My girlfriends house in Germany

[h4r13q1n]

This whole issue is a very interesting case. this is the first case I know from trading real estate in btc. So lets see that as an interesting question and stop the frickin accusations. Let us figure out how such a deal could actually work.

Its totally useless and also impolite, mr Goat, to ask the OP at gunpoint 'escrow or no escow', for he could still use a pay processor like bitpay instead of trusting anyone on this forum. Also, this was an auctions thread thats now ruined and invalid because of all the scam spam in here. The actual business would be a matter of the buyer and the vendor and thus is none of your concern Mr. Goat. I have not seen a bid from you so why do you even bother?

So could we just leave those hostilities out of this thread and discuss how such a transaction actually could take place.

As I said before, it would benefit the bitcoin community if we'd be able to show that real estate dealings have been done successfully with bitcoin, so its in the interest of the whole community to see this happen.

So I'd like to ask ANYONE, no matter how much reputation he's got here, to work constructively to solve the matter.

If those crying for escrow could explain in a detailed manner how they imagine the deal to work with some anonymous third person as an escrow in regard of lawyers and notaries involved, because I think they compare real estate deals to regular deals on this forum and thats not the case. Also its pretty dumb and shows your pavlovian conditioning by all these spammers - which does not apply for this particular transaction.

also, maybe OP might describe in detail how he imagines the deal will be processed.

Again, this is a very interesting precedent and should not be disturbed by all those self-acclaimed scam-hunters who do no benefit here and actually ARE, willing or not, trolls ITT.

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[Peter Lambert]

The bigger the purchase, the more important it is to use escrow.

You said we could check with the lawyer about the title of the property, but that would require you to give us the name of the owner and the address of the property. How do we know that the owner is actually your girlfriend? Maybe she could sign some sort of document saying you are her designated sales representative?

Why isn't the address in the original description?

[h4r13q1n]

also, maybe OP might describe in detail how he imagines the deal will be processed.

1. buyer makes 'offer to buy'. At the close of this auction, lets take that as the buyers 'offer to buy'.

2. Now this might be the bit that confuses bitcoin users- The buyer and seller, before any money changes hands, sign 'purchase and sale contracts' with their legal names, passports etc and this information is sent to the lawyer in germany. The seller signs a document saying that s/he accepts to sell the property to the buyer for a euro, a bitcoin or a thumbtack. This becomes known as the 'acceptance' and once sold is IRREVOKABLE by the buyer. It is a legal document. I understand that bitcoin is an anonymous currency, and hence when you are buying something with no title that you would want security but property has security of title. Anyway onto step 3.

3. Once the notary has received offer to buy and offer to sell, he will start the property transfer process. Then there are two options, advance purchase and post confirmation purchase.

Advance purchase: buyer pays the money to the seller and the seller issues a certificate of funds received, clearly marked and signed in front of a lawyer that 'all monies are paid and nothing is outstanding' which is sent to the notary. This means you effectively from that day have a 100% titular mortgage on the property which can be put on the act II (encumbrances) register in the german land registry. Advance purchases are not advisable in situations such as denkmalschutz properties, properties with encumberances (mortgages) or properties for which first right purchase can be made (historical properties, properties in an area of redvelopment IE a highway is going through, the government has first right of purchase)

Post confirmation purchase: a post confirmation purchase is where the notary checks all title act I and act II registrations, and pre registers the buyer in the register. The notary then issues a letter to both parties saying 'now is the time for payment' and once seller confirms payment is received, issues again said certificate of funds and the property is transfered.

At any stage after the purchase and sale agreement is signed if the seller 'runs off' with the money (and leaves his house behind, not exactly like you can put it in a bag and take it with you when you run away) the buyer can 'foreclose' on the act II with the purchase and sale agreement.  So would become owner anyway. Before said contracts are exchanged, no money changes hands (except for usually a small deposit or something to show the buyer serious so the seller can instruct his lawyer to draw legal documents).

So surely, people, you can see why I am scratching my head to what escrow is going to achieve? NO MONEY CHANGES HANDS BEFORE CONTRACTS ARE SIGNED! So how the hell, am I supposed to scam someone!

These questions coming from a community of people who are without question sending $1000s to pre order miners from BFL.......

OP seems to know his stuff. Still in this model YOU OP could be scammed when the buyer just denies having received any funds. since btc in no legal tender, will blockchain info work as a prove of payment? Have you checked this with your lawyer?

Also,  we still have to see an explanation how this purchase should work with an forum-member serving as escrow.

Is there a particular reason OP that you refuse to give the address of the house? Do you fear it to be vandalized or something?

[h4r13q1n]

OP could be scammed when the buyer just denies having received any funds. since btc in no legal tender, will blockchain info work as a prove of payment? Have you checked this with your lawyer?

nonsense I wrote here.  Sorry guys. I knew what I wanted to say, didn't come out that way. It made sense the moment I thought it.

So, the contract is signed, funds are sent afterwards vs. contract signed, no funds sent. Will the blockchain be sufficient as evidence that no payment was made?

[Malawi]

Legal tender only means that the seller has to accept it in an exchange.

If you want to, you can sell a house for a handful of gravel or give it away, it is of no importance weather or not the payment you receive is a legal tender.

[iANDROID]

If you don't want to answer in English, I will try in German:

IST ES MÖGLICH DAS HAUS ZU BESUCHEN?

[bitcoin_bob]

OP seems to know his stuff. Still in this model YOU OP could be scammed when the buyer just denies having received any funds. since btc in no legal tender, will blockchain info work as a prove of payment? Have you checked this with your lawyer?

Also,  we still have to see an explanation how this purchase should work with an forum-member serving as escrow.

Is there a particular reason OP that you refuse to give the address of the house? Do you fear it to be vandalized or something?

As you say no one has reasonably said how a third party person holding funds would be able to make this deal work. I don't quite know what you are saying about the buyer denies receiving funds and I could be scammed can you elaborate?

As for the house adress, I did not refuse to supply it, I just forgot. And in the bloody effing torrents of the salem escrow trial the important questions that buyers would ask, have been sidelined as I have been doing my best to mount my defence against being branded a scammer. As one posted said (im having a hard time keeping up now) this auction has been well and truly hijacked.

However I pause for thought before posting the actual street address now I see that this auction might need to be abandoned due to the hijacking, and I have posted up the address of a house that is known to be not occupied and everyone knows we are in Canada. As you rightly said, it could open it up to Vandalisation.

I see no reason that if any genuine serious bidder wanted a viewing that should they PM me, I would email them not only the adress but tax documents and the lawyers information so they can do their 'due dilligence' But I doubt my lawyer would care for his info to be bounded about on here and get all kinds of random calls on his office (which, for anyone who has a lawyer will tell you, gets charged to account the minute you mention my girlfriends name its classed as taking a call on her behalf so hours of stupid mr goat style questions will cost money, not bitcoins either!)  

I am willing to, if a trusted member steps foward and would so volunteer, to provide a complete set of un blanked out land registry documents to them, ID card scan, and arrange a time for them to call her lawyer and verify that she is a trusted and respected person that really owns said house, and even professional references on both of us should be needed. Then this member could post and say they have verified all this information to put the scamsayers at bay.

[Akka]

OP could be scammed when the buyer just denies having received any funds. since btc in no legal tender, will blockchain info work as a prove of payment? Have you checked this with your lawyer?

nonsense I wrote here.  Sorry guys. I knew what I wanted to say, didn't come out that way. It made sense the moment I thought it.

So, the contract is signed, funds are sent afterwards vs. contract signed, no funds sent. Will the blockchain be sufficient as evidence that no payment was made?

In a court in Germany? Doubt it.

Also can you even pay for a house with BTC in Germany? 

Sure why not:

http://www.bafin.de/SharedDocs/Veroeffentlichungen/DE/Merkblatt/mb_111222_zag.html

Units of Value intended to function as currency that can be exchanged against real benefits, goods or services or that f.e. Bitcoin, can be created in computer networks ar not classified as E-Money, even if they serve the same economical Funktions as E-Money. [snip]

A permission to create and use this Units of Value as currency is not required. If this Units become a commercial subject themselves the business has to qualify as Bank account as for § 1 Abs. 1 Satz 2 Nrn. 4 or 10 KWG or Financial Service Provider as for § 1 Abs. 1a Satz 2 Nrn. 1 - 4 KWG and operates under reservation of § 32 Abs. 1 KWG  

It's allowed to accept BTC as currency for anything.

I also strongly Belive, that the Blockchain would be sufficient proof of payment for a court in Germany.

Just make sure the receiving BTC address is in the contract.

[bitcoin_bob]

If you don't want to answer in English, I will try in German:

IST ES MÖGLICH DAS HAUS ZU BESUCHEN?

Mann, I cant keep up with the posts this is supposed to be a 7 day, not a live auction I have a job too.......cut me a break please.

Yes of course you can visit the house if you prove you have a serious interest. Besuchen Sie meine Heimat. Danke!

[bitcoin_bob]

So, you want us to buy a house but you wont even give us the address?

Hmm...

Who is this 'us' Mr goat, are you now representing 'we the people'. Your offhanded comments about how you 'highly doubt' the German legal system will recognise something, yet you have know knowledge of German law, continued spam questioning of me about escrow yet providing no answers, and now after I have said that anyone who PMs me who wants to seriously bid are welcome to the address, but I don't want it on open forum (care to post your address Mr Goat?) Neither may the future purchaser either, and you respond with 'wont even give us the address'......

can you please stop acting like you are the BitAuction Police or Satoshi's right hand man/a high court judge of the German court/Goat Scam Police Department (GSPD?) or whatever it is you think you are. Many thanks

[Malawi]

That is good news, Now all we need is an address of the house.

Which he is not likely to post in this treas but rather as a PM to those who seem interested enough....

Let him finish his workday, get home, eat some dinner etc. The auction is not over in a few hrs.

[bitcoin_bob]

So, you want us to buy a house but you wont even give us the address?

Hmm...

Who is this 'us' Mr goat, are you now representing 'we the people'. Your offhanded comments about how you 'highly doubt' the German legal system will recognise something, yet you have know knowledge of German law, continued spam questioning of me about escrow yet providing no answers, and now after I have said that anyone who PMs me who wants to seriously bid are welcome to the address, but I don't want it on open forum (care to post your address Mr Goat?) Neither may the future purchaser either, and you respond with 'wont even give us the address'......

can you please stop acting like you are the BitAuction Police or Satoshi's right hand man/a high court judge of the German court/Goat Scam Police Department (GSPD?) or whatever it is you think you are. Many thanks

EDIT: actually rant on, Just found out via PM there is such a thing as an IGNORE button.

Click.....ahhhh.....relax.....

[gweedo]

So, you want us to buy a house but you wont even give us the address?

Hmm...

Who is this 'us' Mr goat, are you now representing 'we the people'. Your offhanded comments about how you 'highly doubt' the German legal system will recognise something, yet you have know knowledge of German law, continued spam questioning of me about escrow yet providing no answers, and now after I have said that anyone who PMs me who wants to seriously bid are welcome to the address, but I don't want it on open forum (care to post your address Mr Goat?) Neither may the future purchaser either, and you respond with 'wont even give us the address'......

can you please stop acting like you are the BitAuction Police or Satoshi's right hand man/a high court judge of the German court/Goat Scam Police Department (GSPD?) or whatever it is you think you are. Many thanks

EDIT: actually rant on, Just found out via PM there is such a thing as an IGNORE button.

Click.....ahhhh.....relax.....

Why would ignore someone that sounds very interested in your property, just does not make sense.

[SilverBullet]

if somebody is from germany near this area it shouldnt be a problem to find the house with the pictures.

[Rampion]

So, you want us to buy a house but you wont even give us the address?

Hmm...

Who is this 'us' Mr goat, are you now representing 'we the people'. Your offhanded comments about how you 'highly doubt' the German legal system will recognise something, yet you have know knowledge of German law, continued spam questioning of me about escrow yet providing no answers, and now after I have said that anyone who PMs me who wants to seriously bid are welcome to the address, but I don't want it on open forum (care to post your address Mr Goat?) Neither may the future purchaser either, and you respond with 'wont even give us the address'......

can you please stop acting like you are the BitAuction Police or Satoshi's right hand man/a high court judge of the German court/Goat Scam Police Department (GSPD?) or whatever it is you think you are. Many thanks

EDIT: actually rant on, Just found out via PM there is such a thing as an IGNORE button.

Click.....ahhhh.....relax.....

Why would ignore someone that sounds very interested in your property, just does not make sense.

Yeah, I was thinking about that too.

OP, rethink your position, Goat is no troll and no scammer, and he is demonstrating real interest in your house - just chill out and understand that his concerns are legit.

[bitcoin_bob]

That is good news, Now all we need is an address of the house.

Which he is not likely to post in this treas but rather as a PM to those who seem interested enough....

Let him finish his workday, get home, eat some dinner etc. The auction is not over in a few hrs.

yes, thanks. This has been an interesting day, I should now do more work. But, I feel a bit pulled in by all this so, I will continue to do my best and answer questions until Keyboard or wrist give way

Mods: Im wondering if this thread should be moved to some kind of 'discussions' thread so we can continue to discouse on the theory of legal title exchange within a bitcoin framework, which really I must admit myself am finding facinating even though its my auction hijacked....I would re-start the auction after verifying the house exists and this is a genuine deal with someone trusted in the community like this 'John' everyone is talking about. Then comments can simply be kept to bids, as this thread is starting to become a 'woods for the trees' scenario.

[bitcoin_bob]

So, you want us to buy a house but you wont even give us the address?

Hmm...

Who is this 'us' Mr goat, are you now representing 'we the people'. Your offhanded comments about how you 'highly doubt' the German legal system will recognise something, yet you have know knowledge of German law, continued spam questioning of me about escrow yet providing no answers, and now after I have said that anyone who PMs me who wants to seriously bid are welcome to the address, but I don't want it on open forum (care to post your address Mr Goat?) Neither may the future purchaser either, and you respond with 'wont even give us the address'......

can you please stop acting like you are the BitAuction Police or Satoshi's right hand man/a high court judge of the German court/Goat Scam Police Department (GSPD?) or whatever it is you think you are. Many thanks

EDIT: actually rant on, Just found out via PM there is such a thing as an IGNORE button.

Click.....ahhhh.....relax.....

Why would ignore someone that sounds very interested in your property, just does not make sense.

Yeah, I was thinking about that too.

OP, rethink your position, Goat is no troll and no scammer, and he is demonstrating real interest in your house - just chill out and understand that his concerns are legit.

It's difficult from my position to see that when all he wants to do is repeat the same questions over and over and not understand the answers. With the highest respect, I have to say that if I need to say the same thing 5 times over and get the same response from him, and he really comes across as stubborn as a mule (or goat?) then how are we going to ever get the legal complexities and paperwork done?

Sometimes in sales, its better to just let the customer walk away, walk away......

[bitcoin_bob]

if somebody is from germany near this area it shouldnt be a problem to find the house with the pictures.

Truthfully you could from those pictures probably locate the house on Google maps. And it's not a large village. And if you PM'ed me and sounded serious, you would also have the address to take a look see, telling me when and where and what you look like and what you are driving so my GF can tell the neighbours why there are people poking round the house and what they would look like.

[candoo]

@bitcoin_bob does your girlfriend live in germany?  How will you handle the deal? She has to come over at least one time

[Rampion]

@bitcoin_bob does your girlfriend live in germany?  How will you handle the deal? She has to come over at least one time

Pics of your girlfriend or it didn't happen (sorry, I couldn't help myself)