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Author Topic: Block size isn't important  (Read 965 times)
dinofelis
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July 07, 2017, 01:07:25 PM
 #21

Bitcoin is based upon a bogus application of sound money doctrine, but has no value regulation mechanism in it that tries to make bitcoin keep constant economic value (or slightly and predictably increasing or decreasing value).  In other words, bitcoin has no deflation/inflation control AT ALL, and has fallen into a speculative deflationary spiral.

Imho it was designed to be deflationary. Just think: 21M cap from start, the real chance that some money will be lost (pk lost, tx sent to wrong address or simply burned..), this doesn't look like a mistake.


It is a mistake to think that this will become a CURRENCY.  

The mistake is a misunderstanding of what sound money doctrine was about, and the mistake is also to think that the slight inflation in fiat currency is a problem (essentially, it is based upon a misunderstood pile of conspiracy theories).

The sound money doctrine (by the Austrian school) considered that it is such a bad idea to have a CENTRAL PLANNER decide arbitrarily upon the printing of money under POLICITAL INFLUENCE, that it is better to have a constant amount of money that "is in circulation since ever".  What was considered bad by Austrians, is SEIGNIORAGE.  If there's no way to print money, there will not be seigniorage.

This is why Austrians liked gold, because gold is already in circulation for millennia.  Nobody is going to "start putting gold in circulation".  It IS already in circulation and it WAS already highly valuable.  At no point, Austrians considered huge value appreciation of gold beyond the economic growth, because, exactly, gold was already valuable and widely distributed.

However, bitcoin is new, so there WAS huge seigniorage (those making the first bitcoins, didn't have to burn as much proof of work as people now, so they got essentially printed bitcoin "for free").  This seigniorage of the initial bitcoin printing with few PoW costs screwed entirely the MOTIVATION of sound money doctrine.  Bitcoin was also new to the world, so it didn't have value, and it was in very limited circulation.  

All this made bitcoin totally different from gold's economic situation, and made that the REASONS for the sound money doctrine were of no value in bitcoin.

So bitcoin inherited all the PROBLEMS of sound money doctrine (namely the lack of value control) while it didn't have any of the reasons why sound money doctrine was preferred by the Austrians (no seigniorage, already high value, already very old and in circulation, very well known, and largely used: gold).

Nash explains us what the ideal CURRENCY is.  Gold from sound money doctrine can only be a remote approximation under the original conditions of the sound money doctrine, but bitcoin's application of sound money doctrine with huge seigniorage, low initial value and growing user base is EXTREMELY REMOTE from Nash's ideal money.  In fact, it is difficult to imagine a WORSE form of currency.

A good currency has constant, or predictably slightly evolving, economic value.  Proof of work for coin creation at CONSTANT ECONOMIC COST would have been a very good approximation to Nash's ideal money.  If the first bitcoin mined would have COSTED AS MUCH in PoW as a bitcoin mined today, we would have had:

- constant value of bitcoin (namely close to the constant cost of mining it with PoW)
- no seigniorage (you waste all of it on PoW)
- coin emission on par with adoption
- no speculation

It would have been a very good currency.

Bitcoin, in true sound money vision, could only become a kind of a currency after all of it was in circulation for such a long time, that all of its seigniorage was dissipated economically for a long time, and that it had been in wide use like gold since a long time.  In other words, 500 years from now or so.
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July 07, 2017, 03:06:50 PM
 #22

How are you supposed to keep the bitcoin network decentralized if we are having 1GB blocks every 10 minutes? who is the custodial of the network if not a couple of deep pocket corporations and how is that decentralize at that point?

The possession of non-mining nodes doesn't contribute to the decentralization of bitcoin's consensus mechanism, which is SOLELY decided by miners and doesn't need Joe's full node in his basement.  So whether Joe has invested in a node in his basement or not, the ONLY THING Joe's node can do, is to copy the sole chain on which miners came to consensus - whatever that chain is, according to whatever protocol - or NOT copy that chain, at which point his full node stopped, and has the same effect as being removed or switched off, which will affect nobody.

But by the time that bitcoin NEEDS 1 GB blocks, if ever, most Joe's will be prefectly capable of affording such a node in their basement, even though it doesn't serve much of a purpose (it does serve some privacy purpose to Joe but that's about it).

At this point in time, only about 20 entities make all the consensus decisions in bitcoin ; half of them by only 5 entities (which may even be related).  That's the true state of "decentralisation" of bitcoin.  All the people that can only copy those data and serve as a proxy for it are not part of the decision power, and hence are not part of the decentralisation of the consensus.


Running a full node allows you to decide what is bitcoin. If you don't own a full node, you can't decide can bitcoin is, the corporation running the full node which you are relying upon is deciding for you.

Sorry, there's no way around this. Optimal usage of bitcoin requires running a full node, otherwise you are someone else's cuck.
dinofelis
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July 07, 2017, 03:18:20 PM
 #23

Running a full node allows you to decide what is bitcoin. If you don't own a full node, you can't decide can bitcoin is, the corporation running the full node which you are relying upon is deciding for you.

Sorry, there's no way around this. Optimal usage of bitcoin requires running a full node, otherwise you are someone else's cuck.

Nope.  If you run a full node, you can FIND OUT whether what is in the block chain, is "bitcoin as you think you knew it".  But that doesn't change the fact that bitcoin "out there" is what it is (that is, what the miners have been building).  As there is no OTHER bitcoin around, your full node will simply INFORM you whether the only bitcoin out there is what you thought it was (it will update), or whether the only bitcoin out there doesn't correspond to what you thought it was (it will stop).

That's about it. 

That's about as useful to use a "full telescope" to see whether the moon is still what you thought it was.  If the moon is not what you thought it was, your "full telescope" will inform you, but that won't change anything to the only moon out there.

You have no *power* by running a full node.  You only have one extra bit of information: "the only bitcoin out there corresponds to what the rule set in my full node thinks it should be".

In as much as you care about that information, you may invest in a full node to obtain that information ; in the same way that you may want to invest in a 'full telescope' to inspect the "validity of the moon".  The bit may inform you about how to invest.  But that's it.  The telescope may inform you whether to invest in moon-related assets or not.  But that's it.

You are not "at the mercy of a company" if you use its full node, because you can always check that the full node has the right header chain (you ask for it, and it can't fake it - it would need proof of work for that).  And you can check all the transactions you are interested in (your coins and payments).  That's what a SPV wallet does.  They cannot lie to you about nor the header chain, nor your transactions (Merkle tree path).   There's no way to "serve false data" to a SPV wallet.

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July 07, 2017, 03:19:57 PM
 #24

The Block size becomes important when the capacity {tx per second} cannot handle the load. I like the direction that scaling is going with the

lightning network and hope this will be well accepted in the future. The test simulations that were done has shown that the network will be able

to handle the load and that is what is important.  Grin

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skorupi17
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July 07, 2017, 04:41:45 PM
 #25

Increasing the block size for now is beneficial (I do not say that it is needed or important at any circumstances) in order to process more transactions per block and have a lower fees for every transactions. The transaction fees nowadays are crazy high that sending small amount is never a wise decision. Maybe increasing to 1 GB block is not important but maybe increasing to 2 MB is not that harmful?
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July 07, 2017, 05:25:26 PM
 #26

2mb block size for a single transaction may sound normal but imagine 20000 transactions in a single block and that's how it works. bitcoin miners are given a network block which contains around 20000 transactions each of them containing all their previous transaction trees. so developers are taking that old transaction details which are taking huge memory and keep it in a warehouse which they call a segwet wallet and add a pointer to the original transaction.
dinofelis
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July 08, 2017, 03:54:30 AM
 #27

Though I'm not ready to run it, I'm actually intrigued by Bitcoin Unlimited's approach of letting the miners vote on the size of the blocks.

There are essentially 3 approaches:

1) put in a hard limit (like in bitcoin), and do a hard fork every so many years.  We see that that doesn't work, and is not a reliable system.  It goes against the very idea of a decentralized crypto currency where people "know the rules" (essentially immutability). 

2) put in an *automatic* algorithm that determines fees and/or dynamic block size as a function of recent past chain usage --> this is very gameable if there is no tail emission.  Essentially, you try to make a deterministic price algorithm for a market.

3) don't put in any limit in the protocol itself, and let the miners themselves pick the block sizes they want to use themselves, and they want to accept --> this is game-theoretically usually divergent towards infinitely large blocks if the miners are decentralized and truly competing, or towards very small blocks if they can cartelize.

You can understand these terms if you consider "block space" as equivalent to "number of coins", and "fees" as "market price of a coin".  If you consider block room a scarce quantity, and the market price of that scarce quantity, the fee, then these 3 paths are the analogy of:

1) decide by hard forks how many coins are in circulation.  Here it is more obvious why that's problematic !

2) put an automatic coin emission system in place that will emit coins as a function of past coin usage.

3) let users decide how many coins they create.

Obviously, 1 and 3 are not going to work.  Our only hope is to find an algorithm like in 2. 
But the problem is that without tail emission, which would give a "reference point of block reward" that would be able to satisfy many miners, if the full miner rewards are determined by a very volatile fee market, games can be played by big miners, like spamming, that would game the algorithm.  The principal problem is that the "cost of spamming" goes into the pocket of the miners.  So while non-miners would be refrained from spamming because of the cost of it, for miners, this cost is non-existent because they are also on the receiving side of this.  As miners also decide what goes on the block, they could make the algorithm think that there's not much activity by NOT including many transactions into the block chain, having the algorithm reduce significantly the block size, and creating artificial scarcity.  By spamming with low fees, they could make the algorithm think that "the fees are too low" if ever there's such a part in it, and have the algorithm decrease the block size to increase fees.

As miners are the entities deciding WHAT goes into the blocks (more or less real user transactions, more or less spam transactions), they entirely determine the INPUT to any dynamic algorithm, and hence, they determine essentially, knowing the algorithm, what will be the block size and hence the fees, which they can optimize to whatever the market will bear.

It is only if miners have also a FIXED income (tail emission) that they will refrain from playing these games, which will affect market value in the long term, and will try to serve the coin for best market value (which would come down to having the system work optimally).  If they ENTIRELY depend on the fees where they have a lever arm, it is obvious that miners will chose, say, 10 times higher fees, even if this crashes the market price by, say, a factor of 5: they won a factor of 2 in real income, but the system is highly under performing.


Quote
Since the miners benefit from transaction fees, doesn't this effectively give them (collective) control over the supply of block space? They will increase supply when the fee market is too small, to increase their customer base.

That's the case with tail emission.  But if fees are dominant, they will optimize the PRODUCT of fees and market price, which may very well contain a high fee factor and a low market price.

That's essentially the crux of it.
dinofelis
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July 08, 2017, 04:22:39 AM
 #28

To follow up on this:

We can now see the fundamental difficulties in the economical model of bitcoin.

1) the choice of "proof of work" as sybil-avoiding decentralizing consensus voting failed because:
1a) Proof of work was meant to be costly to pretend to be many (because, exactly, it proved waste), so the idea was that people would be willing to "waste one PC equivalent" but not much more, and hence we would have truly decentralized consensus voting BUT
1b) this proof of work was COMPENSATED with coin creation and fees, which set off the "punishment for sybilling" and actually made it LUCRATIVE to "sybil", which is nothing else but "economies of scale in mining". 

==> COMPENSATED "proof of work" with coin creation/fees has the OPPOSITE effect than the "punishment for sybilling": sybilling allows you, on the contrary, to profit from economies of scale, and hence, compensated proof of work works towards centralization, instead of decentralization.

1c) however, proof of work being the (bad) cryptographic security of the block chain, one NEEDS a lot of proof of work, which nobody honest is going to be willing to provide "out of his pocket" for the well-being of the community, while a motivated attacker will exactly be motivated.  So proof of work that secures the past consensus (block chain history immutability) NEEDS to be (heavily) rewarded.

==> proof of work cannot work as a consensus decision mechanism without centralizing the entire system.

(this is why I'm in favour of NON REWARDED proof of stake, which gives very strong cryptographic protection, and can be provided by all users at very low cost "out of their pockets").

2) the sound money doctrine of bitcoin doesn't allow proof of work to be rewarded sufficiently in the long run by coin creation, and hence needs fees, which we've outlined, will be gamed by the miners in order to obtain the maximum fee extraction the market can bear, which has nothing to do with the optimal working point of the system (on the contrary, it is maximal extortion of the system, like the maximum of the Laffer curve for taxes).  Miners will create an artificial scarcity of transactions to obtain maximum gain.

In voluntary proof of stake with no fees or no rewards, it are the users themselves that will pick the RIGHT block size, that is, where true resource cost (network, storage, computing) starts to become prohibitive for normal users, and will limit blocks that way, so that the network will not be overloaded.  Unrewarded PoS users have all interest that their system works optimally.  There are no games to be played, because there's nothing to win from hindering the system if you have a big stake.

The fundamental point is that from the moment there are rewards, there are optimal gaming strategies to be played to win the maximum of these rewards, which usually goes against the original idea of why a reward was given in the first place.

What goes wrong in bitcoin's economic model is hence:

1) the use of proof of work for consensus
2) the (necessary) linking of proof of work with rewards
3) the sound money doctrine that makes coin creation dry up.

People would say that these ideas were in fact the essence of bitcoin.
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July 08, 2017, 04:43:49 AM
 #29

Block size isn't important.

What is important, is how many transactions per second 2MB and larger block sizes can yield.

And whether those gains outweigh the added vulnerability & other negatives associated with them?

Am I right in thinking this?

 Smiley

I still don't understand why people cite "2MB blocks" as if that by itself is self justifying.

If the N64 having a 64 bit bus didn't make it superior to the original playstation, which was a 32 bit machine.

Should I assume 2MB blocks (without other supporting stats and data) will solve every problem bitcoin faces?

No, you are absolutely wrong, it is extremely important for bitcoin. That's why bitcoin needs segwit with larger block counts, although I like a bitcoin core like the current one. The number of blocks severely affects the speed of the transaction and its fee.

Absolutely correct, I agree with you. It's crazy when he says it does not matter. I think he is a fool, so silly.



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July 08, 2017, 12:37:05 PM
 #30

Block size isn't important.

What is important, is how many transactions per second 2MB and larger block sizes can yield.

Yeah it doesn't matter how large a truck is but how much can you stuff in it.
I might be wrong assuming this but I have the impression that no matter what you do a 7axle will be able to carry more popcorn than a van.

So no matter how you try to optimize the transaction size in the end the result swill be the same.
The 2mb will be able to carry twice as the 1mb.


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cryt3k
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July 08, 2017, 01:04:46 PM
 #31

Block size is also important for increasing transactions, which are stored in blocks. Speed of the bitcoin transactions will be based on the number blocks and block size.
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