It's impossible for EVERYONE to benefit

[etheral]

No, it isn't.  But your understanding that it doesn't work is correct.

Still, I'd like to know - rather than by negative example - in what arena do you see it as possible for every participant to win?

it will never be possible for everyone to win. What bitcoins could theoretically do is to take away banks power, so that 99% of people would not be losing against banks, freedom from bank control, but at the same time, banks have their purpose and they will always exist, this is what history tells us and to believe otherwise is to believe in some kind of utopia

bitcoins have their purpose - money laundering and privacy, faster transactions and low fees, freedom from government control (although government is supposed to work for people, so that's another issue)


not losing is not the same as winning

[1715041720]

1715041720

[1715041720]

1715041720

[Cogine]

No, it isn't.  But your understanding that it doesn't work is correct.

Still, I'd like to know - rather than by negative example - in what arena do you see it as possible for every participant to win?

it will never be possible for everyone to win. What bitcoins could theoretically do is to take away banks power, so that 99% of people would not be losing against banks, freedom from bank control, but at the same time, banks have their purpose and they will always exist, this is what history tells us and to believe otherwise is to believe in some kind of utopia

bitcoins have their purpose - money laundering and privacy, faster transactions and low fees, freedom from government control (although government is supposed to work for people, so that's another issue)


not losing is not the same as winning

What you just described is exactly what many in the BTC community would considered "winning".
Yes, making money is very nice, but that is not the end game for BTC.
"Winning" can mean very many different things to very many different people in regards to BTC.

My 2BTC

[BTC Books]

No, it isn't.  But your understanding that it doesn't work is correct.

Still, I'd like to know - rather than by negative example - in what arena do you see it as possible for every participant to win?

it will never be possible for everyone to win. What bitcoins could theoretically do is to take away banks power, so that 99% of people would not be losing against banks, freedom from bank control, but at the same time, banks have their purpose and they will always exist, this is what history tells us and to believe otherwise is to believe in some kind of utopia

bitcoins have their purpose - money laundering and privacy, faster transactions and low fees, freedom from government control (although government is supposed to work for people, so that's another issue)


not losing is not the same as winning

it will never be possible for everyone to win.

Mmmm.  So your thread title is somewhat... divergent?... from that expression, no?

In any case, all I can say is this:  if I ever found myself living in an actual Utopia I would devote my life to its utter destruction.  And yes - I always played Chaotic Good...

[notme]

So since every coin I hold can be considered profit, by not cashing out I'm continuously making someone else lose, and will continue to do so until I do cash out?  How can that be?

I'll tell you... the real losers are going to be those who stick with fiat until it is too late.

only if you are the exchanger or mining bitcoins your self.... if you are holding bitcoins their number is not increasing, if you have 100 bitcoins now, you will have 100 after 10 years, where will be your profit then? the only profit you can make is to take money away from other people at the right time...

It doesn't matter.  You are not looking at a closed system.

It will only be a zero sum game if the exchange rate returns to its original value: 0.

Until that point (if it ever comes) we will have more winners than losers within bitcoin, and more losers than winnners in the fiat world.

[BitChick]

What you just described is exactly what many in the BTC community would considered "winning".
Yes, making money is very nice, but that is not the end game for BTC.
"Winning" can mean very many different things to very many different people in regards to BTC.

My 2BTC

Yes.  I think those that choose to purchase BTC early on will have more buying power later from the growth and desire for BTC, but it will not change the fact that BTC is valuable and useful just for what it is.  There will probably be a day when the price of BTC is saturated and does not fluctuate much, and there will probably be a great reward for those that invest early (There already is for those who bought a year ago) but there will be many people that will eventually need to use BTC and will use them with the sole desire of just having a way to transfer money quickly and without bank fees.  They will not see it as a ponzi scheme and it will still be very beneficial to them.

[dandirk]

Technically everyone could win, but that is a statistical improbability to the point that it's impossible.  I thought I heard somewhere that a small % of BTC available is actually being used/traded.

It could very well be possible... Lets say all the people that sold during the crash were "old btc" who bought in at $1-10... They would have won...  The people that bought at the top could still be holding so they could in theory still win...

I am sorry but the point is pretty silly honestly.  Sure not everyone wins... Just like not everyone is an asshole or a nice person and not every piece of bacon is delicious... oh wait... every piece of bacon is delicious:)

In this world, 99% of everything has winners and losers to some degree.  Captain Obvious award I think should be awarded.

[Crypt_Current]

If a person sells a commodity, it was their choice to do so and they agreed to a price at that time

Maybe that price made the person "feel good" at that time, or something similar.  They must have had a reason -- if they had none, then they acted out of irrationality/ insanity and have proven they don't deserve to hold the commodity anyway.

The market is the aggregate of individuals' choices.  Some of them chose wisely; some of them not so much.

That's life; get over it and move on.  Just try to make better and better decisions-- that's the best we can all do.

Personally I find that the more time I spend worrying about any supposed injustice or whatever you want to call it (tragedy of the commons, perhaps?) in the "poor saps who lost out", the more time it takes away from my ability to hone my own shrewdness.

Welcome to the Age of Aquarius -- the era of Horus: Crowned & Conquering Child -- the era of Personal Finanacial Liberty (& Ultimate Individual Responsibility).  Embrace the change or perish.

[sunblaster]

I WANT YOUR ZEROSUM!

[nazgulnarsil]

Eventually someone must be left holding shiny rocks when everyone else cashes out of gold!
Fiat, gold, bitcoin, stocks, they're all just arbitrary imaginary units representing abilities and characteristics humans value.  Bitcoin has unique characteristics.

[seleme]

How about we make this post the last one here. It's really stupid and pointless thread (many are though but this one is special).

[arepo]

Do you understand that it's impossible for everyone to win?

Speculation of bitcoins is just a way for people to steal from each other...  there will always be losers and winners, it is not much different from gambling

people put their money together and whoever exchanges his bitcoins at the right time will make a profit (and someone will have to take the equal loss)

whereas exchanges like mt.gox will continue to make profit either way

I know this is very basic but after reading this forum I am not sure if everyone understand this

so it's impossible for everyone to benefit, my guess is that numbers are close to 25-30% of people stealing from the rest (or making profit) similar to Forex

learn2gametheory and it'll seem less confusing/dumb.

and yes, i do think everyone realizes this, although when irrational bullish greed starts clouding this basic concept, it's usually a market top.

[1Pakis]

If the OP started mining on 03/01/2009, would he had made that post?
Late adopters whining.

[BitChick]

If the OP started mining on 03/01/2009, would he had made that post?
Late adopters whining.

In a few years there will be people whining that they did not buy in 2013.  It is just the nature of this.  However, people will sell out at different stages.  Eventually BTC will be more stable.  It will be a volatile ride for a while though.

[Geist]

If the OP started mining on 03/01/2009, would he had made that post?
Late adopters whining.

In a few years there will be people whining that they did not buy in 2013.  It is just the nature of this.

I like to think about it like this: I'm buying hundreds of mBTC now while their cheap, and I'll be rich when an mBTC hits $266.

[trepper]

How about we make this post the last one here. It's really stupid and pointless thread (many are though but this one is special).

Aren't you a little bit unfair ( fanatic?) on this one?

I've hardly found anything but stupid and pointless threads in the speculation subforum 
At least, this post does not pretend that he can predict the future...

[nicolazza]

i just hold, i have strong hands. while day traders win/lose/have fun, i build my bitcoin related site and wait for a price over 1k$.
i'll have NOT a lot of fiat, but a lot of purchasing power in the bitcoin world.

[anu]

If the OP started mining on 03/01/2009, would he had made that post?
Late adopters whining.

Everyone is a late adopter when he adopts Bitcoin. I was a late adopter in Summer 2011. Do you hear me whining? 

[ManBearPig]

I disagree.

If you're investing or speculating then you can't claim a benefit is your right - you're taking the risks, you deserve the ups and the downs.

As a transactional currency, many, many more will benefit from a cryptocurrency than they would with the old, slow, fallible way.

Therefore as Bitcoin's use in this way grows, the amount saved in credit card fees, wire transfers, chargebacks etc. is taken out of PayPal's or Visa's or a scammer's or your bank's pockets.

The existing financial organisations will be the biggest losers in this game. Much more so than any investors who fail to make a profit in a long-term bull market.

Now, doesn't that sound like everyone who matters benefits?

[herzmeister]

The 4000 year old bubble.

Who won, who lost? 

[Buffer Overflow]

Do you understand that it's impossible for everyone to win?

Quote from Bitcoin wiki:
"Bitcoin has an expected win-win outcome. Early and present adopters profit from the rise in value as Bitcoins become better understood and in turn demanded by the public at large. All adopters benefit from the usefulness of a reliable and widely-accepted decentralized peer-to-peer currency."

Everybody wins that embraces it. What are you talking about?