Do we want to work with money regulators, or keep Bitcoin unregulated?

[xxjs]

Tax on bartering is possible because of the work expended by both parties. Here is a realistic plumber - electrican example (this is somewhere in Europe):

Each party builds a house, and one does plumbing for the other, and one does electrician work for the other. Materials taken out of the calculation for now, see below.

Electrician:
Customer pays 10000 (or doesnt pay in case of barter)
Work value: = 8000
Value added tax: 25% = 2000
Salary= work value minus employer tax 18% = 8000/(1+0.18) = 6679
Employer tax (self employed or incorporated, doesn't matter) 18% of 6679 = 1440
Employee income tax 35%, 6679 * 0.35 = 2337 (could be more, it is a progressive tax)
Total taxes= 2000 + 1440 + 2337 = 5777

For the plumber, the calculation is exactly the same.
In case this is done in a white fashion, each party pays 5777 in taxes.

In case of barter, each party should pay the taxes, according to the tax man.
In fact, even if the plumber works on his own house, he should pay the taxes, unless he does it in his own spare time, according to the tax man. He can not take an extra week off to do the work, according to the tax man.

Clues the tax guy uses to counter tax evation, is
a) Parts bought, that is not pushed out to some paying customer
b) Missing income - workdays not accounted for
c) Company car outside a building site.
d) Anything.

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[johnyj]

My experience is that better work with regulators, the attitude is much more important, if you are cooperative but technically uncapable of helping them, they will not bother. I think technically they can not regulate bitcoin and even if they did succeed, a fork will appear. Just showing that you are not hostile to them is enough

[flavius]

you guys are such faggots even posting in this thread

[td services]

Flavius is one of those breeder boys you hear tap dancing in the next stall over while groaning with delight from the 12" kickstart vibrator shoved up his ass.

[Rez]

I hate the thought of Bitcoin getting co-opted into "the system".  Ideally, I don't want to see regulators involved.  Whether or not that's a realistic idea is another story, but I don't think the Bitcoin Community should consent to bending over and grabbing its ankles.

What has to happen now is a strong push for educating the public at large.  Mark Twain said "A lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is still putting on its shoes."  Every boogeyman fear-scenario being promulgated about Bitcoin (It's used for DRUGS, it's used by PORNOGRAPHERS, it's used by BAD PEOPLE) can be said for governmental legal tender.  EVERY scenario.  Those early-early-early adopters who have substantial quantities of BTC would do well to use some of those coins to finance public-education ad campaigns.  National newspapers and magazines.  Radio and television.  Consider it an investment - because if the Powers That Be control the message, those stockpiles of Bitcoin could become worthless - or worse, illegal.

[crumbs]

These photos should really lift Crumbs's skirt while she licks the jackboots of the corporate state, http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/RM1.PHOTOS.ROOM1.HTM . http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/20TH.HTM lists a couple of hundred million really good reasons to be an anarchist.

Little bit of trivia - Governments have killed more of their own people than have died in all world wars.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democide

Oh, you got me!  I actually clicked on that!  And then the talk page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Democide)  
And this talk page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Rudolph_Rummel
Thanks for the lulz, have a kitty!

I don't understand why anyone would think that the murdering of millions of innocent people  are "Lulz" - it is actually quite reprehensible and they should be ashamed of themselves.

I get it, you're slow, so i'll explain it to you: 
No, posting links to the guy who claims more of my people were murdered by their own leaders than Third Reich armies during WW2 isn't funny.  Though expecting anyone to take that BS seriously is.

Go away and stop hassling me
[...]
Please stop trolling me.

You troll me, expect to be trolled back, sweetums. ^^^^^^

[rovchris]

These photos should really lift Crumbs's skirt while she licks the jackboots of the corporate state, http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/RM1.PHOTOS.ROOM1.HTM . http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/20TH.HTM lists a couple of hundred million really good reasons to be an anarchist.

Little bit of trivia - Governments have killed more of their own people than have died in all world wars.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democide

Oh, you got me!  I actually clicked on that!  And then the talk page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Democide)  
And this talk page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Rudolph_Rummel
Thanks for the lulz, have a kitty!

I don't understand why anyone would think that the murdering of millions of innocent people  are "Lulz" - it is actually quite reprehensible and they should be ashamed of themselves.

Would you like me to explain it to you or be left alone?  Can't both baite me and expect to be left alone.  And no, posting links to the guy who claims more of my people were murdered by their own leaders than Third Reich armies during WW2 isn't funny.  Though expecting anyone to take that BS seriously is.

Go away and stop hassling me
[...]
Please stop trolling me.

You troll me, expect to be trolled back, sweetums. ^^^^^^

Listen you are a nasty vile little person who thinks millions of  people being murdered is "Lulz"

So go away I would be amazed if anyone on this forum would want to associate with you.

The more posts you make just exposes you for who you really are - so actually please keep posting.

[crumbs]

The more posts you make just exposes you for who you really are - so actually please keep posting.

Uhmmmm.  OK!

[rovchris]

The more posts you make just exposes you for who you really are - so actually please keep posting.

Uhmmmm.  OK!

Maybe you would like to read this before mocking the deaths of people

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/sep/13/internet-troll-jailed-mocking-teenagers

And as you have quite clearly mocked the death of those people and left a nice little audit trail of it - I would seriously go away.

[crumbs]

The more posts you make just exposes you for who you really are - so actually please keep posting.

Uhmmmm.  OK!

Maybe you would like to read this before mocking the deaths of people

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/sep/13/internet-troll-jailed-mocking-teenagers

And as you have quite clearly mocked the death of those people and left a nice little audit trail of it - I would seriously go away.

You tell me that Russia's leaders have killed more of my people than all of Hitler's Axis forces (i don't need Godwin's law here, the idiot in your link actually makes that claim), and after trolling me with that insulting revisionist BS you tell me I'm mocking people's deaths?  Listen, listen, i'll clue you in:  I'm not mocking people's deaths, i'm mocking *you*

[td services]

I don't know who 'your people' are, but it is a fact that the Allied governments killed more of their own citizens, over 20,000,000 people, than the Axis governments, about 12,000,000. These figures don't include other infractions, like the British invention of the modern concentration camp during the Boer Wars, the fire bombing of Dresden, the US genocide of the indigenous population...

[crumbs]

I don't know who 'your people' are, but it is a fact that the Allied governments killed more of their own citizens, over 20,000,000 people, than the Axis governments, about 12,000,000. These figures don't include other infractions, like the British invention of the modern concentration camp during the Boer Wars, the fire bombing of Dresden, the US genocide of the indigenous population...

My people are Russians -- Soviet Union at the time.  Soviet casualties, military: 9-14 million, civilian: 12-17 million.  So 21,000,000 minimum.  You claim 20 million total for all Allies.
Not even going to bother with the rest ... oh, why not:  Dresden was an Axis, not an Allied city (Not "own people.") Get it? Boer wars, also known as Anglo-Boer wars, though curiously not Anglo-Anglo wars, or Boer-Boer wars.  Care to guess why? (hint:  Not own people!)  And yes, Americans did slaughter indians, steal their land & did a whole bunch of other nastiness.  (hint:  not their own people again!)  See how that works?
Now stop trusting your research to guys with lightning bolts & 8s tattooed on their foreheads.

[justusranvier]

Can we just agree that Hitler, Stalin, and Roosevelt were all dictators whose orders caused the deaths of millions?

[td services]

More like the German government, the Russian government, and the United States government are all mass murdering pathological entities whose actions caused the deaths of millions.

One technique of whitewashing the horrific history of government is to place the blame on an individual or group, like Hitler and the Nazis, or Stalin, or Pol Pot, rather than on the government which actually committed the atrocity.

Can we just agree that Hitler, Stalin, and Roosevelt were all dictators whose orders caused the deaths of millions?

[justusranvier]

One technique of whitewashing the horrific history of government is to place the blame on an individual or group, like Hitler and the Nazis, or Stalin, or Pol Pot, rather than on the government which actually committed the atrocity.

That is true.

One person can only do so much via his own efforts, and unless millions of people throughout an entire society are complicit his orders are just meaningless hot air.

[td services]

I don't know who 'your people' are, but it is a fact that the Allied governments killed more of their own citizens, over 20,000,000 people, than the Axis governments, about 12,000,000. These figures don't include other infractions, like the British invention of the modern concentration camp during the Boer Wars, the fire bombing of Dresden, the US genocide of the indigenous population...

My people are Russians -- Soviet Union at the time.  Soviet casualties, military: 9-14 million, civilian: 12-17 million.  So 21,000,000 minimum.  You claim 20 million total for all Allies.
Not even going to bother with the rest ... oh, why not:  Dresden was an Axis, not an Allied city (Not "own people.") Get it? Boer wars, also known as Anglo-Boer wars, though curiously not Anglo-Anglo wars, or Boer-Boer wars.  Care to guess why? (hint:  Not own people!)  And yes, Americans did slaughter indians, steal their land & did a whole bunch of other nastiness.  (hint:  not their own people again!)  See how that works?
Now stop trusting your research to guys with lightning bolts & 8s tattooed on their foreheads.

Can't argue with you there - it only further proves the point that government is by far the leading cause of unnatural death - non-governmental terrorism, non-governmental organized crime, individual criminals, and the occasional nutjob mass shooter have a couple of hundred million in body count to go to match government as a cause of bulk megadeath. Democide only tallies government murdering its own citizens. War, of course, adds quite a bit more to the score.

Even religion runs a distant second to government as a source of atrocity. Racking up body count for Jesus, Yahweh, or Allah was considered a ticket to a great afterlife, though from what I've seen, it looks like it'll be a pretty seedy neighborhood judging from the people most intent on going there.

Terrorists are people who want to become governments, governments are terrorists who are already in power.

[TippingPoint]

Interesting stuff.

Democide
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democide

"The more power a regime has, the more likely people will be killed. This is a major reason for promoting freedom." Rummel concludes that concentrated political power is the most dangerous thing on earth."

Bitcoins make the world a safer place.  _TippingPoint

[crumbs]

I don't know who 'your people' are, but it is a fact that the Allied governments killed more of their own citizens, over 20,000,000 people, than the Axis governments, about 12,000,000. These figures don't include other infractions, like the British invention of the modern concentration camp during the Boer Wars, the fire bombing of Dresden, the US genocide of the indigenous population...

My people are Russians -- Soviet Union at the time.  Soviet casualties, military: 9-14 million, civilian: 12-17 million.  So 21,000,000 minimum.  You claim 20 million total for all Allies.
Not even going to bother with the rest ... oh, why not:  Dresden was an Axis, not an Allied city (Not "own people.") Get it? Boer wars, also known as Anglo-Boer wars, though curiously not Anglo-Anglo wars, or Boer-Boer wars.  Care to guess why? (hint:  Not own people!)  And yes, Americans did slaughter indians, steal their land & did a whole bunch of other nastiness.  (hint:  not their own people again!)  See how that works?
Now stop trusting your research to guys with lightning bolts & 8s tattooed on their foreheads.

Can't argue with you there - it only further proves the point that government is by far the leading cause of unnatural death - non-governmental terrorism, non-governmental organized crime, individual criminals, and the occasional nutjob mass shooter have a couple of hundred million in body count to go to match government as a cause of bulk megadeath. Democide only tallies government murdering its own citizens. War, of course, adds quite a bit more to the score.

Of course governments are the cause of much wholesale death -- wars, suppressing opposition, borking economic & social conditions to the point where people die of starvation and disease, or start fighting each other like rats in an overcrowded cage.  Denial of facts saddens our esteemed and infallible Fact Cat, creating a logical fallacy.  Do not want.
The notion that those nasty thing would disappear along with governments is equally repugnant to Fact Cat, along with the notion that banning guns will solve the murder problem.  Just as short-sighted and simpleminded.

Governments kill people?  Guns kill people.  While Fact Cat, in all of his wisdom, would point out that governments often do useful things, like build & plow roads & get rid of the unsightly poor by sending them overseas to get killed out of our earshot, His Wisdom wouldn't fail to mention that the Luger Parabellum, while being the sexiest handgun evar, is designed with one thing in mind -- killing.  Fact Cat, not being a pussy, loves his Luger.

Fact Cat hates the government, but he also understands how governments came to be -- the same way that Lugers came to be:  the people wanted some killing done.  Governments were consistently overthrown throughout history -- like Fact Cat, people always hated governments.  And while lulzy, the efforts always amounted to the same thing:  A new government  
Wat do?

Even religion runs a distant second to government as a source of atrocity. Racking up body count for Jesus, Yahweh, or Allah was considered a ticket to a great afterlife, though from what I've seen, it looks like it'll be a pretty seedy neighborhood judging from the people most intent on going there.

Organised religion is a form of government.  The "organised" part is the giveaway here.  In many places, during many times, it overlapped with secular law to the extent where the two were indistinguishable.  Don't mistake this for intrinsic oppressiveness of religion -- mankind simply has a habit of taking great ideas & shitting them up.

Terrorists are people who want to become governments, governments are terrorists who are already in power.

Either terrorists are incredibly stupid & don't get that piloting a jet into a wall sort-a precludes them from from doing much of anything other than dieing, or they have some other stuff in mind...

[Snail2]

These guys in the foundation are frightening.

"One does not establish a dictatorship in order to safeguard a revolution; one makes the revolution in order to establish the dictatorship." 

[edd]

These guys in the foundation are frightening.

"One does not establish a dictatorship in order to safeguard a revolution; one makes the revolution in order to establish the dictatorship." 

Where did that quote come from?