My girlfriends house in Germany

[SilverBullet]

so whats the highest bid right now? I dont get it 

[bitcoin_bob]

so whats the highest bid right now? I dont get it 

35BTC.

[nebulus]

Haha, neat!

[medicine]

One of the most interesting threads of the day for me. 

This whole issue of proving a sale is legit, especially one of this value, must be the responsibility of the seller in my opinion.

For this size of purchase bitcoin needs a more efficient and trusted service rather then this forum.  Until then escrow is one of the sellers best tools.  Why on earth if you weren't a legit seller would you refuse? 

Scammers are incredibly crafty these days and 25,000 euros is a nice payday for a couple dudes and one not so elaborate scam.

Not accusing you at all bitcoin_bob but as a community we have to be careful and work together to weed out BS until more trust worthy systems are in place.

Just try selling this market for cash on Craigslist why don't you? 

[Inedible]

Not sure how it works in the US, Chaang Noi but in the UK, we use the lawyers as escrow.

You have a lawyer, they have a lawyer.

The lawyers are the ones who do the exchange.

They're not allowed to defraud otherwise they'd lose their license to practice so yeah, you could opt to have an additional escrow service over and above the lawyers but here there's no point.

Perhaps it works like this in Germany too, hence the lack of desire/need by OP to use escrow.

[Inedible]

Not sure how it works in the US, Chaang Noi but in the UK, we use the lawyers for escrow.

You have a lawyer, they have a lawyer.

The lawyers are the ones who do the exchange.

They're not allowed to defraud otherwise they'd lose their license to practice so yeah, you could opt to have an additional escrow service over and above the lawyers but here there's no point.

Perhaps it works like this in Germany too, hence the lack of desire/need by OP to use escrow.

Edited

[Inedible]

Ooops! That's not how you perform an edit 

[memvola]

Not sure how it works in the US, Chaang Noi but in the UK, we use the lawyers as escrow.

You have a lawyer, they have a lawyer.

The lawyers are the ones who do the exchange.

They're not allowed to defraud otherwise they'd lose their license to practice so yeah, you could opt to have an additional escrow service over and above the lawyers but here there's no point.

Perhaps it works like this in Germany too, hence the lack of desire/need by OP to use escrow.

But in Germany you can't give them BTC. There is no way this can work like that with BTC.

I'm not sure if it works similar the U.K. in Germany, but it can potentially be made to work either way. The tricky part is enabling the seller to make sure the coins can't be double spent, while requiring no computer skills from the notary.

I'm sure there is a better way, but off the top of my head, you should be able to do this with a 3-of-4 transaction. The buyer requests two addresses from the seller, and generates two addresses himself. Both the buyer and the seller give one of the private keys to the notary. If the sales succeeds, the notary gives the buyer's key to the seller. If it fails, it gives the seller's key to the buyer so that he can reclaim the sum.

Assuming this is correct in principle, it would be pretty easy to encode into legal speak. However, the notary should be instructed to keep the numbers safe and preserve copies.

[talnted]

The area looks beautiful.  I hope we see this auction go higher.

[memvola]

notary might not know if it was funded, also is btc legal tender in germany?

The seller will know that it's funded before signing, which should suffice. However, either the buyer or the seller could intentionally give a faulty privkey, which could result in funds staying in limbo forever. I'm sure there is a better way of doing this, but I'll have to think about it.

I don't think you need to pay with legal tender, or even pay at all, to switch ownership. One can do whatever they want with their property, and if the seller doesn't appear like she's evading taxes, I don't think anyone will care.

[iANDROID]

Possible to visit it?

[El Cabron]

Possible to visit it?

if OP gives an address nothing would stop you. but i doubt he will give you a tour as he is in Canada.

[bitcoin_bob]

notary might not know if it was funded, also is btc legal tender in germany?

The seller will know that it's funded before signing, which should suffice. However, either the buyer or the seller could intentionally give a faulty privkey, which could result in funds staying in limbo forever. I'm sure there is a better way of doing this, but I'll have to think about it.

I don't think you need to pay with legal tender, or even pay at all, to switch ownership. One can do whatever they want with their property, and if the seller doesn't appear like she's evading taxes, I don't think anyone will care.

OK just got back to the desk, I see this has become more of a discussion thread than an auction but hey, I will roll with it. It is interesting to hammer this out for people in the future.

Firstly, I never said I WOULD NOT take an escrow. I just raised a bunch of points why, in my opinion that I don't see how we would be protected by it. As I said many times over, this is a house, something with legal land title, not a silk road drug stash or a bitcoin miner. I don't even see how in the world such a scam could be pulled off, as legal title to check is obvious. But Mr. Goat et. al seem to be hell bent on screaming scammer without answering my defenses or even trying to explain how such an escrow would work. To be honest I feel like I am in the salem witch trials here, and every time I open my mouth and say something before I finish my sentence someone is screaming 'WITCH!!!' and when I say well I have a lawyer someone else screams 'WITCHES have lawyers too, burn him!'.

Understand I am a property developer, and have done so in many places including Germany. I am familiar with the process and laws. Hence why my Girlfriend (who is a real estate agent, who I met when purchasing my house ironically) asked me if I could deal with this one, and we decided it would be fun as it didnt cost anything for her, and is not something we would look to develop, to sell it on the bitcoin forum.

I apreciate the dialogue we have going here and all points are valid, but, could some of the champions of escrow please answer my previous questions if they so believe that escrow is a good idea. I'm just not seeing the point to it, but I fail to see how that automatically makes me a scammer, same as I also float when I go in the water and black cats do sometimes cross my shadow, but I fail to see how that makes me a witch.

[memvola]

notary might not know if it was funded, also is btc legal tender in germany?

The seller will know that it's funded before signing, which should suffice. However, either the buyer or the seller could intentionally give a faulty privkey, which could result in funds staying in limbo forever. I'm sure there is a better way of doing this, but I'll have to think about it.

I don't think you need to pay with legal tender, or even pay at all, to switch ownership. One can do whatever they want with their property, and if the seller doesn't appear like she's evading taxes, I don't think anyone will care.

sadly the seller is in canada anyway so that is going to make this crazy hard

It might not be any harder than doing it without Bitcoin. Instead of issuing a cheque in the name of the notary (potential technical troubles, high fees, etc.) or making a wire transfer (assuming notaries work that way in Germany), you will mail in the required secrets. Assuming there is a foolproof way of making it work, that is.

I see this has become more of a discussion thread than an auction but hey, I will roll with it. It is interesting to hammer this out for people in the future.

Not only for the future though. I'm also interested in the property, but it would be nice to figure out the way that's most convenient for both buyer and the seller.

even on silk road you must use escrow.

I don't think you got what he's saying.

[bitcoin_bob]

notary might not know if it was funded, also is btc legal tender in germany?

The seller will know that it's funded before signing, which should suffice. However, either the buyer or the seller could intentionally give a faulty privkey, which could result in funds staying in limbo forever. I'm sure there is a better way of doing this, but I'll have to think about it.

I don't think you need to pay with legal tender, or even pay at all, to switch ownership. One can do whatever they want with their property, and if the seller doesn't appear like she's evading taxes, I don't think anyone will care.

OK just got back to the desk, I see this has become more of a discussion thread than an auction but hey, I will roll with it. It is interesting to hammer this out for people in the future.

Firstly, I never said I WOULD NOT take an escrow. I just raised a bunch of points why, in my opinion that I don't see how we would be protected by it. As I said many times over, this is a house, something with legal land title, not a silk road drug stash or a bitcoin miner. I don't even see how in the world such a scam could be pulled off, as legal title to check is obvious. But Mr. Goat et. al seem to be hell bent on screaming scammer without answering my defenses or even trying to explain how such an escrow would work. To be honest I feel like I am in the salem witch trials here, and every time I open my mouth and say something before I finish my sentence someone is screaming 'WITCH!!!' and when I say well I have a lawyer someone else screams 'WITCHES have lawyers too, burn him!'.

Understand I am a property developer, and have done so in many places including Germany. I am familiar with the process and laws. Hence why my Girlfriend (who is a real estate agent, who I met when purchasing my house ironically) asked me if I could deal with this one, and we decided it would be fun as it didnt cost anything for her, and is not something we would look to develop, to sell it on the bitcoin forum.

I apreciate the dialogue we have going here and all points are valid, but, could some of the champions of escrow please answer my previous questions if they so believe that escrow is a good idea. I'm just not seeing the point to it, but I fail to see how that automatically makes me a scammer, same as I also float when I go in the water and black cats do sometimes cross my shadow, but I fail to see how that makes me a witch.

even on silk road you must use escrow.

so you will use escrow? yes or no?

Mr Goat,

Please stop trolling me and also sending me hateful messages in my PM box. I don't care if you have a MBA or are a VIP member, again I asked a question and you basically shouted 'Witch' from the gallery. You surely are embarrassing yourself now, either answer my questions about escrow and then let me make my decision or stop bloody harassing me!

[SilverBullet]

no escrow = scam

[nelisky]

It might not be any harder than doing it without Bitcoin. Instead of issuing a cheque in the name of the notary (potential technical troubles, high fees, etc.) or making a wire transfer (assuming notaries work that way in Germany), you will mail in the required secrets. Assuming there is a foolproof way of making it work, that is.

That is exactly where a BTC escrow comes in. If you write a cheque you know the money is with you, and the buyer knows they have something to get to the money.

With BTC I can give you my private key but there's no knowing when you move the coins using that key and there is nothing I can do about it. Also, you might close the deal and then I move the coins myself (we both have the private key) and there's nothing you can do about it. With escrow none of us holds the private key, and we both have some recourse if something goes wrong (granted, it depends on how much one can trust the escrow). In the end, escrow service is the cheque in normal currency.

[memvola]

It might not be any harder than doing it without Bitcoin. Instead of issuing a cheque in the name of the notary (potential technical troubles, high fees, etc.) or making a wire transfer (assuming notaries work that way in Germany), you will mail in the required secrets. Assuming there is a foolproof way of making it work, that is.

That is exactly where a BTC escrow comes in. If you write a cheque you know the money is with you, and the buyer knows they have something to get to the money.

With BTC I can give you my private key but there's no knowing when you move the coins using that key and there is nothing I can do about it. Also, you might close the deal and then I move the coins myself (we both have the private key) and there's nothing you can do about it. With escrow none of us holds the private key, and we both have some recourse if something goes wrong (granted, it depends on how much one can trust the escrow). In the end, escrow service is the cheque in normal currency.

That's why I suggested multi-sig, though I think we'd need a better key exchange. My post was about figuring out a way of enabling the notary to act as an escrow without having to use a computer. Then you would go through the usual process without having to change much.

I apreciate the dialogue we have going here and all points are valid, but, could some of the champions of escrow please answer my previous questions if they so believe that escrow is a good idea. I'm just not seeing the point to it, but I fail to see how that automatically makes me a scammer, same as I also float when I go in the water and black cats do sometimes cross my shadow, but I fail to see how that makes me a witch.

I'll attempt at answering.

I've traded properties in different countries, and things wildly change from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. Once, I carried a huge chunk of money hidden in my underwear, then took it out and gave it to the seller, using a local bank manager as witness. I think exchanging property with Bitcoin is a bit like that.

If the buyer pays in advance (which I never do if I'm buying property with cash), the seller can claim that she didn't receive the money. If the seller transfers the property, there is no way of proving she didn't receive the money already.

That's where the notary comes in. I don't know how it works in Germany, but in some places (e.g. U.K.?) the notary does all sorts of research and guarantees that the property is as advertised, and can also act as an escrow for payment. If you are paying through the banking system, both the buyer and the seller can prove the transaction, so there is even less trouble.

If you can agree on a trusted escrow who is knowledgeable enough to understand the process, he would complement the notary on the BTC side of things. If there is no notary involved (change of ownership is done directly through the registry), it would be even more straightforward (though buyer then needs to investigate the property himself).

[bitcoin_bob]

It might not be any harder than doing it without Bitcoin. Instead of issuing a cheque in the name of the notary (potential technical troubles, high fees, etc.) or making a wire transfer (assuming notaries work that way in Germany), you will mail in the required secrets. Assuming there is a foolproof way of making it work, that is.

That is exactly where a BTC escrow comes in. If you write a cheque you know the money is with you, and the buyer knows they have something to get to the money.

With BTC I can give you my private key but there's no knowing when you move the coins using that key and there is nothing I can do about it. Also, you might close the deal and then I move the coins myself (we both have the private key) and there's nothing you can do about it. With escrow none of us holds the private key, and we both have some recourse if something goes wrong (granted, it depends on how much one can trust the escrow). In the end, escrow service is the cheque in normal currency.

I'm still failing to see the usefulness here. Maybe I am not explaining myself fully, so I will try harder.

This is how a usual property sale goes, whenever I have done one. I fail to see the difference here between BTC, GBP JPY or brass thumbtacks.

1. buyer makes 'offer to buy'. At the close of this auction, lets take that as the buyers 'offer to buy'.

2. Now this might be the bit that confuses bitcoin users- The buyer and seller, before any money changes hands, sign 'purchase and sale contracts' with their legal names, passports etc and this information is sent to the lawyer in germany. The seller signs a document saying that s/he accepts to sell the property to the buyer for a euro, a bitcoin or a thumbtack. This becomes known as the 'acceptance' and once sold is IRREVOKABLE by the buyer. It is a legal document. I understand that bitcoin is an anonymous currency, and hence when you are buying something with no title that you would want security but property has security of title. Anyway onto step 3.

3. Once the notary has received offer to buy and offer to sell, he will start the property transfer process. Then there are two options, advance purchase and post confirmation purchase.

Advance purchase: buyer pays the money to the seller and the seller issues a certificate of funds received, clearly marked and signed in front of a lawyer that 'all monies are paid and nothing is outstanding' which is sent to the notary. This means you effectively from that day have a 100% titular mortgage on the property which can be put on the act II (encumbrances) register in the german land registry. Advance purchases are not advisable in situations such as denkmalschutz properties, properties with encumberances (mortgages) or properties for which first right purchase can be made (historical properties, properties in an area of redvelopment IE a highway is going through, the government has first right of purchase)

Post confirmation purchase: a post confirmation purchase is where the notary checks all title act I and act II registrations, and pre registers the buyer in the register. The notary then issues a letter to both parties saying 'now is the time for payment' and once seller confirms payment is received, issues again said certificate of funds and the property is transfered.

At any stage after the purchase and sale agreement is signed if the seller 'runs off' with the money (and leaves his house behind, not exactly like you can put it in a bag and take it with you when you run away) the buyer can 'foreclose' on the act II with the purchase and sale agreement.  So would become owner anyway. Before said contracts are exchanged, no money changes hands (except for usually a small deposit or something to show the buyer serious so the seller can instruct his lawyer to draw legal documents).

So surely, people, you can see why I am scratching my head to what escrow is going to achieve? NO MONEY CHANGES HANDS BEFORE CONTRACTS ARE SIGNED! So how the hell, am I supposed to scam someone!

These questions coming from a community of people who are without question sending $1000s to pre order miners from BFL.......

[psybits]

Just replied to watch this thread