Coinlab are sneaky bastards, investors behind Bitcoinica

[genjix]

I've gotten a lot of hate from people who've blamed me for Bitcoinica, convinced I'm to blame. Maybe now you'll all understand. Here's some basic facts.

Coinlab were the investors behind Bitcoinica. Tihan Seale and Peter Vessenes founded Coinlab together. Tihan bought Bitcoinica and Coinlab was involved from the beginning. Patrick Murck filed the legal papers on behalf of Bitcoinica investors.

We were given fake shares in a fake company. The deal was to contract us to work on Bitcoinica. The site had been losing money for months and had huge security problems. A new company was formed to handle that agreement.

After the first compromise, despite huge problems in the setup and design of the website, they wanted to put it back up as fast as possible. I was against this strongly which is why I released the code. After an employee used this as an excuse to steal more funds (the evidence is definitive), they were upset more over the loss of the 'Intellectual Property'.

They scapegoated me. They wanted no liability and refused to help us complete the job for them. All the emails are public on this forum (I released them) as proof. Donald kept asking to speak to their superior but they refused.

I never had access to money or any servers. I was a programmer working on the hedging algorithm.

They are sneaky, and play dirty tactics. Tihan is a manipulative sociopath.

We had run Intersango, the biggest UK exchange for 2 years without any problems doing 2 million GBP turnover annually. The site has been closed down (due to UK bank problems) paying everyone back and we experienced no security flaws during its history. I had no reason to deliberately cause Bitcoinica users any harm, and if you actually go and study the evidence on the forums, you'll see I acted in all of your best interests.

When everyone ran off, a programmer was told he was now acting CEO of a defunct company that never was formed and had to make executive decisions despite having no technical control or access to anything. Do you know how fucking absurd this is? Then to be told by many different parties conflicting things to sign for their personal interest and get blamed for that.

These are facts, and every point can be proven.

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[calian]

I've watched Fun with Dick and Jane so I can envision the scenario you present. However I have to ask why you failed to communicate with the community for the past how many months (years?). I haven't followed things that closely since I fortunately didn't have anything in Bitcoinica when it crashed and burned. I'm not even sure who all the parties involved are (Bitcoinica consultancy - is this you/Intersango?), Zhou Tong, the purported hacker in China, Tihan, MTGOX, a liquidator, etc. However it seemed like the Intersango side of the equation was the only ones who were not communicating whatsoever throughout and the fact is that it doesn't seem like anyone has their money back yet.

[genjix]

I've watched Fun with Dick and Jane so I can envision the scenario you present. However I have to ask why you failed to communicate with the community for the past how many months (years?). I haven't followed things that closely since I fortunately didn't have anything in Bitcoinica when it crashed and burned. I'm not even sure who all the parties involved are (Bitcoinica consultancy - is this you/Intersango?), Zhou Tong, the purported hacker in China, Tihan, MTGOX, a liquidator, etc. However it seemed like the Intersango side of the equation was the only ones who were not communicating whatsoever throughout and the fact is that it doesn't seem like anyone has their money back yet.

I was on these forums all day long everyday during the entire time while nobody else said anything except the odd post from Zhou and a couple from Tihan. The only thing I did have is ability to vet claims and ask people what's happening.

Check my posting history:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=1931;sa=showPosts;start=100

[paraipan]

So why didn't you defend your reputation back then?

This is quite odd. You come back almost at the same time as Zhou and with lame excuses on top.

[benjamindees]

Tihan Seales the deal, as always.

I don't have the slightest bit of interest in Bitcoinica or Intersango, but anyone who is paying attention knows that there is massive fuckery afoot in the Bitcoin community.  And there has been for a long time.

Hello Thomas,
You are a network Admin at CNY-Media in Hannibal New York.
You should know what a log file looks like, and you should be able to prove this hack with little effort.

Well that's certainly interesting.

Did an employee of a New York based online reputation management firm just happen to scam a bunch of people out of their Bitcoins?

[tvbcof]

Thx for your input on this.  It will go, in filtered form, into my neurological data-bank.

FWIW...Although I feel that you (~genjix) should stay away from the media for the health of my pocketbook, I kinda sense that you are an OK guy and an OK programmer.  More importantly, that what you say about this and that is somewhat in earnest and may have some basis in reality.  ~phantom on the other hand strikes me as an A1 dickhead.  Just my opinion.   I have harassed you guys for the fun of it over the years.  Your epic fails deserve some attention after all

[calian]

Did you communicate in this thread? https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=109316.0

[TheKoziTwo]

Since you're back, what's your explanation for all this?

For me tbh, I could care less about people like Roger Ver who have a lot of money lost because they have lots more.

Amir,  I look forward to karma coming back to get you.
Believe it or not,  losing 24,000 BTC because of an idiot like you, HAS HAD A BIG BIG IMPACT ON MY LIFE!
People with attitudes like yours give a bad reputation to our entire movement.

Do the world a favor and quit your involvement with Bitcoin.

Sincerely,
Roger Ver

Amir,

I've refrained from getting involved at this point, but how dare you say something like this.

For me tbh, I could care less about people like Roger Ver who have a lot of money lost because they have lots more.

Do you know how much damn work Roger has done to get where he is today? Do you know how many sacrifices he has made for Bitcoin?

Wait...you don't. Know why?

BECAUSE YOU RELEASED THE GODDAMN SOURCE CODE OF BITCOINICA WHICH HAD THE MTGOX API IN IT WHICH LED TO THE THEFT OF ANOTHER 40K BTC AND WHO KNOWS HOW MANY USD.

Your fault! No one elses! How dare you say "Oh, I need time off." Please, I've heard that bullshit before.

Oh, and next time you trash and break a Segway in Vienna that Alex paid for because some fat girl offers you a hug...DONT RUN AWAY AND LEAVE THE SEGWAY IN THE STREET!!!!!! (true story for whoever wants to know. Roger, Erik and myself were there)

-Charlie

[genjix]

My explanation is to read my full post instead of taking snippets out of context.

[TheKoziTwo]

My explanation is to read my full post instead of taking snippets out of context.

I have read your full post and it seems like you're full of shit. There is no explanation.

And this is your reply to that quote, really?

That fat girl is a person you know. Why would you insult her when she's an innocent bystander?

I'm not saying I'm happy Roger Ver lost money, but simply that his life is not really impacted in a huge way compared to someone who barely has enough money to survive or eat because they lost it in Bitcoinica. I seem to recall in Vienna that you were talking about renting out an aeroplane. That's a level of extravagance that goes way way over my head. You probably live far more comfortably than the majority of people do including myself. Don't tell me that 25k out of 50k is more of a loss than $200 of $600. That's the difference between homeless and starving, vs surviving.

[MPOE-PR]

I've gotten a lot of hate from people who've blamed me for Bitcoinica, convinced I'm to blame. Maybe now you'll all understand. Here's some basic facts.

Coinlab were the investors behind Bitcoinica. Tihan Seale and Peter Vessenes founded Coinlab together. Tihan bought Bitcoinica and Coinlab was involved from the beginning. Patrick Murck filed the legal papers on behalf of Bitcoinica investors.

We were given fake shares in a fake company. The deal was to contract us to work on Bitcoinica. The site had been losing money for months and had huge security problems. A new company was formed to handle that agreement.

After the first compromise, despite huge problems in the setup and design of the website, they wanted to put it back up as fast as possible. I was against this strongly which is why I released the code. After an employee used this as an excuse to steal more funds (the evidence is definitive), they were upset more over the loss of the 'Intellectual Property'.

They scapegoated me. They wanted no liability and refused to help us complete the job for them. All the emails are public on this forum (I released them) as proof. Donald kept asking to speak to their superior but they refused.

I never had access to money or any servers. I was a programmer working on the hedging algorithm.

They are sneaky, and play dirty tactics. Tihan is a manipulative sociopath.

We had run Intersango, the biggest UK exchange for 2 years without any problems doing 2 million GBP turnover annually. The site has been closed down (due to UK bank problems) paying everyone back and we experienced no security flaws during its history. I had no reason to deliberately cause Bitcoinica users any harm, and if you actually go and study the evidence on the forums, you'll see I acted in all of your best interests.

When everyone ran off, a programmer was told he was now acting CEO of a defunct company that never was formed and had to make executive decisions despite having no technical control or access to anything. Do you know how fucking absurd this is? Then to be told by many different parties conflicting things to sign for their personal interest and get blamed for that.

These are facts, and every point can be proven.

This has to be saved for later.

[repentance]

So why didn't you defend your reputation back then?

This is quite odd. You come back almost at the same time as Zhou and with lame excuses on top.

To some extent, they tried.  There was an NDA in place.  They publicly asked for the NDA to be revoked after the Rackspace intrusion so they could disclose more information.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=58011;sa=showPosts

Amir posted the email they received from Tihan after they said they were going to make a public statement which would have contradicted some of the information posted by Zhou.

Regardless of whether you believe what Amir is saying or not, it's consistent with what he's been saying since whole Bitcoinica LP clusterfuck began.

It's not hard to see why the Intersango team would feel like they were thrown to the wolves when Zhou seems to have been protected at every turn.

[Justin00]

would the second 'hack' of occurred if the source code had not of been released ?

[ninjarobot]

I was against this strongly which is why I released the code. After an employee used this as an excuse to steal more funds (the evidence is definitive)

These are facts, and every point can be proven.

This is probably true. However where is this 'definitive' evidence you speak of?

[ab8989]

an employee used this as an excuse to steal more funds (the evidence is definitive)

So the theory that the hacks were really an inside job gets a confirmation. The word 'more' on this sentence is interesting as it most probably means that the same person performed also the earlier hack and now got more money on this second instance.

I would like to ask what has happened to this person you indicate you know who he is and you know the evidence against him?

Has he been convicted in a court of law? Or is he on his way to court appearance? Or has the police report been conveniently forgotten to be filed and this person you know who stole the funds is he enjoying his retirement in Bahamas?

[repentance]

would the second 'hack' of occurred if the source code had not of been released ?

If you mean the MtGox intrusion, it was the third "hack" that we know of - Linode, Rackspace, MtGox.

The release of the source code provided for the creation of a narrative explaining the MtGox intrusion.  Did the hacker already have the MtGox credentials prior to the release of the source code?  If you believe that Zhou either perpetrated the intrusion himself or was complicit in the intrusion, then the answer is yes.  

Whether something else would have occurred to sink Bitcoinica had the MtGox intrusion not occurred is a matter for conjecture.

[phantomcircuit]

would the second 'hack' of occurred if the source code had not of been released ?

The theft of frunds from the MtGox account was not the result of the source code being leaked.

[repentance]

Would either Patrick or Amir care to comment on the Rackspace intrusion?

[ninjarobot]

would the second 'hack' of occurred if the source code had not of been released ?

The theft of frunds from the MtGox account was not the result of the source code being leaked.

From what I understand it was.

Bitcoinica Source leak > MtGox API key > Lastpass pwd > MtGox account credentials > MtGox theft (40K BTC/ 40K USD).

If the leak did not cause the MtGox theft, then what did?

[ab8989]

If the leak did not cause the MtGox theft, then what did?

Read the thread. It has now been confirmed by 2 people, genjix and phantomcircuit, that the thief already knew the passwords and everything before the source code was leaked and the thief just thought that the leak would provide him a smokescreen and plausible deniability as it could be claimed that the group of people that knew the passwords was much larger.