don't have a math analysis of how much coins are needed to attempt control of block chain.

But the problem is that Sunny doesn't want to help people to research this independently, he offers no documentation and says people should just read source code.

So, the summary is that PPCoin is a thinly veiled sham. Situation might change only if Sunny will be willing to help researchers to analyze it.

[virtualmaster]

PPC is the most innovative and exciting alt coin IMO.  It seems inevitable that a proof-of-stake will become a major player in the future cryptocoin sphere.  However, PPC has a marketing problem.  It's supposed to stand for 'peer to peer coin', but all the coins are peer to peer, plus as everyone always says, 'pee pee' sound silly.  PPC's critical advantage is being more environmentally friendly by saving electricity used in mining.  If it was called Ecocoin, and had a stylish and user friendly homepage as opposed to the quaint, cute game-like homepage of PPC, it would be welcomed and hugely take off.

Can you imagine it?  Ecocoins, the true currency of the revolution.  It would gain support of all the hippies, eco-warriors.  Stuff that has 'eco' in the name is very fashionable, and can rally fanatical support from nature lovers, like myself.

If I was remotely technical I'd do this myself but I haven't the slightest clue how release my own coin, even it it is a clone.

I also actually want PPC or a clone of it to be successful because of the environmentally friendly factor.  Someone give me a coin I can believe in!

Any thoughts on this idea? 

Energy efficiency is good but only if it works.
It is the same as I would compare a good engine which is consuming energy and a not working engine.
The not working engine is saving energy but doesn't work. But I could sell it saying that will be the most energy saving engine when it will work. Would you buy it ?
Bitcoin, namecoin and litecoin are working as decentralized currency but ppcoin still doesn't work.

[matt608]

If PPC is broken, I can't find that out as I can't read code, I have to be told it's broken by people I can trust.

How much time would it take a well qualified full time programmer to fix it?  Is it easier to launch another version called EcoCoin?  If a programmer(s) were hired and paid to do that, how much would it cost?

People are looking to invest in the best coin.  It makes no sense to continue to this pointless hashing race for years and years.  Whoever launches an attractively branded coin with a proof-of-stake (or similar) system where coins are generated by users earning interest instead of mining, will make a fortune, as well as save lots of electricity.  

We could crowd fund a project like this, or offer shares on https://btct.co/.  Or some programmers could just do it (and let me know about it lol, i'd be willing to donate some BTC to get it going, and be the 'PR guy').  

[killerstorm]

How much time would it take a well qualified full time programmer to fix it?

It isn't broken in sense that there is a bug in it, it is broken in sense that the idea behind it is (likely) faulty.

So one either needs to use a different idea. Or to prove that PPCoin can actually be made secure with some modifications. (We don't know whether it is possible at all.)

 Is it easier to launch another version called EcoCoin?

Probably.

 If a programmer(s) were hired and paid to do that, how much would it cost?

It' hard to say. Programmers who are capable of such things are likely busy with other projects and won't be eager to switch.

Otherwise, I think a proof-of-concept shouldn't take more than a month or two of work of a capable programmer. Polishing and securing might take some extra time.

(Pure proof-of-stake is likely significantly different from proof-of-work, so a lot of work is needed. Sunny King and his friend cheated a bit by making PoS protocol very similar to PoW protocol, but you see the result...)

We could crowd fund a project like this, or offer shares on https://btct.co/.  Or some programmers could just do it (and let me know about it lol, i'd be willing to donate some BTC to get it going, and be the 'PR guy').  

A lot of capable programmers have to earn their money on their corporate jobs and don't have much free time, so crowdfunding could help.

But there are many unknowns... Say, a programmer from California would require much more money than a programmer from Russia. Also, it makes no sense to quite your job for a month-worth gig.

[LaggedOnUser]

Take a look at Ripple currency (https://ripple.com/bitcoiners/).  It has a different model for transactions than Bitcoin and looks more efficient and secure.  Ripple uses consensus rather than proof-of-work or proof-of-stake.  It is faster (confirmation occurs in seconds) and more secure (not subject to 51% attack).  Since it doesn't rely on proof-of-work, it doesn't have to burn up scads of computer time to laboriously prove its security.  See more advantages here: https://ripple.com/wiki/Introduction_to_Ripple_for_Bitcoiners

[Luckybit]

PPC and Proof of Stake work well in theory when combined with Proof of Work in a hybrid model. Whether or not it works in practice depends on whether or not Sunny King can effectively code it. I think he can, but PPC is at least a year or two away from being truly usable.


There are other projects in the development phase but those projects will go through a similar process and are even more years away. Bitcoin is an obvious success, Litecoin is a clone of Bitcoin with faster transactions and less valuable, Namecoin is entirely different but will be a success. A Proof of Stake hybrid coin is needed and if not PPC what else is there?

[killerstorm]

PPC and Proof of Stake work well in theory when combined with Proof of Work in a hybrid model.

PoS+PoW is not energy-efficient. It is just (presumably) more secure than pure PoW.

There are other projects in the development phase but those projects will go through a similar process and are even more years away.

Chances are those projects will start with proper planning...

[romerun]

It was cloned at least once, called NovaCoin something.

--

If eager programmers have a hard time deriving the implementation, so do eager attackers, thus attacking will not eager to happen.

Or it could be that Sunny knows its weaknesses, but believes they are not practical when the network is mature enough. As long as no ones discovers them at the early stage, it's good enough.

[virtualmaster]

A Proof of Stake hybrid coin is needed and if not PPC what else is there?

With PPC we see how much people are interested in energy efficiency and in the environment so that they support even a(still) not working model. But may be they will solve it one day and that will be great. But may be it cannot be solved then people invested their hope without return.
PPC actually is pure Proof of Work and they say they intend to switch to Proof of Stack but if they switch to it without solving the decentralized checkpoint problem it will be a centralized currency.
A hybrid model would be one which use both but in the same time and it can also work only if both parts work.

[Praxis]

It was cloned at least once, called NovaCoin something.

--

If eager programmers have a hard time deriving the implementation, so do eager attackers, thus attacking will not eager to happen.

Or it could be that Sunny knows its weaknesses, but believes they are not practical when the network is mature enough. As long as no ones discovers them at the early stage, it's good enough.

But NovaCoin had premine which ruined its reputation.
Perhaps someone could re-launch a NovaCoin-like coin (scrypt+pos) without premining.

[killerstorm]

If eager programmers have a hard time deriving the implementation, so do eager attackers, thus attacking will not eager to happen.

What makes you think that programmers have "hard time"? Nobody really cares...

Versions 0.1 and 0.2 were completely broken, there is very little interest to tear apart new version... But some people did that, and they say it is still broken...

[markm]

Programmers are waiting for Ripple source code so they can clone Ripple to make Ecopal.

(Or Ecopay, or whatever. Heck why not both? )

-MarkM-

[digicoin]

Creating another coin because you hate the name?

[markm]

Hey, it apparently worked for Litecoin! Copy Fairbrix, changing the name and using newer bitcoin code to base it on and presto, who remembers Fairbrix now?

-MarkM-