BFL 6 May 2013 ASIC Update

[KS]

So instead of 8 chips, the single will use 16 chips, it is a nice move that leaves a lot of room for chips. I remember that they said the test for running at 500Mhz is problematic but chips can run stable at 300Mhz, e.g. 4.8GH per chip

So if BKKcoins actually builds a functional Klondike, a 16 chip board that could clock to 300 Mhz per chip on a 10 cm x10 cm square at 32W as a DIY project in a few months what the hell has BFL been doing these past 10 months?

Each Klondike board has a 6 pin PCI Express power connector allowing efficient powering of many boards from a decent ATX PSU. A 16 chip board should be capable of 4512 MH/s and consume about 32W power. A low cost Corsair CX-600 PSU should easily power 16 boards using readily available power splitters. This provides for 72 GH/s off one low cost ATX PSU.

And costing roughly https://github.com/bkkcoins/klondike/blob/master/docs/Parts%20List.pdf what only $26.48 per manufactured board with runs of 25+ board minimum and $8 for an Avalon chip and then and in heatsinks with fans, the psu and time and sweat you could put have the following.

16 Avalon Chips............................  $128.00
1 Board......................................... $ 23.68
Corsair CX-600 PSU.......................... $70.00
1 Extruded Al Heat sink and fan.........  $16.00
Blood Sweat Tears.........................  $100.00
USB cable........................................ $2.00
32+ Watts.
4.8 GH/s
No extra shipping charges
Easily scales to 72 GH/s

For 340 USD?

Hmmm.

I see a tough road ahead for any BFL products if the Avalons DIY'ers get this working. This might prove the end of BFL considering this will be open source.

Won't scale to 72GH/s for 340 USD... more like 10.000 USD, which is in line with what Avalon is charging.

BFL might be trying to get economies of scale as they (possibly) realized they shot themselves in the foot with pricing. Then again, their ASIC is on a smaller process so each unit might be cheaper than the Avalon ones (so many variables...).

[smoothie]

Understood, but the Avalon chips are vaporware atm, possibly months off. Have they published the schematic and open source board design yet? It was meant to be May

Avalon chips will be a couple months off (they even announced they would be), but they're not vaporware. Avalon has shipped roughly 72000 chips. BFL has shipped roughly 70.

LOL when you really look at the truth, it must hurt being BFL

[Chefnet]

or they ordered tons off avalon chips and sale them with their stuff 

[smoothie]

or they ordered tons off avalon chips and sale them with their stuff 

LOL that would totally be in line with a scam.

[erk]

Won't scale to 72GH/s for 340 USD... more like 10.000 USD, which is in line with what Avalon is charging.

BFL might be trying to get economies of scale as they (possibly) realized they shot themselves in the foot with pricing. Then again, their ASIC is on a smaller process so each unit might be cheaper than the Avalon ones (so many variables...).

The Avalon 66GH/s has been measured at 620watts by at least one owner, and uses 240 chips that run at 275MH/s not 300MH/s even at 300MH/s we would be talking over 40watts per 16chip Klondike board. Personally I would wait until the chips have arrived, been fitted to a board and measured running before making efficiency and cost claims. You might suddenly find the 16 chip board needs more cooling or who know what other issues.

[KS]

Won't scale to 72GH/s for 340 USD... more like 10.000 USD, which is in line with what Avalon is charging.

BFL might be trying to get economies of scale as they (possibly) realized they shot themselves in the foot with pricing. Then again, their ASIC is on a smaller process so each unit might be cheaper than the Avalon ones (so many variables...).

The Avalon 66GH/s has been measured at 620watts by at least one owner, and uses 240 chips that run at 275MH/s not 300MH/s even at 300MH/s we would be talking over 40watts per 16chip Klondike board. Personally I would wait until the chips have arrived, been fitted to a board and measured running before making efficiency and cost claims. You might suddenly find the 16 chip board needs more cooling or who know what other issues.

I'm not sure what you're saying. Even if BKKcoins needs to add 10 or 20 or 30 USD in the BOM, say for cooling, then end price for a 240 chips machine will be around (lazy math coming) 15*400 USD = 6000 USD, without shipping and PSU. That's bang on with the 75BTC (8475 USD) that Avalon is asking, at the current BTC/USD value (around 113 as of this post), assuming Avalon wants to make a profit, 30%-40% seems like a reasonable markup (6000*1.30= 7800 USD, 6000*1.40 = 8400 USD).

BFL OTOH is so much cheaper it's scary. Maybe they figured they could release their ASICs at those prices and totally underestimated the demand. Now they realize you actually need a whole infrastructure behind their production, probably need to hire more ppl and have generally increasing costs (not to mention their engineering blunders). Ramping up fast is messy. and costly.

I think BKKcoins is in the right numbers, ballpark with Avalon. BFL is so much cheaper it is actually worrying.

[Red_Evil]

Won't scale to 72GH/s for 340 USD... more like 10.000 USD, which is in line with what Avalon is charging.

BFL might be trying to get economies of scale as they (possibly) realized they shot themselves in the foot with pricing. Then again, their ASIC is on a smaller process so each unit might be cheaper than the Avalon ones (so many variables...).

The Avalon 66GH/s has been measured at 620watts by at least one owner, and uses 240 chips that run at 275MH/s not 300MH/s even at 300MH/s we would be talking over 40watts per 16chip Klondike board. Personally I would wait until the chips have arrived, been fitted to a board and measured running before making efficiency and cost claims. You might suddenly find the 16 chip board needs more cooling or who know what other issues.

+1

I think this Project is and was for BFL too much ...

Orderded tons of "minirigs" boxes without any protoyp
ordered much boards without Chips ...
ordered Chips without knowing how it works and lost 5000 Chips ( 5 Wafer )


and now they get results to hot ... = new boards ... = new Boxes ... = new Design ... = new Price ...= New Boxes again .... =

and next ? they learn they must paid Bills over one Year without sold any product ... NOW all sales are final it was to be dangerous to pay more refunds with the compete dealys and old hope ... they learned they need first a protoyp to calculate some one ...

for over 1 Year  i know it BFL never hold the first date .. because the make some mistakes with the FPGA .... but i get a little bit hope they learned about her old mistakes

first product FPGA = 10 Month Delay
second one = ASIC = now a delay from ?7 mpnth ? ( ict - May ) ??

[Frizz23]

I think this Project is and was for BFL too much ...

Orderded tons of "minirigs" boxes without any protoyp
ordered much boards without Chips ...
ordered Chips without knowing how it works and lost 5000 Chips ( 5 Wafer )

That's what I keep telling people since months ...




BFL = bunch of overcocky cowboys.

[smoothie]

I think this Project is and was for BFL too much ...

Orderded tons of "minirigs" boxes without any protoyp
ordered much boards without Chips ...
ordered Chips without knowing how it works and lost 5000 Chips ( 5 Wafer )

That's what I keep telling people since months ...




BFL = bunch of overcocky cowboys.

And to add to that Joshy-boy can't even pay up his 1000 BTC bet with Runeks or at least prove he paid it.

And the 1000 charity donation BFL needs to make...


They keep dragging their feet on anything of SUBSTANCE.

Yet they shoot off their mouths on a whim. LOL so fucking ironic.

ALL TALK

[KS]

BFL = bunch of overcocky cowboys.

BFL= Bloody Fecking Late / Bunch of Fecking Learners / Biggest Fool's Lottery etc etc

[Bitinvestor]

What really kills me is that they still have devotees who think that they will ship in two weeks! It's shocking how gullible some people are. You BFL investors should have pulled your money out months ago and collapsed the house of cards like we did with bASIC. The bitcoins that I received as a refund from Tom made me more money than your mythical ASICs ever will.

[Xian01]

I think this Project is and was for BFL too much ...

Orderded tons of "minirigs" boxes without any protoyp
ordered much boards without Chips ...
ordered Chips without knowing how it works and lost 5000 Chips ( 5 Wafer )

and now they get results to hot ... = new boards ... = new Boxes ... = new Design ... = new Price ...= New Boxes again .... =

 This is indeed the very scary part for all of us preorder customers. With ASIC Miner starting to ship consumer units, and Avalon firing up the next batch, BFL needs to get their shit in order very soon, or they risk collapse from bad PR and complete loss of faith and confidence.

 We're facing the possible reality that all our money will be lost not because BFL was a ponzi scheme, but because they were just that incompetent at pulling this ASIC project off, and ran out of money before they were able to resolve their problems and regain confidence from the community.

[k9quaint]

And to add to that Joshy-boy can't even pay up his 1000 BTC bet with Runeks or at least prove he paid it.

And the 1000 charity donation BFL needs to make...

He claimed he paid both. Of course, he didn't say which transaction it was in...

[Xian01]

He claimed he paid both. Of course, he didn't say which transaction it was in...

 AFAIK, the 1000 BTC charity bet is still outstanding, and no proof hase been offered that the personal 1000 BTC bet was honored.

[RoadStress]

And to add to that Joshy-boy can't even pay up his 1000 BTC bet with Runeks or at least prove he paid it.

And the 1000 charity donation BFL needs to make...

He claimed he paid both. Of course, he didn't say which transaction it was in...

Really? Can you show us where he she paid both? Why not show us the transactions? Maybe he has something to hide? YES RETARD INABA THAT IS YOU WE ARE TALKING!

[blackarrow]

Avalon chips will be a couple months off (they even announced they would be), but they're not vaporware. Avalon has shipped roughly 72000 chips. BFL has shipped roughly 70.

Does anybody know why they have only 70 pcs? If they've made the ASICs they should have thousands.

[Marrs]

I'm not sure what you're saying. Even if BKKcoins needs to add 10 or 20 or 30 USD in the BOM, say for cooling, then end price for a 240 chips machine will be around (lazy math coming) 15*400 USD = 6000 USD, without shipping and PSU. That's bang on with the 75BTC (8475 USD) that Avalon is asking, at the current BTC/USD value (around 113 as of this post), assuming Avalon wants to make a profit, 30%-40% seems like a reasonable markup (6000*1.30= 7800 USD, 6000*1.40 = 8400 USD).

BFL OTOH is so much cheaper it's scary. Maybe they figured they could release their ASICs at those prices and totally underestimated the demand. Now they realize you actually need a whole infrastructure behind their production, probably need to hire more ppl and have generally increasing costs (not to mention their engineering blunders). Ramping up fast is messy. and costly.

I think BKKcoins is in the right numbers, ballpark with Avalon. BFL is so much cheaper it is actually worrying.

Avalon was expecting to make a profit when they planned to sell round 2 for $1500.

They were expecting competition at that point. When the competition failed to materialize, they jacked the price up as high as they believed they could get people to swallow. Everything above $1500 is monopoly rent for Avalon.

BKK's price comes close to Avalon's because the majority of their cost is Avalon's chips, which are probably making Avalon even more monopoly profit than their finished products.

I have no problem with Avalon making the money that they're making. They deserve it for beating the competition to market by such a huge margin of time. But don't think their prices are anywhere even close to their costs.

[wrenchmonkey]

I'm not sure what you're saying. Even if BKKcoins needs to add 10 or 20 or 30 USD in the BOM, say for cooling, then end price for a 240 chips machine will be around (lazy math coming) 15*400 USD = 6000 USD, without shipping and PSU. That's bang on with the 75BTC (8475 USD) that Avalon is asking, at the current BTC/USD value (around 113 as of this post), assuming Avalon wants to make a profit, 30%-40% seems like a reasonable markup (6000*1.30= 7800 USD, 6000*1.40 = 8400 USD).

BFL OTOH is so much cheaper it's scary. Maybe they figured they could release their ASICs at those prices and totally underestimated the demand. Now they realize you actually need a whole infrastructure behind their production, probably need to hire more ppl and have generally increasing costs (not to mention their engineering blunders). Ramping up fast is messy. and costly.

I think BKKcoins is in the right numbers, ballpark with Avalon. BFL is so much cheaper it is actually worrying.

Avalon was expecting to make a profit when they planned to sell round 2 for $1500.

They were expecting competition at that point. When the competition failed to materialize, they jacked the price up as high as they believed they could get people to swallow. Everything above $1500 is monopoly rent for Avalon.

BKK's price comes close to Avalon's because the majority of their cost is Avalon's chip, which are probably making Avalon even more monopoly profit than their finished products.

I have no problem with Avalon making the money that they're making. They deserve it for beating the competition to market by such a huge margin of time. But don't think their prices are anywhere even close to their costs.

This^^

You can't assume that the retail price people are paying for Avalon's chips reflect Avalon's cost. Probably half what they're selling them for is profit.

Hence, Avalon's cost per unit is going to be less, overall, than the DIYers who are paying a markup on the chips, and then a markup on the boards to those who have spent the time to create them.

Avalon is pocketing the markup on the chips, as well as the rest of the hardware components on what they sell, so they'd be turning a handsome profit even just selling at what DIY would cost.

I'm fully capitalist, so I have no problem with them making as much profit as the market will bear, but comparing DIY cost as a basis for determining Avalon's cost is short-sighted at best. Avalon is selling for so much more because they CAN. They have a product in hand that nobody else can really compete with at this point. Why would they sell it any cheaper? If/When BFL gets their asses in gear and starts shipping a product, Avalon will have to bring their prices down to whatever the market forces are driving.

[Full disclosure, I have an order with BFL, and I have a chip order in with Avalon]. Personally, I hope BOTH companies start shipping product again ASAP, as I'd like to be mining with both.

[Marrs]

Avalon is selling for so much more because they CAN. They have a product in hand that nobody else can really compete with at this point. Why would they sell it any cheaper? If/When BFL gets their asses in gear and starts shipping a product, Avalon will have to bring their prices down to whatever the market forces are driving.

And if they really wanted to maximize their profits, they would artificially delay shipment of round two and three, while collecting more BTC780 10k chip bundle orders.

That way, they keep people from getting scared away from ordering the chip bundles by a skyrocketing network difficulty.

Not that I necessarily believe that's what they are doing. But that would certainly increase their profits...

[PuertoLibre]

Avalon is selling for so much more because they CAN. They have a product in hand that nobody else can really compete with at this point. Why would they sell it any cheaper? If/When BFL gets their asses in gear and starts shipping a product, Avalon will have to bring their prices down to whatever the market forces are driving.

And if they really wanted to maximize their profits, they would artificially delay shipment of round two and three, while collecting more BTC780 10k chip bundle orders.

That way, they keep people from getting scared away from ordering the chip bundles by a skyrocketing network difficulty.

Not that I necessarily believe that's what they are doing. But that would certainly increase their profits...

Lets hope they use some of those funds for Gen 2. As well as a node shrink or two.

I don't mind Avalons strategy too much. They have encouraged people to take their designs and create new markets in distant regions. Eventually we (the customer) won't have to depend directly on Avalon to get our ASIC products. We will eventually depend on their affiliates taking the chips and creating their own designs and platforms.

Right now the Avalons from the Avalon team are becoming more like reference designs. They are doing the opposite of what BFL is doing. BFL is proprietary and secret. No one will ever buy their chips or make a design of their own. There won't ever be any real competition from BFL or a market that isn't just BFL itself.

What Avalon is effectively doing is encouraging startups and entrepreneurs who can and eventually will create their own designs and improve upon it. You will have alot more options a little later on. You won't always have to depend on the Avalon Team to ship out your products. They will only mass manufacture the chips and send them to the other companies who will then integrate them into their own products and create more variety and complexity.

---------------------

For example,

It is a multi-million dollar profit market for the first guy who designs an FPGA + ASIC miner who can not only do BitCoins but also various ALT coins. The Avalon Team can continue to improve their BitCoin ASICs while other who are willing to go further can integrate designs that include ALT Coin mining.