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Author Topic: Alt-coin price question + some food for thoughts... (from a newbie)  (Read 391 times)
ART1985
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June 08, 2017, 08:26:10 PM
 #1

Hey Guys,

After months of lurking i decided to make my first post and ask for your help/opinion. I have searched in advance but can’t get a clear answer to my question/point of view which can be found below.


Disclaimer

English is not my native language and this can be the problem why i don’t find any answers (garbage in = garbage out). If so, please accept my apologies for wasting your time!


How it all started…

How is the price of an alt coin calculated in (for example) Bittrex? In BTC or in Dollar?

I buy alt coins in BTC from Bittrex, but is this BTC price calculated from dollars to BTC by Bittrex (combined with demand/ask), or are the alt coins standard defined / calculated in BTC? Why this question: as far as i can see, the price of a certain alt coin only changes because of ask/demand. I don’t see any change in the SAT price of an alt-coin when the BTC dollar price goes up or goes down (well, i haven’t noticed this so far as I can see this difference).

So if a certain alt coin (coin ‘X’) is worth 1000SAT and the ask/demand is steady (no fluctuation), what would happen to the dollar price of this coin ‘X' when the BTC dollar price will double from [X] dollars to [Y] dollars? Will the value of coin ‘X’ still be 1000SAT at price [Y] or will the price of this certain coin drop from 1000SAT to 500SAT because BTC-Dollar price doubled?


What if?

If the above assumption is correct and the value is determined in BTC and the value of BTC (in Dollars) will drop, it will automatically means that the alt coin price will also drop in dollars. Of course, people will jump from BTC to other alt coins to maintain profit what can make an alt-coin rise. Do have have in this case the same situation within the coin market as within the financial market; Bitcoin has the same position as the Dollar; if the Dollar will ‘collapse’, all the other exchanges will also collapse because of the dollar-dependence/relation they have.


Bitcoin will not collapse…

This is what i don’t get. A lot people i spoke tell me BTC is too big to fail. With the knowledge i have gathered the past years, i do think the opposite. Some people/families/groups are ‘maintaining’ the powers (that be) for hundreds, even thousands, of years and do have the power (money) to influence almost every item which can be influenced in this world.

The central banking structure is a project which last more then 100 years and they have taken very precise steps in the past centuries in order to come to the point where we are now; almost every country has received democracy, uhh, i mean, central banks. I can’t believe that people/families/groups working on this high level to control the pillar they belong to, are not aware of BTC in the early days. Could it be possible that ‘they’ started to invest/take part in this journey a couple of years ago or even, worst case, in the beginning of BTC?

Looking at the past months, the rise of the crypto currencies has started. From a market cap of 25 billion in march to a 100 billion market cap as we speak. This rise can only be the beginning, especially when N-Korea will drop a bom or anything else will happen in this chaotic world. Would it be possible for a small group of people to influence/collapse this total market?


Billion dollar BTC market…

As a person who’s coming from a family earning a little-above-average income, I find the amount of money circulating within the crypto currency market is tremendous. But for some people this is peanuts. The well-known families/groups have fortunes which is a lot more than the total crypto currency market cap at this moment.

Depending on the time they joined BTC, for example around the time that BTC was 100 Dollar (jul-aug ’13), the total market cap was around the 1.5 billion Dollars. Taking a large part within this market cap would be no problem for ’them’. Looking at the fortune of these families/groups, what could be the total share they could possibly have in BTC, looking at their fortune?


One collapse to destroy them all (financially)….

If the prices of the alt coins are based on BTC then the power these families/groups could possibly have is tremendous. When the price of BTC will collapse it will be the end of the alt-coins. Can this be a reason that Ripple has it own exchange through Gatehub? Were the coin can be traded for USD, EUR and even XUA. This way the effect a possible collapse will have on Ripple is way less then it will have on all the other BTC. I do get the feeling that Ripple has a lot of support within the financial world.


Disclaimer 2.0

The above conspiracy is based on an answer which i don’t have, so it’s only food for thoughts which i wanted to share in order to solve my quest. I don’t know if the above scenario could be possible, but my feelings are telling me that some people will do anything to maintain power/wealth without the ’99%’ earning from it. Within the crypto currency this is different and a normal guy like me can earn millions, which should only be preserved for the chosen few….


Again my apologies if this subject is already explained/discussed on BTCTalk!

Cheers!
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pumpmydump
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June 09, 2017, 01:42:21 AM
 #2

Hi there,

Quote
Hey Guys,

After months of lurking i decided to make my first post and ask for your help/opinion. I have searched in advance but can’t get a clear answer to my question/point of view which can be found below.


Disclaimer

English is not my native language and this can be the problem why i don’t find any answers (garbage in = garbage out). If so, please accept my apologies for wasting your time!


How it all started…

How is the price of an alt coin calculated in (for example) Bittrex? In BTC or in Dollar?

I buy alt coins in BTC from Bittrex, but is this BTC price calculated from dollars to BTC by Bittrex (combined with demand/ask), or are the alt coins standard defined / calculated in BTC? Why this question: as far as i can see, the price of a certain alt coin only changes because of ask/demand. I don’t see any change in the SAT price of an alt-coin when the BTC dollar price goes up or goes down (well, i haven’t noticed this so far as I can see this difference).

So if a certain alt coin (coin ‘X’) is worth 1000SAT and the ask/demand is steady (no fluctuation), what would happen to the dollar price of this coin ‘X' when the BTC dollar price will double from [X] dollars to [Y] dollars? Will the value of coin ‘X’ still be 1000SAT at price [Y] or will the price of this certain coin drop from 1000SAT to 500SAT because BTC-Dollar price doubled?

The price of an altcoin is determined by how much people are willing to buy/sell it for. If no one wants to buy it for more than 1000sat or sell it for less than 1000sat then the price remains at 1000sat. Likewise the price of a BTC in dollars is determined by how much people are willing to pay in dollars for one BTC. If the BTC/dollar price goes up and the price of an altcoin remains at 1000sat then the price of that altcoin goes up in dollars. It will only go down to less than 1000sat if people start selling that altcoin for BTC.

You may notice that when the price of BTC/dollar goes up quickly most of the altcoins go down. This is not because exchanges like Bittrex apply a correction against the dollar, but simply because people are selling their altcoins for BTC. They may want to cash out their BTC or they may sell because they believe other people are going to sell.

Quote
What if?

If the above assumption is correct and the value is determined in BTC and the value of BTC (in Dollars) will drop, it will automatically means that the alt coin price will also drop in dollars. Of course, people will jump from BTC to other alt coins to maintain profit what can make an alt-coin rise. Do have have in this case the same situation within the coin market as within the financial market; Bitcoin has the same position as the Dollar; if the Dollar will ‘collapse’, all the other exchanges will also collapse because of the dollar-dependence/relation they have.

If the bitcoin drops too fast then there are not enough people buying altcoins to compensate for the drop of the altcoins in dollars, and then more and more people sell their altcoins seeing that their investment is shrinking causing a fast drop of the altcoins as well. However bitcoin has less and less dominance relative to the whole of crypto space with more and more money flowing into altcoins, so if that trend continues as time goes by a possible collapse of bitcoin will have less and less impact on other altcoins. And more and more altcoins are being bought directly in fiat (dollars, euros, yuan...) rather than in bitcoin, as time goes by the whole crypto edifice depends less and less on bitcoin. The impact of a bitcoin collapse on altcoins would depend on the reason behind the collapse as well, but even if the bitcoin collapses it seems that there is no stopping the growth of decentralization in all aspects of our societies, and even if bitcoin dies, decentralization allowed through the blockchain or similar technology will live on, and so will some of the altcoins.


I believe your underlying question is, should you invest in cryptocurrencies if some entity may have the ability to crash bitcoin? And my answer would be, if that were to happen, the altcoins would crash temporarily, but the ones with important use cases for our lives would rise back up, because what they will allow is too important not to happen and people around the world will make it happen. Some entities will try to stop decentralization, but in the end freedom will prevail, it always will, because the will for freedom is too strong to be controlled. In my opinion there is no stopping decentralization now, only a global war could temporarily I suppose.

Cheers
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June 09, 2017, 02:47:49 AM
 #3

How is the price of an alt coin calculated in (for example) Bittrex? In BTC or in Dollar?

I buy alt coins in BTC from Bittrex, but is this BTC price calculated from dollars to BTC by Bittrex (combined with demand/ask), or are the alt coins standard defined / calculated in BTC? Why this question: as far as i can see, the price of a certain alt coin only changes because of ask/demand. I don’t see any change in the SAT price of an alt-coin when the BTC dollar price goes up or goes down (well, i haven’t noticed this so far as I can see this difference).

So if a certain alt coin (coin ‘X’) is worth 1000SAT and the ask/demand is steady (no fluctuation), what would happen to the dollar price of this coin ‘X' when the BTC dollar price will double from [X] dollars to [Y] dollars? Will the value of coin ‘X’ still be 1000SAT at price [Y] or will the price of this certain coin drop from 1000SAT to 500SAT because BTC-Dollar price doubled?
there are two types of altcoins, those that are only being traded with bitcoin (and possibly with some other altcoins) and those that on top of that they are also being traded with fiat.
the first ones are only worth in BTC
the second ones both BTC and FIAT (like USD for example).

the rise and falls of all these altcoins are usually independent from bitcoin, they are pumped and dumped most of the time so they don't care if bitcoin is rising falling or even dead Cheesy

sometimes however bitcoin price affects them. for example when bitcoin is stable many traders move to altcoin market to make the profit they can't make in bitcoin because if its stability and when it starts rising again they pull out their money back to bitcoin and that causes ALTs to crash.

there are a lot of other scenarios that can happen too. mostly depends on which altcoin you are talking about.

Quote
...of BTC in the early days. Could it be possible that ‘they’ started to invest/take part in this journey a couple of years ago or even, worst case, in the beginning of BTC?
why do you even care? they may or may not have invested in it. why is it "worse case". many have invested in a lot of things, lets say Gold when it was cheaper, Apple shares when it was worth nothing, the list goes on, why should you care if someone else was earlier than you in investing in Apple and now has a lot more money?

Quote
the total market cap was around the 1.5 billion Dollars. Taking a large part within this market cap would be no problem for ’them’. Looking at the fortune of these families/groups, what could be the total share they could possibly have in BTC, looking at their fortune?
if market cap interests you then check how much bigger all the other market caps are compared to bitcoin then come back.
and again why do you assume someone has invested in bitcoin just to pull out suddenly and crash the market!!! that is not normal human behavior!

Quote
One collapse to destroy them all (financially)….
I think you are a bit confused about how manipulated altcoins with >90% of their supply controlled by a couple of people work compared to the well distributed and globally growing bitcoin.

ART1985
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June 09, 2017, 10:19:01 AM
 #4

Many thanks for the clear explanations!

For me it’s very clear now how the prices of alt coins are ‘determined’ for which i thank you both!

The underlying question is, what are the (negative) influences within the crypto currency market? A lot of people in my environment keep asking wether the crypto currency market could be a good investment and want me to help them taking their position. In order for me to answer such questions, i needed to know more about the ‘risks’ which could be there and how it fully works in order to give a good explanation and answer to their questions.

I also make a difference between coins/companies/blockchains who just run a blockchain, and coins/companies/blockchains which normally would go for an IPO and now choose to go for an ICO because the costs are much lower. I do think that a product or service behind a coin is very important for the long run/term.

Quote
if market cap interests you then check how much bigger all the other market caps are compared to bitcoin then come back.
and again why do you assume someone has invested in bitcoin just to pull out suddenly and crash the market!!! that is not normal human behavior!

We live in a world were wars are started within the blink of an eye just for the financial benefits. Were the financial market is one big bubble waiting to be popped. Were investment-companies made billions of Dollars at the stock market during 9/11 by selling their stocks moths/weeks before the tragedy and buying them back afterwards. Were somebody who should go to jail (Hillary, perjury) was running for president and mass manipulation is just a regular thing to do. Some people just want to see the world burn and are trying to do their best in doing so and do have the position (wealth) to fulfill this desire. Why should this be different within the crypto currency market?

Quote
....Some entities will try to stop decentralization, but in the end freedom will prevail, it always will, because the will for freedom is too strong to be controlled. In my opinion there is no stopping decentralization now, only a global war could temporarily I suppose.

Well, this is a constant battle which, according to some people, started with the Atlantis Legend. As far as i can see the pillar of 'suppression' is still here holding firm to their positions and although i really hope the pillar of 'enlightenment' will come one day, it will be a heavy-chaotic-period in order for this transition to be completed, 'they' won't go down that easily. Therefor i'm trying to oversee to possibilities which these 'suppression-based' people could have regarding the crypto currency market...

pumpmydump
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June 09, 2017, 03:26:19 PM
 #5

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Well, this is a constant battle which, according to some people, started with the Atlantis Legend. As far as i can see the pillar of 'suppression' is still here holding firm to their positions and although i really hope the pillar of 'enlightenment' will come one day, it will be a heavy-chaotic-period in order for this transition to be completed, 'they' won't go down that easily. Therefor i'm trying to oversee to possibilities which these 'suppression-based' people could have regarding the crypto currency market...

Sure there are conspiracies, groups of people conspiring for their own interest against the public interest, but I don't believe in the kind of conspiracy you seem to have in mind.

Right now I don't see a better investment than the crypto market if you do research and don't invest in stupid coins (although even those get a pump every now and then). It may be a risky investment if you plan on holding a coin for 10 years, but over the next few months and years some coins will do x10 and x20 and x30 and more, you just have to pick the right ones. The potential benefits far outweigh the potential risks as long as you do what it takes to keep your coins safe, just don't go all in on one coin, nor all in on crypto.
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