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Author Topic: The Barry Silbert segwit2x agreement with >80% miner support.  (Read 119967 times)
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philipma1957
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May 23, 2017, 09:17:43 PM
 #161

With bitcoin adding segwit, I wonder what's going to happen to a lot of altcoins as a result.  This is going to be a very interesting year.

It would be high time for BTC to become competitive with the alts. It's up 100% in a timeframe in which alts generally are up 1000%. I sense a lot of bitterness in the bitcoin maximalists who missed out.

If bitcoin can navigate the minefield now before it (and I feel less confident than I did last night when I was finally starting to get optimistic), it could have SW+LN in August, along with Rootstock smart contracts. But it is lagging badly behind Ethereum in terms of the partnerships and businesses already working based on the Ethereum platform, and frankly I don't think Bitcoin will regain the lead there.

Even with plenty of TX capacity Bitcoin still has 10 minute confirmation times, making it a real drag transferring coins. Lately I've taken to selling into Dogecoin to move small amounts, as much for the speed improvement as for the TX fee. And Zcash got a huge boost today with the JPMorgan news. It, Dash, Bytecoin and Monero all have a lead in native privacy features that Bitcoin lacks.

The point being, the Bitcoin maximalists are kidding themselves when they imagine everyone returning solely to Bitcoin. It's a multipolar cryptoverse now, and we may never see Bitcoin at 50% of market again. Even if we do I expect it to be temporary.

Well  at least someone sees what I see.

btc  waited too long to simply 2x the block size.

 the wait has given alt coin real value.

btc has lost its hammer.


4 more months before they do what they should not do to fix it.

This will be fun to see.





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May 23, 2017, 09:21:54 PM
 #162

It kinda sorta looks like they might have vaguely come to a final agreement:
https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/breaking-bitcoin-miners-reach-scaling-agreement/

According to this the timeframe is now 6 months and is a scheduled parallel hard fork with both segwit and 2MB as predicted.

However according to tweets like this:
https://twitter.com/sysmannet/status/867124645279006720

Some of the countersigners thought they were signing for segwit first so it appears those who signed didn't even know what they were signing.

LOL I feel like just stopping reading news for a a few weeks and just come back when they've all made up their freaking minds.

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May 23, 2017, 09:36:17 PM
 #163

However according to tweets like this:
https://twitter.com/sysmannet/status/867124645279006720

Some of the countersigners thought they were signing for segwit first so it appears those who signed didn't even know what they were signing.

Fuck me.

Before they left the room each person should've been forced to read the statement out loud and press an 'I agree' button at the end of every sentence.


best thing about this is kicking out the core devs from their throne.  Bitcoin might have a chance now. yay!!!

I think their refusal to turn up reflects rather poorly on them, though I've no idea how much notice was given. It's starting to look a little like they're more interested in sneering than working towards something everyone's happy enough with.
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May 23, 2017, 09:41:37 PM
 #164

best thing about this is kicking out the core devs from their throne.  Bitcoin might have a chance now. yay!!!

So you admit it. It never was about big blocks, transaction delays, big fees... It was all about taking over bitcoin and kicking the core devs out.

After all you said about segwit and how bad it is, you are fine with a HF/Segwit ain't ya?

You are just giving the core devs another reason to press the red button.

#UASF & PoW Change

Let's go nuclear. Fuck ASICs

.
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ComputerGenie
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May 23, 2017, 09:46:02 PM
 #165

...Some of the countersigners thought they were signing for segwit first so it appears those who signed didn't even know what they were signing...
Given that the actual March proposal read:
Quote
...This means that segwit would be activated before 2Mb: this is inevitable,
as versionbits have been designed to have fixed activation periods and
thresholds for all bits....
I'm not sure where he (Alex Petrov) is wrong in his belief.  Undecided

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Always be on the look out, because you never know when you'll be stalked by hit-men that eat nothing but cream cheese....
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May 23, 2017, 09:50:33 PM
 #166

...Let's go nuclear. Fuck ASICs
There's now billions of dollars invested in Bitcoin; even if the world turned upside down and the alg changed, new ASICs would be out in less than 2 months.   Roll Eyes

If you have to ask "why?", you wouldn`t understand my answer.
Always be on the look out, because you never know when you'll be stalked by hit-men that eat nothing but cream cheese....
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May 23, 2017, 09:54:41 PM
 #167

best thing about this is kicking out the core devs from their throne.  Bitcoin might have a chance now. yay!!!

So you admit it. It never was about big blocks, transaction delays, big fees... It was all about taking over bitcoin and kicking the core devs out.

After all you said about segwit and how bad it is, you are fine with a HF/Segwit ain't ya?

You are just giving the core devs another reason to press the red button.

#UASF & PoW Change

Let's go nuclear. Fuck ASICs

We all know what jonald is about. His constant shilling against Core Devs made it obvious.

Scaling was never about scaling, it was always about CONTROL.

"Darkness is good. Dick Cheney. Darth Vader. Satan. That's power." -Steve Bannon
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May 23, 2017, 10:25:02 PM
 #168

I think their refusal to turn up reflects rather poorly on them, though I've no idea how much notice was given. It's starting to look a little like they're more interested in sneering than working towards something everyone's happy enough with.
Core developers were NOT invited.

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May 23, 2017, 10:27:14 PM
 #169

Core developers were NOT invited.

According to this they were.



But I've no idea who or what to believe any more.
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May 23, 2017, 10:29:00 PM
 #170

Core developers were NOT invited.

According to this they were.



But I've no idea who or what to believe any more.
Looks like a last minute invitation to the final meeting? My understanding was this was in the works for weeks.

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May 23, 2017, 10:30:04 PM
 #171

Looks like a last minute invitation to the final meeting? My understanding was this was in the works for weeks.

No idea. There's not enough context to be able to tell. Maybe some will be supplied at some point by someone.
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May 23, 2017, 10:38:27 PM
 #172

I'm pretty sure that the true reason Matt Corallo turned down the invite is because, in less than 10 minutes after the proposal was originally posted, he posted a long-winded polite version of saying, "This dumb shit will never work the way you think it will"*.




*obviously paraphrased into my own words

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Always be on the look out, because you never know when you'll be stalked by hit-men that eat nothing but cream cheese....
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May 23, 2017, 10:41:23 PM
 #173

This new proposal here is 1000x better and deserves serious exposure and consideration: https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2017-May/014399.html

Bitcoin - Peer to Peer Electronic CASH
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May 23, 2017, 10:41:34 PM
 #174

The item that mostly worries me from the proposal is that it doesn't address quadratic validation time.
Solution is pretty trivial:
Quote from: Sergio Demian Lerner
To prevent worsening block verification time because of the O(N^2) hashing
problem, the simple restriction that transactions cannot be larger than 1Mb
has been kept. Therefore the worse-case of block verification time has only
doubled.

Ah, thanks, didn't know that it was that trivial (I wrongly thought that the "maximum block size" and "maximum transaction size" were connected in some way).

Is this included in the miners' proposal? If Lerner is one of the developers contributing to that solution (I read RSK Labs is participating), then it should be the case. Is there already publicly viewable source code for the "agreement update"?

If this is the case, I think, the Core supporters should simply (grudgingly) accept the proposal. It's better than an UASF because of the significant danger of a chain split - and it's really not worth it to polarize even more only because of a different timeline (HF in late 2017 or in 2018 ...). They should however try to convince the "consensus group" to change the HF date to a more distant point in the future. It should not be that difficult.

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May 23, 2017, 10:46:49 PM
 #175

We all know what jonald is about. His constant shilling against Core Devs made it obvious.

Scaling was never about scaling, it was always about CONTROL.

No, don't be so over-simplistic. We always had two problems here:

- A blockchain that needed a scaling solution

- A group of devs that were trying to convince us with a scaling solution that was a poisonous pill. By pushing the pill they showed they were working for the interests of a very particular company most of them are employees of, which own intellectual property over the benefits of SegWit

Personally I always considered Bitcoin XT a more elegant scaling solution, but I supported BU as it has more probabilities to succeed. I still think this new solution is imperfect because we will need further scaling in the future and Segwit (even if not Blockstream's) will give us many headaches and dramas in the future. However:

- It scales Bitcoin

- It removes Core devs from the equation. Or if they board this boat they know they can't do with BTC what they'll please

- It is almost ensured to succeed in terms of adoption

So I support this solution
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May 23, 2017, 10:54:08 PM
 #176


Ah, thanks, didn't know that it was that trivial (I wrongly thought that the "maximum block size" and "maximum transaction size" were connected in some way).

Is this included in the miners' proposal? If Lerner is one of the developers contributing to that solution (I read RSK Labs is participating), then it should be the case. Is there already publicly viewable source code for the "agreement update"?

If this is the case, I think, the Core supporters should simply (grudgingly) accept the proposal. It's better than an UASF because of the significant danger of a chain split - and it's really not worth it to polarize even more only because of a different timeline (HF in late 2017 or in 2018 ...). They should however try to convince the "consensus group" to change the HF date to a more distant point in the future. It should not be that difficult.
Actually maximum transaction size and maximum block size ARE connected. There are currently no limits on transaction size which means one transaction can be the size of the whole block. To actually restrict it to 1MB requires a fork that makes it part of the consensus rules. Nonetheless since no blocks have been larger than 1MB so far, to do so as part of the hard fork block size increase is the easiest time to implement it. There have been many arguments against limiting transaction size to date based on the censoring concerns in case there was a valid reason to create some kind of massive transaction. I don't have an opinion either way since I don't know how realistic the long term requirement for a >1MB transaction is. Perhaps it could be the collective transactions for one massive company for a day or something, not sure...

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May 23, 2017, 11:05:25 PM
 #177

best thing about this is kicking out the core devs from their throne.  Bitcoin might have a chance now. yay!!!

So you admit it. It never was about big blocks, transaction delays, big fees... It was all about taking over bitcoin and kicking the core devs out.

After all you said about segwit and how bad it is, you are fine with a HF/Segwit ain't ya?

You are just giving the core devs another reason to press the red button.

#UASF & PoW Change

Let's go nuclear. Fuck ASICs
I personally always wondered if it was some vendetta with the Core devs, but it has been starting to seem like that's a big portion behind everything they have going. Seems like there's just a desire to force power away from some people and there isn't necessarily a ton of reasoning. Segwit soft fork has been looking good, but hey, a nuke to end the miners for fun might be something to spice up the community.
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May 23, 2017, 11:14:55 PM
 #178

So Barry Allen is the new Satoshi or the new Flash?
Where were these new gods of Bitcoin all this time?
What is SegWit non-core, couldn't the core devs propose this non-core version? IK this one should have a LOL.
When we're all dead Bitcoin is going to be around, devs come and go, what matters is code stays open and network remains decentralized and consensus be the voting mechanism.

However I'd say lets fork Satoshi's coins and put them in a trust account for Bitcoin improvement and development in the future, devs should get paid somehow for their hard work if they are not paid then they can be easily bought.
Once again we're slaves with governments being very much bigger cartel of the mining cartel, so we'll get used to these ones as well.

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May 23, 2017, 11:14:58 PM
Last edit: May 23, 2017, 11:46:16 PM by freedomno1
 #179

No issue with this proposal in theory this is now a battle Between 148 and 149 ignores Silbert but it is annoying due to how signalling has not reached consensus a forced fork date on both versions is a trap.

Once we hit this current period where escalating fees impact the overall user experience and by extension bitcoin services the countdown started between the sides towards a solution that will not make all users happy but will extend the clock.

One side will side with the Asset Class definition for Bitcoin and limiting the size of Bitcoin the pure 1MB faction, the other will grow and adjust the blockchain size over time in order to provide payment services through Bitcoin and that debate will continue.

This proposal is one of two acting as a temporary halting point so that the end users are unaffected and the services that process user transactions while client side users are untouched for the most part but will be forced to run new nodes.

Segwit or not the main issue is the need for more space on the blocks until we build a better solution to compensate miners after block subsidizes decrease with this they will have till 2020 to look at the issue in depth, for now 2MB will do the trick for the expand faction without wiping out miner fees significantly and get us there, only this route leads to a fork.
(We can call this period the excess profit period where on top of block rewards high txt fees exist and with 300,000 Transactions in the mempool that is not going to change for a while yet and is the opportunity of a lifetime if we do fork all new chains will retain the Bitcoins owned today.)

Forcing users to accept the 2MB size limitations and install a new Bitcoin client is not as good as a USAF since some users will not recognize the new chain and need to install new clients hence 2 Bitcoin chains, and it means there may be a 3.0 looming from this 2.0 Hard Fork unless its coded to be able to dynamically adjust the max size to demand not even mentioning other issues if the code has a bug.

In reality we may see this implementation succeed though due to the collective hash of the mining pools, but I am concerned of a Segwit version that is not coded and not run without testnet scrypt first.

Interesting times in Bitcoin the worst case we get 3 to 4 Bitcoins and press the Nuclear fragmentation option the Poker hands are revealed how will this play out, unfortunately it may be a self fulfilling prophecy if the question is who will pull the trigger and start the true mad descent which is currently programmed to be before the end of midnight November 15th 2017. OR this version that jumps ahead and is forked on September 21, 2017. But not before August 1 when the BIP 148 nodes reject any Bitcoin blocks that do not signal support for Segregated Witness via BIP 9.
Original, USAF, Silbert, Silbert 2.0

Gah this is going to be a pita.
At the minimum we will have a Segwit Chain and a Non-Segwit chain as a possible outcome to simplify it if this splits the consensus.

In my opinion USAF had the time and testing to prove itself we don't need to flip Segwit twice ... but props to Shaolinfury for a dual proposal.
https://bitcoinmagazine.com/articles/bip-148-and-bip-149-two-uasfs-activate-segwit/
https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0148.mediawiki



LOL I feel like just stopping reading news for a a few weeks and just come back when they've all made up their freaking minds.

-ck knows where it's at see you at the drama pageant, all we need is Bruno in a tutu to get consensus on something Tongue

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May 23, 2017, 11:48:12 PM
 #180

...devs should get paid somehow for their hard work if they are not paid then they can be easily bought...
Their being paid is what "buys them" and gives them incentive to actively work against any other group. By the nature of being human, Core devs are financial incentivized to use whatever means "necessary" to perpetuate the myth that Core is the "official" dev team. The only way to truly make it decentralized is to defund the Core dev team.

If you have to ask "why?", you wouldn`t understand my answer.
Always be on the look out, because you never know when you'll be stalked by hit-men that eat nothing but cream cheese....
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