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Author Topic: Good without a god  (Read 1936 times)
xingming
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July 08, 2017, 04:00:26 AM
 #1

Hey guys,

Religion (a belief in imaginary all powerful supernatural deities) has been the cause of more death and suffering than any one disease ever to inflict the human race. Wouldn't it be nice if we could start working on a cure for that.


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July 08, 2017, 09:49:19 AM
 #2

Hey guys,

Religion (a belief in imaginary all powerful supernatural deities) has been the cause of more death and suffering than any one disease ever to inflict the human race. Wouldn't it be nice if we could start working on a cure for that.

We each work on curing religion in our own way

I prefer to humiliate and berate religitards... it's kinda my thing

It's so easy to point out the flaws in their logic... it's like taking candy from a baby

I wonder how many religious people I've converted to atheism... I know I've shifted a few fence sitters, but it's difficult to penetrate the armor of a super religious fucktard like BADlogic... he just doesn't care about logic or making sense... guy just lives in his own little world and doesn't care if it makes sense or not (he'll troll this thread soon enough)


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July 08, 2017, 10:43:40 AM
 #3

I do not care who believes what, the main thing is that their faith and religion do not harm others. Every job has the right to choose what to believe, but you do not need to impose your choice on anyone.

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July 08, 2017, 10:59:43 AM
 #4

But religion also gives hopes and miracle that cant be explained scientifically, the religion that caused more people to suffering not a good religion, a good religion should gives peace minds and makes that person into a better man

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July 08, 2017, 11:27:26 AM
 #5

Religion constantly makes people something to limit. Oppressed and depressed people are easier to manage. I do not like about all religions. Without God to live better. I don't understand people who limit themselves in real life in order to go to heaven which doesn't exist.

.

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July 08, 2017, 12:15:02 PM
 #6

I do not care who believes what, the main thing is that their faith and religion do not harm others. Every job has the right to choose what to believe, but you do not need to impose your choice on anyone.

This. If they don't have an impact on you then why do you need to mind them?

The thing is. Whatever religion or belief, Christianity, Buddhism, Islam, atheism, theism, or whatever; If a certain person is bad, whatever belief he or she may have then he/she's going to be a bad person either way. Which is mostly in the case of religious extremists, whereas those people take things very literally not figuratively, which is the case when reading the Bible/Koran/whatever bible. There are good christians and bad christians, just like there are bad muslims and good muslims, also just like there are bad atheists and good atheists.

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July 08, 2017, 06:00:28 PM
 #7

I do not care who believes what, the main thing is that their faith and religion do not harm others. Every job has the right to choose what to believe, but you do not need to impose your choice on anyone.

Religion does harm others...

Religious people harm homosexuals daily (previously blacks, witches, etc)

Children die all the time because their religious parents refuse to take them to the doctor, and pray instead

Religion is harmful... period... I can name you harmful beliefs from any major world religion... they are all shitty

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July 08, 2017, 06:07:53 PM
 #8

I am constantly surprised by an opinion of some people who think that if you are an atheist or agnostic then you can't be a good person.
That you need God to be truly good, what a load of crap is that - it is totally opposite - how can you truly good when you are scared that good will punish you otherwise?
I want to be a good man because this is the only way for everyone else to live in peace and harmony, how hard it is to understand for religious fanatics?


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July 08, 2017, 06:20:35 PM
 #9

Hey guys,

Religion (a belief in imaginary all powerful supernatural deities) has been the cause of more death and suffering than any one disease ever to inflict the human race. Wouldn't it be nice if we could start working on a cure for that.


Not all religions have cause an much death and suffering throughout the ages, it's mostly the so called leaders who perpetuate the doctrines for their personal gains who are the responsible for the death and suffering.



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July 08, 2017, 07:17:36 PM
 #10

No, I don't agree with you, do you have evidence for this claim?

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July 08, 2017, 08:04:39 PM
 #11

I believe it is possible to do good things even if you do not believe in God, but these days Athiests do some very bad things which makes it quite clear when you look at believers compared to Atheists lots of believers are calm, cool and collected and mind their own business whereas Atheists do not know things so they need to always ask questions 100% of the time, when in reality there are already answers, but when you inform them their ego gets offended because they are the one asking the questions so when you try to teach them they realize subconsciously they are wrong and their ego needs to defend itself even though they are the ones who "question everything" in the first place. (if you need to question everything, it means you know nothing) Wink


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July 08, 2017, 08:40:28 PM
 #12

A mother lion doesn't attack her cub b/c that's not good. Eh?

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July 08, 2017, 09:39:25 PM
 #13

I believe it is possible to do good things even if you do not believe in God, but these days Athiests do some very bad things which makes it quite clear when you look at believers compared to Atheists lots of believers are calm, cool and collected and mind their own business whereas Atheists do not know things so they need to always ask questions 100% of the time, when in reality there are already answers, but when you inform them their ego gets offended because they are the one asking the questions so when you try to teach them they realize subconsciously they are wrong and their ego needs to defend itself even though they are the ones who "question everything" in the first place. (if you need to question everything, it means you know nothing) Wink


Religion(s) are super specialized in the in-forming business, and the continuation thereof is automatic (super cheap and easy) once successfully set in motion, even for as long as 2000+ years, crossing over from generation to generation, nation to nation, continent to continent.


                                                                                 in·form: give an essential or formative principle or quality to


Let me inform you that religion is wrong and let that sink in subconsciously for a bit. Hope your ego can handle it. Wink
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July 08, 2017, 10:01:32 PM
 #14

Hey guys,

Religion (a belief in imaginary all powerful supernatural deities) has been the cause of more death and suffering than any one disease ever to inflict the human race. Wouldn't it be nice if we could start working on a cure for that.

We each work on curing religion in our own way

I prefer to humiliate and berate religitards... it's kinda my thing

It's so easy to point out the flaws in their logic... it's like taking candy from a baby

I wonder how many religious people I've converted to atheism... I know I've shifted a few fence sitters, but it's difficult to penetrate the armor of a super religious fucktard like BADlogic... he just doesn't care about logic or making sense... guy just lives in his own little world and doesn't care if it makes sense or not (he'll troll this thread soon enough)



I think to be atheist is not the right way to go. Being agnostic is more logical than being atheist. Not believing in anything isn't exactly logic. The logic behind not believing in something is saying "prove it", that doesn't mean said thing is wrong or right because of proof or not in this case.

You can't exactly prove god does or doesn't exist, so to be firmly entrenched as a non-believer isn't logical, because your belief is based on nothing the same as everyone else's belief that god is real is based on nothing. Both of these are based on "nothing" because it is the human history it it based on, which isn't very long. I classify what we know as not much and probably we know nothing in the grand scheme of things.

We know that we exist, we know other things/planets/space exists. If we can exist there is an infinite and not infinite amount of things that can exist. There can be a god and there could be more gods or multiple universes, we don't know much about it all yet.

Agnostic I think is the way to go.



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chixka000
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July 08, 2017, 10:08:12 PM
 #15

Somehow you your selfs is creating your own cause of death you may realized it or not(eg. You have a bad eating habit) to that alone you already are killing your body. Regardless of your religion it is still your own mindset that will allow you to continue living or not. Tho on the part which you are killed by someone that is a whole different story


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July 08, 2017, 11:25:37 PM
 #16

Hey guys,

Religion (a belief in imaginary all powerful supernatural deities) has been the cause of more death and suffering than any one disease ever to inflict the human race. Wouldn't it be nice if we could start working on a cure for that.

Hi xingming actually I take the exact opposite position and would argue that Ethical Monotheism has done more than anything else to limit human death and suffering.

Here are some of the reasons I believe you are incorrect on this issue.

Religion and Progress

The greatest obstacle to human progress is not a technological hurdle but the evil inherent in ourselves. Humans have knowledge of good and evil and with this knowledge we often choose evil.

Collectivism exists because it employs aggregated force to limit evil especially the forms of evil linked to physical violence. Collectivism is expensive and inefficient but these inefficiencies are less than the cost of unrestrained individualism. Collectivism aggregates capital for the common good and we are far from outgrowing our need for this.

1.   Prehistory required the aggregation of human capital in the form of young warriors willing to fight to protect the tribe.
2.   The Agricultural Age required physical capital in the form of land ownership and a State to protect the land.
3.   The Industrial Age required the aggregation of monetary capital to fund large fixed capital investments and factories.

A farmer in the agricultural age could achieve some protection from theft and violence by arming himself. He could protect himself against a small hostile groups by forming defensive pacts with neighboring farmers. To defend against large scale organized violence, however, requires an army and thus a state.

In 1651 Thomas Hobbes argued for the merits of centralized monarchy. He believed that only absolute monarchy was capable of suppressing the evils of an unrestrained humanity. He described in graphic wording the consequences of a world without monarchy a condition he called the state of nature.

Quote
In such condition, there is no place for industry; because the fruit thereof is uncertain: and consequently no culture of the earth; no navigation, nor use of the commodities that may be imported by sea; no commodious building; no instruments of moving, and removing, such things as require much force; no knowledge of the face of the earth; no account of time; no arts; no letters; no society; and which is worst of all, continual fear, and danger of violent death; and the life of man, solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short. - Thomas Hobbes Leviathan

There may well have been a time in human history when the absolute monarchy of Hobbes was the best available government but Hobbes was writing at the end of that era. England had been transformed from a nation almost completely conquered by the Odin worshiping Great Heathen Army of 865 to a country that protected the legal rights of nobles in the Magna Carta of 1215 to a devoutly Christian nation that formalized the rights of judicial review for common citizens in the 1679 Habeas Corpus act. Hobbes had failed to appreciate the growth of moral capital that allowed for superior forms of government with increased freedom.

Our forefathers understood that it is morality and virtue that allows for freedom a lesson many today have forgotten.

Quote
"Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters." - Benjamin Franklin

“Is there no virtue among us? If there be not, we are in a wretched situation. No theoretical checks, no form of government, can render us secure. To suppose that any form of government will secure liberty or happiness without any virtue in the people, is a chimerical idea. If there be sufficient virtue and intelligence in the community, it will be exercised in the selection of these men; so that we do not depend upon their virtue, or put confidence in our rulers, but in the people who are to choose them.” - James Madison

“Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports.” - George Washington

In human interactions we often face a choice between cooperation (reaching a mutually beneficial exchange) and defection (advancement of ourselves to the detriment of our fellow man). The nation state, police, and laws suppress physical violence but do nothing to maintain the morality and virtue that sustain freedom. Collectivism limits some avenues of defection while opening entire new possibilities. New opportunities for defection arise along the entire economic spectrum. Everything from special interest lobbying, to disability scammers, and on a larger scale our entire fiat monetary system are essentially forms of defection allowing the few to profit at the expense of the many. Nation state collectivism has allowed for the creation of great civilizations and yet is entirely unsustainable in its current form.

Quote
"our Western civilization is on its way to perishing. It has many commendable qualities, most of which it has borrowed from the Christian ethic, but it lacks the element of moral wisdom that would give it permanence. Future historians will record that we of the twentieth century had intelligence enough to create a great civilization but not the moral wisdom to preserve it." - A.W. Tozer

The perishing of Western civilization, however, does not mean fragmentation and collapse. Indeed in this instance the opposite appears to be true and collapse looks set to drive us via economic fundamentals and debt into a single world government paradigm for reasons discussed at length elsewhere.

The evolution of the social contract is a progressive climb to higher potential energy systems with increased degrees of freedom. The state of nature begat tribalism. Tribalism grew into despotism. Despotism advanced into monarchy. Monarchies were replaced by republics. It is likely that in the near future republics will be consumed by world government, and perhaps someday world government will evolve into decentralized government.

Each iteration has a common theme for each advance increases the number of individuals able to engage in cooperative activity while lowering the number of individuals able to defect. Each iteration increases the sustainable degrees of freedom the system can support. Moral capital is the foundation that allows this progress to occur. For this reason ethical monotheism is the single greatest contributor to human progress from any source since human culture emerged from the stone ages.

Quote
"Nature is amoral. Nature knows nothing of good and evil. In nature there is one rule—survival of the fittest. There is no right, only might. If a creature is weak, kill it. Only human beings could have moral rules such as, "If it is weak, protect it." Only human beings can feel themselves ethically obligated to strangers.
...
Nature allows you to act naturally, i.e., do only what you want you to do, without moral restraints; God does not. Nature lets you act naturally - and it is as natural to kill, rape, and enslave as it is to love.
...
One of the vital elements in the ethical monotheist revolution was its repudiation of nature as god. The evolution of civilization and morality have depended in large part on desanctifying nature.
...
Civilizations that equated gods with nature—a characteristic of all primitive societies—or that worshipped nature did not evolve.
...
Words cannot convey the magnitude of the change wrought by the Bible's introduction into the world of a God who rules the universe morally." - Dennis Prager

The utopia of limited to no government would only be possible for a population constantly striving at all times to be moral. Such a utopia would require all individuals to always act cooperatively, honesty, and transparently. We lack the required moral fiber for anything like this to work at our current juncture in history.

See: Freedom and God for more.


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July 12, 2017, 06:28:06 AM
 #17

In the more secular countries, it's harmful effects can be limited by the law, although some still happen (like clergies abusing kids or children getting sick from not being vaccinated). It's almost always more harmful where it is the dominant force and can even halt progress (like the Church going after Galileo or Ottoman clerics basically preventing their empire from using printing press).

But religion also gives hopes and miracle that cant be explained scientifically, the religion that caused more people to suffering not a good religion, a good religion should gives peace minds and makes that person into a better man

If you for example had a false belief that it is actually easy to win lotteries and belief you are lucky and keep playing even if you ain't winning, did the false sense of hope did you any good? Life must be rooted in reality, those who deny it almost always end up disappointed.

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July 12, 2017, 06:47:30 AM
 #18

God can be a easy way to satisfy the curiosity of a fool and keep him in place.
We need law to control the extreme stupid who hurt others in the name of god.

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July 12, 2017, 09:50:05 AM
 #19

I strongly disagree with you mate, religion is a private matter which is between a person and his/her god. I don't think so any religion is causing harm to the people in society. Some acts by illiterate and misguided people can't define the religion which always teaches peace and humanity.



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July 12, 2017, 06:27:20 PM
 #20

Hey guys,

Religion (a belief in imaginary all powerful supernatural deities) has been the cause of more death and suffering than any one disease ever to inflict the human race. Wouldn't it be nice if we could start working on a cure for that.

We each work on curing religion in our own way

I prefer to humiliate and berate religitards... it's kinda my thing

It's so easy to point out the flaws in their logic... it's like taking candy from a baby

I wonder how many religious people I've converted to atheism... I know I've shifted a few fence sitters, but it's difficult to penetrate the armor of a super religious fucktard like BADlogic... he just doesn't care about logic or making sense... guy just lives in his own little world and doesn't care if it makes sense or not (he'll troll this thread soon enough)



I think to be atheist is not the right way to go. Being agnostic is more logical than being atheist. Not believing in anything isn't exactly logic. The logic behind not believing in something is saying "prove it", that doesn't mean said thing is wrong or right because of proof or not in this case.

You can't exactly prove god does or doesn't exist, so to be firmly entrenched as a non-believer isn't logical, because your belief is based on nothing the same as everyone else's belief that god is real is based on nothing. Both of these are based on "nothing" because it is the human history it it based on, which isn't very long. I classify what we know as not much and probably we know nothing in the grand scheme of things.

We know that we exist, we know other things/planets/space exists. If we can exist there is an infinite and not infinite amount of things that can exist. There can be a god and there could be more gods or multiple universes, we don't know much about it all yet.

Agnostic I think is the way to go.

First, Atheism and Agnostic are not mutually exclusive... you can be an Agnostic Atheist the same as you can be an Agnostic Christian...

Theism deals with belief... what you believe is true... Gnostic means knowledge, what you KNOW is true...

You can believe god exists or doesn't exist without "knowing"... having proof/evidence, etc

EVERYONE is AGNOSTIC... not a single person knows for CERTAIN whether or not gods exists... NOBODY (anyone who says they know for certain is a liar/conman)

Atheism does not mean you have evidence that no gods exist, only that you do not have an active belief in any gods...

If you don't believe in Allah, you are an Atheist with respect to Allah... you don't believe Allah exists

If you don't believe that any gods exist, you are an Atheist...

This doesn't mean I claim to know for certain that no gods exist, but I am not on the fence either... I wouldn't call myself agnostic, because there is WAY more evidence against the existence of any gods, than for the existence of any specific god

It simply comes down to weighing the evidence... facts like evolution supports atheism... there is nothing beyond the bible to support christianity... nothing at all

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