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Author Topic: Bitcoin is money, everything else is credit.  (Read 2021 times)
Afrem
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July 12, 2017, 01:35:06 PM
 #21

Traditional money has a face value. It applies to fiat money as well as fiduciary money. Bitcoin does not have a face value. Its value depends on demand and supply (like shares or other investments). At the same time bitcoin can be used as a payment instrument.

I think that is the main advantage of bitcoin: it comprises features of both investments and money. Thanks to that, the bitcoin eliminates the division between money and investments and makes investing available for everyone for every level of society.
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July 12, 2017, 02:01:05 PM
 #22

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Fiat is credit. Only commodities like gold and Bitcoin can be considered monies
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It was J.P. Morgan that said "Gold is money, everything else is credit"

So true but unfortunately when the majority of the population will open their eyes and see it, it will be already too late for tem. The 2008 crisis is nothing compared to what will happen, and it will. Maybe in 5 years, maybe in 20 years but don't worry, the finacial collapse will happen.
By the way, have you ever watched the documentary "Money as debt"? It's an animated video explaining how the monetary systems work with banking https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money_as_Debt You can find with no problem on Youtube

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July 12, 2017, 02:04:24 PM
 #23

If you really think about it, BTC is nothing but a ledger with the record of all the inputs and outputs. If you think about it that way you wouldnt think of it as money. We dont even have the coins in our wallets. Its all right there in the ledger stored as UTXOs. If the world finds some value in that and they are willing to pay for over $2000 per 1 BTC, then ok.



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July 12, 2017, 02:27:15 PM
 #24

If you really think about it, BTC is nothing but a ledger with the record of all the inputs and outputs. If you think about it that way you wouldnt think of it as money. We dont even have the coins in our wallets. Its all right there in the ledger stored as UTXOs. If the world finds some value in that and they are willing to pay for over $2000 per 1 BTC, then ok.
Why are you so surprised? If bitcoin is used simply to invest the money I would have to maintain your sarcasm, but there are many people who perform some work and receive payment in bitcoins. This is already the emergence of the bitcoin economy, and this is serious.

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July 12, 2017, 04:23:39 PM
 #25

i don't agree with your defaltionary definition about, bitcoin, it's not the price of the good that falls, it's bitcoin that increase and have more power in purchase

for fiat can be seen in both case, inflationary because they lose value due to infinite printing, which make their coin have less and less value over time, or because the goods increase in price

But it terms of the utility that currency provides, which is the power to purchase things, Bitcoin creates the affect that every day goods and services become more affordable. This illusion/affect becomes amplified when the value of Bitcoin to fiat increases so drastically in a short amount of time.

We've seen Bitcoin increase 125% this year alone, the prices of goods and services has gone up maybe 2% over the same amount of time (likely less).

Your point isn't lost, it's the value of Bitcoin that's going up that's driving the affect the OP is speaking of, but the OP's point is fair when we consider what Bitcoin should/could mean to the "average guy" just trying to make his way through life without too much debt. You know, someone who couldn't care less about the technology elements or the government control of money.

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July 12, 2017, 04:29:50 PM
 #26

Somehow it makes sense but there is still a dent with it being called as money.
Can it buy something? I mean purchasing at a grocery, let us say Walmart?
People tend to look at money if it can be used to buy something or to trade it for an object or a necessity.
If it cannot be proven like that then what else would they see bitcoin as?

Just an investment. Why? It is just stucked in the wallet. Wallets which they see like banks who store money.

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July 12, 2017, 05:05:28 PM
 #27

Nothing gets on my nerves more than hearing "Bitcoin is an investment".

Bitcoin is not an investment, Bitcoin is money. In fact, everything other than gold and Bitcoin is simply credit.

Money is supposed to enrich, not impoverish; yet, inflationary credit (fiat) has done nothing but robbed the saver, the worker, and the retiree of his/her purchasing power while enriching Wall Street and asset holders.

Bitcoin, unlike credit, is not inflationary, but deflationary. The price of Bitcoin doesn't rise, the cost of goods relative to Bitcoin falls.

As long as our monetary system is not rooted in private property ethic, that is, banks are allowed to lend "money" they do not have (conjured from thin air), the economic boom and bust cycle will only continue to grow in severity.

Anyone who has read either Ludwig Von Mises or Rothbard's work is familiar with the concept (for more on why Bitcoin is money, and everything else is credit, I highly recommend What has government done to our money? by Rothbard, available here for free: https://mises.org/library/what-has-government-done-our-money).

People aren't investing in Bitcoin persay, but rather, riding off the enriching effects of price deflation, which has existed in the US before the creation of the Federal Reserve.

Bitcoin has all the properties of money, and in my humble opinion, is a better monetary unit than gold.

Thoughts? What do you see Bitcoin as?

Tzadik



You can call bitcoin money, which is not wrong, but you can also call bitcoin an investment, it's like a stock, its value is constantly changing, the use of bitcoin is the same. Like investments and stocks, you always face risks.

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July 12, 2017, 06:11:34 PM
 #28

Traditional money has a face value. It applies to fiat money as well as fiduciary money. Bitcoin does not have a face value. Its value depends on demand and supply (like shares or other investments). At the same time bitcoin can be used as a payment instrument.

I think that is the main advantage of bitcoin: it comprises features of both investments and money. Thanks to that, the bitcoin eliminates the division between money and investments and makes investing available for everyone for every level of society.

Gold is traditional money. Gold has no face value.
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July 12, 2017, 08:45:17 PM
 #29

Nothing gets on my nerves more than hearing "Bitcoin is an investment".

Bitcoin is not an investment, Bitcoin is money. In fact, everything other than gold and Bitcoin is simply credit.

Money is supposed to enrich, not impoverish; yet, inflationary credit (fiat) has done nothing but robbed the saver, the worker, and the retiree of his/her purchasing power while enriching Wall Street and asset holders.

Bitcoin, unlike credit, is not inflationary, but deflationary. The price of Bitcoin doesn't rise, the cost of goods relative to Bitcoin falls.


As long as our monetary system is not rooted in private property ethic, that is, banks are allowed to lend "money" they do not have (conjured from thin air), the economic boom and bust cycle will only continue to grow in severity.

Anyone who has read either Ludwig Von Mises or Rothbard's work is familiar with the concept (for more on why Bitcoin is money, and everything else is credit, I highly recommend What has government done to our money? by Rothbard, available here for free: https://mises.org/library/what-has-government-done-our-money).

People aren't investing in Bitcoin persay, but rather, riding off the enriching effects of price deflation, which has existed in the US before the creation of the Federal Reserve.

Bitcoin has all the properties of money, and in my humble opinion, is a better monetary unit than gold.

Thoughts? What do you see Bitcoin as?

Tzadik



I agree with some of the submissions you have given except the bolded part which I disagree with and I am sure quite a number of people will also agree with me on that position, however, I am open to further explanation because we have seen the price of bitcoin in relation to dollar go up or down in a matter of hours while the price of one shirt in the store or price of burger remains the same within this same period which means at a point in time, my 0.01btc could be enough to get me a shirt, while the next minute, I might not be able to afford that same shirt with my 0.01btc which negates your position at the bolded part above.

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July 12, 2017, 09:04:11 PM
 #30

I see Bitcoin as a monetary unit that is best utilized as an investment. Yes, you can buy things with it, but the fee's make it impractical for that use more times than not.

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July 12, 2017, 10:19:29 PM
 #31

Gold is traditional money. Gold has no face value.

In the world of fiat money, gold has no face value and gold is not a payment method too. Now gold is just an investment.

Before 1971, the dollar was pegged to gold. Price of gold was $35 per ounce. So, gold price didn't float.

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July 12, 2017, 10:54:41 PM
 #32

I can agree with this seeing as how leveraged our government is right now and they are doing all they can to sell bonds so interest rates will probably go up which is very detrimental to the economy. All this started because we took advantage of the financial system and that our currency was not minted.
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July 13, 2017, 05:08:59 AM
 #33

It is a investment if it was actual money why isn't it accepted anywhere and same for gold it can used everywhere and only at particular places only we can use it. Gold is mined so is bitcoin while money can't be mined only printed so therefore gold and bitcoin have similar features

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July 13, 2017, 05:18:14 AM
 #34

Bitcoin is more than money because it has a different value with the real money who is subject for inflation.
Also with the limited supply it could make us rich someday if the price will continue to rise, with bitcoin as my holdings I can ensure no one will use or steal it as long as I will be able to keep it securely.

Putting your money in the bank will give the bankers the opportunity to spend it for their benefits, we were given interest but not enough for the value we save but with bitcoin we can double our money even in a short period of time.

The government when using the current fiat, they can take credit which would affect our economic status but with bitcoin it is only solely based on supply and demand which gives the holders the best benefits when demand will increase.

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July 13, 2017, 05:20:47 AM
 #35

Don't see bitcoin as mighty like you (yet), it's a different system that indeed has several advantages. But i still consider gold better.
For now on bitcoin is not yet special to all people but to those who knows it only, what I mean is you consider gold as better now than bitcoin because bitcoin are not yet already expose to everybody but the thing is when the bitcoin already expose and known to everyone then I probably say that bitcoin is better than gold. However, Bitcoin is money not an investment. Bitcoin are only digital coin but it is already consider as money that can be converted into cash.

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July 13, 2017, 06:38:55 AM
 #36

Don't see bitcoin as mighty like you (yet), it's a different system that indeed has several advantages. But i still consider gold better.
For now on bitcoin is not yet special to all people but to those who knows it only, what I mean is you consider gold as better now than bitcoin because bitcoin are not yet already expose to everybody but the thing is when the bitcoin already expose and known to everyone then I probably say that bitcoin is better than gold. However, Bitcoin is money not an investment. Bitcoin are only digital coin but it is already consider as money that can be converted into cash.
Bitcoin is a good investment but a very risky investment compared to gold and anyone who choose to invest bitcoin over gold are risk takers and thinking that their investment will bring good return in the future. We are investing a technology here that could help change the world's financial system and it's really big so if success will happen we will be rewarded with big return.

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July 13, 2017, 06:47:02 AM
 #37

Since all fiat is a claim on something that doesn't exist, it is credit.

Fiat is not a claim on something that doesn't exist, but rather a reflection of wealth of a society. The wealthier a society (ie. factories built, products sold, services rendered) the more fiat there ought to exist to reflect this growth. Of course there's a lot that can go wrong along the way (hyperinflation, etc), but it's important to keep in mind that at its core fiat is rooted in something, ie. wealth.

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July 13, 2017, 06:50:17 AM
 #38

Well, I agree with some of your points here. Though I must admit I am not an economic junkie so there are some terms I could not fully grasp on. Nevertheless, basically I don't care if Bitcoin is money or not since I can use it to buy anything I want and I can easily convert it to my country's fiat money with no problem at all.

I am speaking here as an ordinary guy whose understanding about Bitcoin is very basic. All I know is that Bitcoin has appreciated in value greatly vis-a-vis fiat money since I was introduced into it a year ago. And I am happy for that. I do expect it to rise some more after the August 1 event and I hope there would be no disastrous forking to occur.

Bitcoin for me represent a revolution in the financial world which can soon affect many facets of our lives. Soon it can be reaching mainstream and that would be the time when Bitcoin can start to reach its intended and full potential.

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July 13, 2017, 06:57:29 AM
 #39

Exactly, “money ought to make people rich and properious and not poverty and debt” I think people have been subconsciously programme to believe that bitcoin is and investment but we can really see that bitcoin is money as it makes people rich why our current fiat system makes people poor and in debt.


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July 13, 2017, 07:57:25 AM
 #40

Agree, it is something that posses actual value and I am not sure how many of us are aware of the fact that paper currency other than (1 unit bill) is not the money but a promise by the government of that country to pay that sum of amount to the bearer of the bill. Whereas Bitcoin gives us complete freedom to acquire, hold and spend the amount that we wish to spend and that too without permission or interference of the third party.

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