What power does Traders have on the Bitcoin price ?

[CosmicVibe]

Hi here !

So, the captitalization of BTC reached 40B $ , this is nice but not huge at all compared to FIAT currencies.

My question is : with such a "low" amount of money, does the traders have real power over the Bitcoin price ? I always heared about the natural inflation, simply more demand etc... But don't you think that if a lot of early investors with huge amount of BTC could gather and have control over its price ? Or they are simply slave of the system like every one of us ?

I'm waiting for your toughts 

[European Central Bank]

the bigger it becomes, the harder it is for small groups of people to control the price, but it is still possible.

no one sets the price other than the people buying and selling on the exchanges and there probably ain't very many who do it full time. but all it takes is one surge of serious demand and the coins they use to play are eaten up and never returned.

in the early days on mt gox there was one guy who was putting up walls of thousands of coins, the chart was a vertical line into infinity. some other guy came along, bought it all and he was never heard from again.

[CosmicVibe]

in the early days on mt gox there was one guy who was putting up walls of thousands of coins, the chart was a vertical line into infinity. some other guy came along, bought it all and he was never heard from again.

Isn't that the story of the Bearwhale ? I've heard about that.

[European Central Bank]

Isn't that the story of the Bearwhale ? I've heard about that.

similar, but this was years before, maybe 2011 or 12.

that guy on mt gox was putting up walls of tens or hundreds of thousands of coins. all gone in one buy.

if you're interested the bearwhale has returned - https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/6d2tp1/i_am_the_bearwhale_uasf_now/

but in his case he intentionally wanted to sell all at once. he wasn't eaten up by buyers. pretty stupid move but he still got millions of dollars.

[Idrisu]

For now traders are the determinants of bitcoin pricing and the forces of demand and supply are the tools in their hand. The market capitalization of bitcoin which stood at over $41b today are sign that bitcoin is not control by individuals, governments and nations.

[deisik]

the bigger it becomes, the harder it is for small groups of people to control the price, but it is still possible

I'm sorry but it works the other way round

Market cap should be made a taboo word across the forum since it has lured so many people into delusions and forced them to arrive at false conclusions. More specifically, market cap is just the price multiplied by some constant (more or less constant variable). But as I have already explained it numerous times and harsh reality has already proved my words, higher price destabilizes the market since you would need less amount of coins (both crypto and fiat) to "reach out and touch the price". Thereby, even small groups of people are then able to control or otherwise manipulate the price (even if temporarily), contrary to your claims

[European Central Bank]

Thereby, even small groups of people are then able to control or affect the price, contrary to your claims

that assumes that the same old bunch of people are selling and buying back their coins all the way through. every wall that's put up is at least partially eaten by someone else. and eventually a whale bigger than you swallows you whole and the cycle starts again. i don't believe the traders that dominated in 2013 will be the same people in 2020.

[bitbunnny]

I don't think that traders directly determine the Bitcoin price. Maybe the wales ans that ones who trade realy big sums but it's more thing about the demand and supply. Despite some theories I don't think that any group isn't powerful enough to control and influence the Bitcoin price on their own.

[VC George]

the bigger it becomes, the harder it is for small groups of people to control the price, but it is still possible.

no one sets the price other than the people buying and selling on the exchanges and there probably ain't very many who do it full time. but all it takes is one surge of serious demand and the coins they use to play are eaten up and never returned.

in the early days on mt gox there was one guy who was putting up walls of thousands of coins, the chart was a vertical line into infinity. some other guy came along, bought it all and he was never heard from again.

I agree, it can happen if say 5 whales gather at August and do their move
Low trading volume and it will be easier for them to push the prices and
essentially "play" with the rest people trading at those looping periods.

[BillyBobZorton]

Not that much. In 2014, a bitcoin whale dumped 37 million worth of bitcoin or something along the lines, and the sell order (which was a single huge wall) got quickly eaten.

Notice that the price was around $300, so back then whales would have cause much more damage easier.


Here you can see the sell wall in action and how it got eaten:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-uX_bB_4VJk

[BitFinnese]

Isn't whales are traders?  If yes, this means Traders have power to dictate Bitcoin price.  They are the one  supplying and demanding bitcoin according to their target price  that is after they bought the coin from the first supplier (Miners). But, most Miners who supply the market with fresh Bitcoins from mining are traders too.  

[bouren]

Hi here !

So, the captitalization of BTC reached 40B $ , this is nice but not huge at all compared to FIAT currencies.

My question is : with such a "low" amount of money, does the traders have real power over the Bitcoin price ? I always heared about the natural inflation, simply more demand etc... But don't you think that if a lot of early investors with huge amount of BTC could gather and have control over its price ? Or they are simply slave of the system like every one of us ?

I'm waiting for your toughts 

Ok starting from cap. You said $40B cap. Let me tell you such caps are just imaginary and estimated, nothing to do with real money flow in bitcoin. It is ascertain from no. of btc * present price.
Now coming to trader influence over price. I don't feel at least 2017 traders have any influence over price. When millions of dollars are traded in btc everyday, how could someone holding even 100-150 btc effect the price significantly.
Although don't know if some union or associations are working to drive prices.

[Faiyz]

Isn't whales are traders?  If yes, this means Traders have power to dictate Bitcoin price.  They are the one  supplying and demanding bitcoin according to their target price  that is after they bought the coin from the first supplier (Miners). But, most Miners who supply the market with fresh Bitcoins from mining are traders too.  

Or even its existence. Btc wont appear without miners thus traders' only job is to profit by storing some amount then selling. Seems boring but thats already part of it. Can't just really changed something because it is there. Prices also increase to increase in supply and sometimes demands can make it's price increase too. either ways it is not always traders that affect the price but also on how much it is willing to risk for it to not die at least.

[deisik]

Thereby, even small groups of people are then able to control or affect the price, contrary to your claims

that assumes that the same old bunch of people are selling and buying back their coins all the way through. every wall that's put up is at least partially eaten by someone else. and eventually a whale bigger than you swallows you whole and the cycle starts again. i don't believe the traders that dominated in 2013 will be the same people in 2020.

If I got your point right, that should be inconsequential to my point

One whale eating another whale or one shark attacking another shark - this all happens at lower walls, i.e. with reduced number of coins if the price is to stay balanced (when demand approximately equals supply). Otherwise the price would inevitably crash to a new balance (or surge to a new high), and this is what now happens, and this also proves that my theory of escaping volatility (ultimately leading to Bitcoin Big Rip) is correct

[ImHash]

They are already manipulating the price, those early adopters/ whales of the present time, but as the price grows and marketcap increases it becomes harder and much difficult to simply manipulate the market, don't you think bitcoin is small compared to fiat total marketcap. bitcoin is big as it is, generated out of thin air, that is even a million dollar market is a miracle.

[Weatherby]

They are already manipulating the price, those early adopters/ whales of the present time, but as the price grows and marketcap increases it becomes harder and much difficult to simply manipulate the market, don't you think bitcoin is small compared to fiat total marketcap. bitcoin is big as it is, generated out of thin air, that is even a million dollar market is a miracle.

First and foremost bitcoin is not generated out of thin air,it is a carefully calculated and an innovative network and the person who created this phenomena is a genius without a doubt to create a new form of electronic value so that the whole world starts accepting it and if you start evaluating an asset which has a huge market cap you really cannot make a point that it is a fluke inventions .Manipulation can be done when there are a small amount of people but it is hard to make a huge impact when the number of users are huge.

[rickadone]

if a lot of early investors with huge amount of BTC could gather and have control over its price ? Or they are simply slave of the system like every one of us ?

In the limited supply environment, the early whale investors will lose their power when there will be enough many small investors come in.
The prices nor market cap are insignificant here but only how many people are currently adopting alone matters big.

For example : There are 100 units in one market and there are 10 traders and only one trader is holding 40 units and remaining 60 units are being controlled by rest of 9 traders. The price of one unit is reaching $1/$10/$100 and now that whale sells his all 40 units and there are only 9 traders to match those selling and prices may reach to $0.01 also.

But in the case of those 9 traders becoming a group of 100 traders by trading those 60 units and waiting for buying more units. Now that whale's selling of all 40 units might not enough for those 100 traders and prices will not find any significant down fall.

Whales will lose power when there will be more adopters joining us !

[talkbitcoin]

But don't you think that if a lot of early investors with huge amount of BTC could gather and have control over its price ?

yes and no.
in my opinion it is always a battle. when we are talking about something like bitcoin that is well distributed then it is like a battle. there are a lot of whales, aka the early adopters, and there are a lot more big players with less amounts than whales and there are a lot more traders with regular amounts.
these groups don't work with each other. if someone or couple of them decide to go against the market or try to push it in other direction they will not succeed 100%.

as an example of failure you can see in the past months when price was rising from the $888 dip Bitstamp whales have been dumping the price in there but all the other exchanges were rising. finally the market won and price broke $1200 and continued rising.

[klf]

I don't think that traders directly determine the Bitcoin price. Maybe the wales ans that ones who trade realy big sums but it's more thing about the demand and supply. Despite some theories I don't think that any group isn't powerful enough to control and influence the Bitcoin price on their own.

Since now bitcoin market capitalization has grown quite big so it is not so easy for any big whales also to control the market prices for a long time. But for short term than can do some impact but for the longer term results only demand and supply makes the difference. If slowly more and more public start holding coins and don't trade them then its demand will grow even higher.

[deisik]

I don't think that traders directly determine the Bitcoin price. Maybe the wales ans that ones who trade realy big sums but it's more thing about the demand and supply. Despite some theories I don't think that any group isn't powerful enough to control and influence the Bitcoin price on their own.

Since now bitcoin market capitalization has grown quite big so it is not so easy for any big whales also to control the market prices for a long time. But for short term than can do some impact but for the longer term results only demand and supply makes the difference. If slowly more and more public start holding coins and don't trade them then its demand will grow even higher

It seems that people will never stop falling the victim of the market cap appeal, charm and magic

Market cap doesn't mean a shit on its own, and in regard to how easy (or how difficult, for that matter) it is for whales to manipulate the market, its increase works in quite the opposite direction to what you assume. That is, market cap increase in short term simply reflects the price rising, and with the price rising the market is necessarily thinning which makes market manipulation easier, not more difficult (as the recent volatility clearly shows). I hope this helps somehow