Who is still delusional enough to think miners want to scale?

[cellard]

If you still believe that miners want to willingly lower their fees in order to scale the network you are out of your mind.

They know there will always be problems. The only way out is to force them via UASF. This may trigger an activation by the current BIP, simply activate it by signaling for segwit.

If not, UASF will be it. Take it or leave it, no other way out.

[Scoremaster]

Not only do miners not want to scale, they probably want smaller blocks.

Mining empty blocks fast is great profit for them. They want higher fees too. It all combines to benefit them

[cellard]

Yeah miners benefit more from smaller blocks, so which would you prefer if you were a miner?

If I was a miner, I would think long term and realize that I would end up raking bigger fees once bitcoin goes mainstream thanks to lightning network allowing for trillions of transactions daily, but miners (specially chinese) just want short term gains, so we are stuck with what we have as long as people are too much of a pussy to UASF and FORCE the miners to follow us, not the other way around.

[worldmobilecoin]

Fair enough to cover their running cost. 

[Qartada]

Yeah miners benefit more from smaller blocks, so which would you prefer if you were a miner?

If I was a miner, I would think long term and realize that I would end up raking bigger fees once bitcoin goes mainstream thanks to lightning network allowing for trillions of transactions daily

LN would not result in significantly higher fees being given to miners.  Due to the lack of demand for onchain transactions there would be, paired with the fact that the value of the block reward would be very high by that point, I can't see it as them "thinking long term".

Their thoughts are like, "I will support this preferred scaling solution because it might result in the price going up and me getting temporarily higher profits", or "I will support this preferred scaling solution because it might help Bitcoin to retain its market dominance".

At this point, it's more like desperation to just clamour to finally do something, rather than thinking about the fees much.  Fees are useless if they don't actually end up receiving them.

[franky1]

pools dont care about fee's
research empty blocks

they care more about just getting their block accepted.. fee or no fee if the block is not accepted they cant spend anything.. not the fee not the reward.

pools primarily care about the block reward.

[michkima]

You have a point, but I don't think fees are the primary purpose right now as block rewards are still much better than the fees and the fees usually just goes to the pools. Though probably if they keep this up, when we have had enough halvings then the rewards will be lower then the fees then they will surely forget about scaling.

[amacar2]

Yeah miners benefit more from smaller blocks, so which would you prefer if you were a miner?

Definitely I will choose smaller blocks, why miners should care about network being clogged by unconfirmed transactions. They can prioritize their own TX to get rid of delay.

But they should also look at long term effect that can make on bitcoin price. ETH is already finding its way up due to all this scaling debate we have in bitcoin.

[Taki]

I amnot a miner to reply on the question about what miners really want. They got benefit from small blocks, so why would they wish for scale?

[Emoclaw]

Yeah miners benefit more from smaller blocks, so which would you prefer if you were a miner?

If I was a miner, I would think long term and realize that I would end up raking bigger fees once bitcoin goes mainstream thanks to lightning network allowing for trillions of transactions daily, but miners (specially chinese) just want short term gains, so we are stuck with what we have as long as people are too much of a pussy to UASF and FORCE the miners to follow us, not the other way around.

Miners won't benefit AT ALL if the lightning network is activated, neither short nor long term.
If the majority of transactions (and especially small ones) go through the lightning network, a substantially smaller amount of transactions will be broadcast to the blockchain.
Which means miners will get significantly less fees.

[jonald_fyookball]

OP, partially agree:  Some miners think short term and that's why they aren't signaling for a scaling solution.

Long term, scaling is the only way or else bitcoin becomes uncompetitive.

[maku]

Majority of miners are greedy bastards, it would be better if they give up mining if they rather keep scaling in forever locked state.
Bitcoin is not some kind of temporary altocin , you can just cut out BTC it and switch over to another short lived pump and dump altcoin.
Miners are not idiots though, they know that current congestion of the network is nothing to trifle with, soon mempool would be totally overload.
If that will happen - mass panic will ensue. Price of BTC will crash->mining profits will be lowered.

[25hashcoin]

You're delusional to believe Core wants to scale. If we don't have consensus soon miners will fork us into big blocks finally. You little Core fanboys and Uasf cheerleaders can enjoy your 1mb forever Blockscheme banker segshit settlement shit token.

[mindrust]

If you still believe that miners want to willingly lower their fees in order to scale the network you are out of your mind.

They know there will always be problems. The only way out is to force them via UASF. This may trigger an activation by the current BIP, simply activate it by signaling for segwit.

If not, UASF will be it. Take it or leave it, no other way out.

Jihan already declared his position about the fees. He don't want low fees.

Jihan Wu: SegWit Fees are too Damn Low!
https://twitter.com/JihanWu/status/868896110760181760

Neither Roger Ver, nor Jihan want low fees. They are coming with BU as a solution but it is nothing close to be one. That Bitcoin Unlimited crap was a distraction since the day it was born. BU is too absurd to become real (it is a troll proposal) and if somehow they convince the majority into BU, Jihan BU and Roger Ver will name themselves as the founder/CEO of bitcoin Corp. Ver already sees himself as an angel btw. What a freak lol.

We need to either convince Jihan into segwit (not possible at this moment) or get rid of him.

This may cause a huge loss in bitcoin's price but sooner or later we'll come to that critical moment: "Either kill or get killed."

We'll have to get rid of Jihan (with UASF) and if UASF don't succeed, sadly (not for me) we'll have to get rid of all ASICs. There simply isn't any other solution to the current situation.

[franky1]

You have a point, but I don't think fees are the primary purpose right now as block rewards are still much better than the fees and the fees usually just goes to the pools. Though probably if they keep this up, when we have had enough halvings then the rewards will be lower then the fees then they will surely forget about scaling.

it doesnt matter when the flip of when fee becomes income and reward becomes a bonus happens.. if their block is not accepted by the community to build ontop of the longest chain they cant spend a thing they earn reward or fee.

its still a matter of pools sticking to the community consensus to ensure thier blocks get accepted into the longest chain so they can spend anything.
whether its
  income:bonus
reward  :  fee - now
fee       :  reward - many decades time

with that said pools DO want to scale to allow more transactions in, because getting 10cents each from 200,000 tx is a healthier currency that has longevity and utility... compared to hoping for $10 each from 2000 tx, which is not a currency that has longevity


but  its all about the competition/race to get an acceptable block which muddies the non-mining nodes opinion of what pools do or do not want.
because the non-mining users dont understand the number of game theories at play.

[hatshepsut93]

If you still believe that miners want to willingly lower their fees in order to scale the network you are out of your mind.

They know there will always be problems. The only way out is to force them via UASF. This may trigger an activation by the current BIP, simply activate it by signaling for segwit.

If not, UASF will be it. Take it or leave it, no other way out.

If I were a miner, I would support whatever improves Bitcoin's network in general, because this would increase the price of Bitcoin and even if I would have smaller fee rewards, the USD profits would increase. On the contrary, if Bitcoin's network will be left at current state with giant fees and slow speed, it's only a matter of time when the price will crash and some other altcoin will take its place (if it will scale better). So, miners should stop shooting themselves in the knee for a short term profit.

[mindrust]

If you still believe that miners want to willingly lower their fees in order to scale the network you are out of your mind.

They know there will always be problems. The only way out is to force them via UASF. This may trigger an activation by the current BIP, simply activate it by signaling for segwit.

If not, UASF will be it. Take it or leave it, no other way out.

If I were a miner, I would support whatever improves Bitcoin's network in general, because this would increase the price of Bitcoin and even if I would have smaller fee rewards, the USD profits would increase. On the contrary, if Bitcoin's network will be left at current state with giant fees and slow speed, it's only a matter of time when the price will crash and some other altcoin will take its place (if it will scale better). So, miners should stop shooting themselves in the knee for a short term profit.

I wish everyone were that way. Bitmain miners don't care about bitcoin at all. All they care about is the fat fees they milk from us. They don't even care if bitcoin survives or dies i'm afraid. They'll just point their miners to the next big thing after bitcoin. They will spread like a cancer till there is no crypto left.

[swogerino]

Miners make more profit from small blocks resulting in higher fees but I think miners should be ready for any good change to bitcoin otherwise I can't call them miners.  Most big miners are in China and this is not a good thing, all they care there is their fat profit without caring too much about  the end users and bitcoin itself.

[Angel777]

Bitcoin has many opportunities can give.It gives me work,excercise my kwoledge in inglish in english and develop our character to be rich.To  change our life.

[Hydrogen]

Those wanting to scale crypto remind me of people who expect to have great internet multiplayer gaming using a WIFI router.

Encryption & cryptographic functions always slow things down.

Whether its a WIFI router or bitcoin, it could be guaranteed that it will always be somewhat slow.