[LIF] Winding Tree - Decentralized Travel Distribution || LUFTHANSA, SWISS

[myllz88]

Hi!
I joined the mailing list - will you send details about pre-sale directly to subscribers tomorrow?
Great project btw. I work in the travel industry and see a huge potential.

Any pre-sale?

We will announce presale details next Thursday. If you're interested you can shoot an email to presale@windingtree.com so we can keep you in the loop. Official details will be posted on our website and our telegram channel. So be aware of Spammers - we will NEVER DM anyone directly with hidden presales and large bonuses.

[WindingTree]

Hi!
I joined the mailing list - will you send details about pre-sale directly to subscribers tomorrow?
Great project btw. I work in the travel industry and see a huge potential.

Any pre-sale?

We will announce presale details next Thursday. If you're interested you can shoot an email to presale@windingtree.com so we can keep you in the loop. Official details will be posted on our website and our telegram channel. So be aware of Spammers - we will NEVER DM anyone directly with hidden presales and large bonuses.

Hey - yes if you're subscribed you'll receive all info about the pre-sale. Which you should have already received by now

[WindingTree]

Here's an updated list of events we'll be at, hit us up if you're attending and come meet us

Barcelona - 3-5 October



Moscow - 5th October



Prague - 6-8 October




Orlando - 15-18 October



Las Vegas - 24-26 October



Aruba - 26-28 October

[WindingTree]

Hey guys we're very happy to be able to announce our first official partner! Lufthansa Group!
You can read more here: https://www.coindesk.com/ready-takeoff-lufthansa-strikes-deal-blockchain-ico-startup/

Also our presale is still open you can participate at https://windingtree.com/presale.html

[digitalgame4life]

Hi, how many tokens per Ethereum, what is the total coin circulation? Token sale has a rather difficult formula and no obvious explanation of tokens per Eth.

[WindingTree]

Hi, how many tokens per Ethereum, what is the total coin circulation? Token sale has a rather difficult formula and no obvious explanation of tokens per Eth.

We use a market validation mechanism. This means that although the raise it uncapped, we will only receive a total of $10 million after the TGE. The rest will go into a smart contract which refunds ether to Lif token holders if they wish to do so. That way the market can decide whether or not we ever receive what's in the smart contract!

Presale 1 ETH = 11 Lif
Week 1 TGE 1 ETH = 10 Lif
Week 2 TGE 1 ETH = 9 Lif


Let us know if you have any further questions! Also you can join our social channels here:
RocketChat: https://windingtree.rocket.chat/
Telegram Chat: https://t.me/windingtree
Telegram Announcement Channel: https://t.me/windingtreeann
Twitter: https://twitter.com/windingtree

[ridertiger]

Joined my first ICO, but the price seems a little expensive. This pricing puts the tokens around 20 dollars per token, which seems hard to accomplish from the getgo.
Do you have a certain number of maximum tokens such as 21 millions etc?

[WindingTree]

Joined my first ICO, but the price seems a little expensive. This pricing puts the tokens around 20 dollars per token, which seems hard to accomplish from the getgo.
Do you have a certain number of maximum tokens such as 21 millions etc?

Token exchange rates are set arbitrarily. We could have done 1ETH = 110 Lif. It literally makes no difference, other than maybe some psychological effect. You can read about our TGE event here: https://blog.windingtree.com/l%C3%ADf-token-generation-event-f9edb43db739.

The team will only receive a maximum of $10 million after the TGE but we operate on a Market Validation Mechanism (MVM) about which you can read about in the blog post above.

[gpuk]

Hi Winding Tree team

I've read through the whitepaper (like the MVM approach btw!) and have a few questions:

1. Given the fact distribution in the travel industry is controlled by a handful of huge, entrenched players; how do you envisage bootstrapping your marketplace? As I see it, you have a classic chicken and egg problem (suppliers will only invest in getting their inventory into Winding Tree if there are consumers; consumer will only use Winding Tree backed B2C agents/sites if there is a comparable level of inventory choice available through it compared to existing channels). To complicate it further, due to the existing power dynamics in the industry, small and medium sized players will find it very hard to embrace WT (technically, and relationship/business contract wise) without risking being blacklisted by the industry gatekeepers.

2. For WT to work, travel suppliers (hotels, airlines) are going to need to make large investments in their IT platforms and back-office processes to integrate with WT. Travel buyers (agents, B2C sites etc.) are also going to need to invest in working with your blockchain (versus consuming a simple REST/SOAP API from aggregators/GDS providers as they do today). That's a lot of upfront dev (and legal/compliance) work and the travel industry is not known for its IT competency. In fact, most suppliers, aggregators and travel retailers today actually rely on tech provided from the very companies Winding Tree is trying to disrupt (Amadeus, Sabre, Travelport, Navitaire etc.). Where are all these participants going to find the talent and vision they need to build in-house integrations to the WT blockchain? I feel like all they will end up doing is moving the cost of distribution to the cost of integration (i.e. having to pay high priced consultants to create back-end software for them).

3. Your whitepaper mentions the need for massive improvements in the volume of transactions that can be processed (either on or off chain) in order to support the scale needed by the travel industry. With things like LN and plasma still years away, how comfortable are you that the necessary t/x volume support will come to WT in good enough time so as not to harm your scale up?

4. It seems to me that the main problem WT proposes to solve (removing the concentration of distribution from the hands of a few big gatekeepers) could be solved with industry adoption of standardized and open intercom protocols. The airline industry is already seeing this with NDC, for example. This way, the marketplace gets the same benefit of WT (i.e. lower barrier to entry for new startups; reduced overhead, complexity and waste through open standardization; easier/more affordable for less technically savvy suppliers to participate, reduced or eliminated need to consume inventory through platform intermediaries etc.) but without the need to completely re-invent distribution from the ground up and move everything in to a blockchain. Or put another way, why do you so hastily dismiss NDC as being a viable blueprint for the rest of the travel sector to learn from?

Apologies if these are hard questions but I am deeply interested in anything that removes the bondage of distribution as it is today from travel suppliers and yields a cheaper, faster, better experience for consumers. I'm just not 100% sold on the idea that simply moving distribution to a blockchain is the most expedient or realistic approach to ushering in such a revolution.

[WindingTree]

Hi Winding Tree team

I've read through the whitepaper (like the MVM approach btw!) and have a few questions:

1. Given the fact distribution in the travel industry is controlled by only a handful of huge, entrenched players; how do you envisage bootstrapping your marketplace? As I see it, you have a classic chicken and egg problem (suppliers will only invest in getting their inventory into Winding Tree if there are consumers; consumer will only use Winding Tree if there is a comparable level of inventory choice available through it compared to existing channels). To complicate it further, due to the existing power dynamics in the industry, small and medium sized suppliers will find it very hard to embrace WT (technically, and relationship/business contract wise) without risking getting cut out by their existing distributors.

2. For WT to work, travel suppliers (hotels, airlines) are going to need to make large investments in their IT platforms and back-office processes to integrate with WT. Travel buyers (agents, B2C sites etc.) are also going to need to invest in working with your blockchain (versus consuming a simple REST/SOAP API from aggregators/GDS providers as they do today). That's a lot of upfront dev work and the travel industry is not known for its IT competency. In fact, most suppliers, aggregators and travel retailers today actually use tech provided from the very companies Winding Tree is trying to disrupt (Amadeus, Sabre, Travelport etc.). Where are all these participants going to find the talent and vision they need to build in-house integrations to the WT blockchain? I feel like all they will end up doing is moving the cost of distribution to the cost of integration (i.e. having to pay high priced consultants to create back-end software for them).

3. Your whitepaper mentions the need for massive improvements in the volume of transactions that can be processed (either on or off chain) in order to support the scale needed by the travel industry. With things like LN and plasma still years away, how comfortable are you that the necessary t/x volume support will come to WT in good enough time so as not to harm your scale up?

4. It seems to me that the main problem WT proposes to solve (removing the concentration of distribution from the hands of a few big gatekeepers) could be solved with industry adoption of standardized and open intercom protocols. The airline industry is already seeing this with NDC, for example. This way, the marketplace gets the same benefit of WT (i.e. lower barrier to entry for new startups; reduced overhead, complexity and waste through open standardization; easier/more affordable for less technically savvy suppliers to participate etc.) but without the need to completely re-invent distribution from the ground up and everything in to a blockchain. Or put another way, why do you so hastily dismiss NDC as being a viable blueprint for the rest of the travel sector to learn from?

Hey there.

great questions.


1) First of all we're not building a marketplace ourselves, in fact we'll just offer inventory which comes directly from the supplier to anyone. So people can book directly through the blockchain or  marketplaces can be built around winding tree which source inventory from the platform. We have been working on the on-boarding of partners - and Lufthansa was the first partnership we've been able to announce officially. There's a lot of interest on the supplier side - it's more the legal hassle that slows us down.

2) Correct - so with the suppliers we've talked to the aim is to initially push inventory to the blockchain live and in the long-term integrate winding tree at the source i.e. the Property Management System. That's another reason why we've been pushing to working with suppliers as we can work together with them to find ideal solutions for making integration as seamless as possible. Overall cost of integration is a fixed cost, distribution is a variable cost which occurs at every booking. If you consider the commission rates suppliers are paying it should be a very profitable investment.

3) For travel bookings you don't necessarily need instant verification. In fact it's very likely you'll be booking something that's a couple of days out or even months. But in the general scheme of things we are looking closely at all scaling projects and already talking to some to see what the best path for us could be on scalability.

4) NDC has been tried, everyone just integrated their own version of NDC. I think we need a radical change in distribution, and to enable everyone to get access to inventory and resell it blockchain is the ideal solution. We also believe in the benefits of decentralized networks.

[gpuk]

Thanks for the quick reply.

1) First of all we're not building a marketplace ourselves, in fact we'll just offer inventory which comes directly from the supplier to anyone. So people can book directly through the blockchain or  marketplaces can be built around winding tree which source inventory from the platform. We have been working on the on-boarding of partners - and Lufthansa was the first partnership we've been able to announce officially. There's a lot of interest on the supplier side - it's more the legal hassle that slows us down.

Point taken, although suppliers are not going to be incentivized to push their inventory in to a black hole. You will have to stimulate some adoption on the other side too. Lufthansa is a great partner but I'd argue they're also one of the easier ones to launch with. They have the budget and in house tech knowledge to experiment with this and they're at the vanguard of trying to push back on the level of control incumbent distributors have over the industry.

2) Correct - so with the suppliers we've talked to the aim is to initially push inventory to the blockchain live and in the long-term integrate winding tree at the source i.e. the Property Management System. That's another reason why we've been pushing to working with suppliers as we can work together with them to find ideal solutions for making integration as seamless as possible. Overall cost of integration is a fixed cost, distribution is a variable cost which occurs at every booking. If you consider the commission rates suppliers are paying it should be a very profitable investment.

Agree with this although the elephant in the room is that most suppliers don't have the cash flow (or bank credit) to invest in up front capex/fixed costs. It's much easier for them to bleed some profit via commissions as sales are generated rather than swallow a big integration cost (and the associated time and disruption that implies) before seeing returns.

3) For travel bookings you don't necessarily need instant verification. In fact it's very likely you'll be booking something that's a couple of days out or even months. But in the general scheme of things we are looking closely at all scaling projects and already talking to some to see what the best path for us could be on scalability.

There will be an almost immediate need to guarantee double bookings don't take place though (beyond whatever threshold an airline or hotel usually tries to aim for)? Also, things like booking alterations, cancellations, refunds etc.?

4) NDC has been tried, everyone just integrated their own version of NDC. I think we need a radical change in distribution, and to enable everyone to get access to inventory and resell it blockchain is the ideal solution. We also believe in the benefits of decentralized networks.

There are small implementation quirks and differences but these are not huge (nothing an overlay library doesn't easily solve) and are projected to reduce over time as the industry agrees on best practices.

[gpuk]

BTW, I apologize if I'm coming off as a snarky armchair skeptic. It's just that what you are trying to solve is a very hard problem: technically, economically and politically. I've spent a lot of time myself thinking about the underlying incentives that have caused today's mess in distribution and how that could be fixed.

I haven't got all the answers but I'm convinced it starts with making technology and intercom easier and cheaper for travel suppliers and retailers. For me this means open, easily implemented standards that have wide industry adoption (and maybe even replacing commercial PSS/CRS systems with better open source alternatives). I'm not sure increasing complexity with a blockchain solution necessarily changes much (other than unnecessarily increasing friction).

In the case of Lufthansa, for example, new entrants and startups can already get direct API access to their inventory (https://developer.lufthansa.com) without needing to learn about tokens and blockchains. Surely that's a good thing and the industry (airlines and hotels) needs more of it?

[WindingTree]

BTW, I apologize if I'm coming off as a snarky armchair skeptic. It's just that what you are trying to solve is a very hard problem: technically, economically and politically. I've spent a lot of time myself thinking about the underlying incentives that have caused today's mess in distribution and how that could be fixed.

I haven't got all the answers but I'm convinced it starts with making technology and intercom easier and cheaper for travel suppliers and retailers. For me this means open, easily implemented standards that have wide industry adoption (and maybe even replacing commercial PSS/CRS systems with better open source alternatives). I'm not sure increasing complexity with a blockchain solution necessarily changes much (other than unnecessarily increasing friction).

In the case of Lufthansa, for example, new entrants and startups can already get direct API access to their inventory (https://developer.lufthansa.com) without needing to learn about tokens and blockchains. Surely that's a good thing and the industry (airlines and hotels) needs more of it?

Not at all! Just running on a busy schedule

We already have companies lined up who want to source inventory from winding tree and resell it! Also by making it easy for developers to integrate with the platform anyone could resell a hotel room i.e. in a hotel review etc. I think ways of monetizing distribution and distribution reach will change when the inventory is just there - easy to integrate and resell. But coming back to your point we will announce some projects building on the reseller site before our TGE!

I don't think the setup cost is that high. Initially we can be used as a seperate channel and if WT saves the suppliers enough and the math works then it'll make sense for them to integrate WT right into their CRS.

About your comment on overbooking - we don't have a large order book for hotel reservations. It's a spontaneous purchase and today's system run way behind anyway. Also the broadcasting of the transaction can already temporarily remove the room or seat from the suppliers inventory - without having to wait for x confirmations. If it doesn't confirm then it can be released again after 2-3 blocks 50 seconds or so currently on Eth.

We do believe a standard is necessary - that's why we will be working closely with suppliers to get a uniform standard.

[haxllega]

If you offer bounty campaign I want to reserve German translation

[gpuk]

We already have companies lined up who want to source inventory from winding tree and resell it! Also by making it easy for developers to integrate with the platform anyone could resell a hotel room i.e. in a hotel review etc. I think ways of monetizing distribution and distribution reach will change when the inventory is just there - easy to integrate and resell. But coming back to your point we will announce some projects building on the reseller site before our TGE!

This sounds great. I've been looking at WT mainly from an airline perspective since that's where I'm a bit more familiar. I think for hotels you'll have a much easier time getting suppliers and resellers to use the platform. The hotel business is bigger, a lot more fragmented, generally subject to higher rent seeking margins from gatekeepers, enjoys less regulation (in terms of who the end contract is with, delay compensation etc.) and is just a better "place" for this sort of experiment to find its feet (I think).

I don't think the setup cost is that high. Initially we can be used as a separate channel and if WT saves the suppliers enough and the math works then it'll make sense for them to integrate WT right into their CRS.

Sounds like a very sensible approach. Doubly so if you can make it super easy for CRS developers to add WT as a channel to push to (through good docs, standardization and maybe paid for training run by the WT foundation). Another reason why I think WT will work better for hotels than airlines is that hotels have more choices when it comes to CRS (most airlines are exclusively using systems provided by the companies WT is designed to disrupt - outside of doing it ad-hoc and then manually trying to reconcile bookings with their existing system - it isn't easy for most of them to just 'add' another channel to push to).

About your comment on overbooking - we don't have a large order book for hotel reservations. It's a spontaneous purchase and today's system run way behind anyway. Also the broadcasting of the transaction can already temporarily remove the room or seat from the suppliers inventory - without having to wait for x confirmations. If it doesn't confirm then it can be released again after 2-3 blocks 50 seconds or so currently on Eth.

Temporarily removing inventory and releasing back if the t/x isn't confirmed makes sense (didn't think of this!) - definitely removes some immediate scaling pressure.

So, really appreciate you taking the time to thoughtfully reply  I think you're going to have a hard time with airlines (especially tier 2 ones) but for hotels WT looks interesting (and anything that can help change how distribution is done in the travel industry is definitely worth trying!).

Good luck.


Edit:
You guys should maybe consider talking to Triptease and seeing if they'd be an early adopter/brand champion (seems WT should be aligned with their mission).

[WindingTree]

We already have companies lined up who want to source inventory from winding tree and resell it! Also by making it easy for developers to integrate with the platform anyone could resell a hotel room i.e. in a hotel review etc. I think ways of monetizing distribution and distribution reach will change when the inventory is just there - easy to integrate and resell. But coming back to your point we will announce some projects building on the reseller site before our TGE!

This sounds great. I've been looking at WT mainly from an airline perspective since that's where I'm a bit more familiar. I think for hotels you'll have a much easier time getting suppliers and resellers to use the platform. The hotel business is bigger, a lot more fragmented, generally subject to higher rent seeking margins from gatekeepers, enjoys less regulation (in terms of who the end contract is with, delay compensation etc.) and is just a better "place" for this sort of experiment to find its feet (I think).

I don't think the setup cost is that high. Initially we can be used as a separate channel and if WT saves the suppliers enough and the math works then it'll make sense for them to integrate WT right into their CRS.

Sounds like a very sensible approach. Doubly so if you can make it super easy for CRS developers to add WT as a channel to push to (through good docs, standardization and maybe paid for training run by the WT foundation). Another reason why I think WT will work better for hotels than airlines is that hotels have more choices when it comes to CRS (most airlines are exclusively using systems provided by the companies WT is designed to disrupt - outside of doing it ad-hoc and then manually trying to reconcile bookings with their existing system - it isn't easy for most of them to just 'add' another channel to push to).

About your comment on overbooking - we don't have a large order book for hotel reservations. It's a spontaneous purchase and today's system run way behind anyway. Also the broadcasting of the transaction can already temporarily remove the room or seat from the suppliers inventory - without having to wait for x confirmations. If it doesn't confirm then it can be released again after 2-3 blocks 50 seconds or so currently on Eth.

Temporarily removing inventory and releasing back if the t/x isn't confirmed makes sense (didn't think of this!) - definitely removes some immediate scaling pressure.

So, really appreciate you taking the time to thoughtfully reply  I think you're going to have a hard time with airlines (especially tier 2 ones) but for hotels WT looks interesting (and anything that can help change how distribution is done in the travel industry is definitely worth trying!).

Good luck.


Edit:
You guys should maybe consider talking to Triptease and seeing if they'd be an early adopter/brand champion (seems WT should be aligned with their mission).

Appreciate you taking your time and asking us question! Make sure to join our social channels too - we love feedback from the community.

[Nalienn]

Are there any official statements by Lufthansa & co regarding this?

[WindingTree]

Are there any official statements by Lufthansa & co regarding this?

Yes, sure: https://newsroom.lufthansagroup.com/English/Press-Releases/lufthansa-group-partners-up-with-winding-tree-to-bring-blockchain-technology-to-the-travel-industry/s/16fc8ce5-4656-41ee-a6b2-026441ba19b6

[Nalienn]

Are there any official statements by Lufthansa & co regarding this?

Yes, sure: https://newsroom.lufthansagroup.com/English/Press-Releases/lufthansa-group-partners-up-with-winding-tree-to-bring-blockchain-technology-to-the-travel-industry/s/16fc8ce5-4656-41ee-a6b2-026441ba19b6

Thank you very much for the quick response!

Will be watching this one very closely and digging through the Whitepaper first thing tomorrow morning.

[WindingTree]

Are there any official statements by Lufthansa & co regarding this?

Yes, sure: https://newsroom.lufthansagroup.com/English/Press-Releases/lufthansa-group-partners-up-with-winding-tree-to-bring-blockchain-technology-to-the-travel-industry/s/16fc8ce5-4656-41ee-a6b2-026441ba19b6

Thank you very much for the quick response!

Will be watching this one very closely and digging through the Whitepaper first thing tomorrow morning.

We're here if you have questions! Enjoy reading the whitepaper