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Author Topic: Bitcoin is money, everything else is credit.  (Read 2021 times)
Tzadik
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July 11, 2017, 05:16:01 PM
 #1

Nothing gets on my nerves more than hearing "Bitcoin is an investment".

Bitcoin is not an investment, Bitcoin is money. In fact, everything other than gold and Bitcoin is simply credit.

Money is supposed to enrich, not impoverish; yet, inflationary credit (fiat) has done nothing but robbed the saver, the worker, and the retiree of his/her purchasing power while enriching Wall Street and asset holders.

Bitcoin, unlike credit, is not inflationary, but deflationary. The price of Bitcoin doesn't rise, the cost of goods relative to Bitcoin falls.

As long as our monetary system is not rooted in private property ethic, that is, banks are allowed to lend "money" they do not have (conjured from thin air), the economic boom and bust cycle will only continue to grow in severity.

Anyone who has read either Ludwig Von Mises or Rothbard's work is familiar with the concept (for more on why Bitcoin is money, and everything else is credit, I highly recommend What has government done to our money? by Rothbard, available here for free: https://mises.org/library/what-has-government-done-our-money).

People aren't investing in Bitcoin persay, but rather, riding off the enriching effects of price deflation, which has existed in the US before the creation of the Federal Reserve.

Bitcoin has all the properties of money, and in my humble opinion, is a better monetary unit than gold.

Thoughts? What do you see Bitcoin as?

Tzadik

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July 11, 2017, 05:28:48 PM
 #2

If you want to learn more about the BTC and why it is such a massive revolution in the way we consider what money is, I recommend you the following links :


I see BTC as a monetary systm owned and managed by the people who trust it instead our fiat monetray systems based in debt and the power of banks/wallstreet



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HabBear
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July 11, 2017, 07:24:11 PM
 #3

Nothing gets on my nerves more than hearing "Bitcoin is an investment".

Bitcoin is not an investment, Bitcoin is money. In fact, everything other than gold and Bitcoin is simply credit.

Money is supposed to enrich, not impoverish; yet, inflationary credit (fiat) has done nothing but robbed the saver, the worker, and the retiree of his/her purchasing power while enriching Wall Street and asset holders.

I agree with your point of view. I disagree with your use of "credit". You're not using that word in way that's consistent with its definition.

"Credit" does not mean inflationary (that's not part of the definition at all). Credit means lending. So your claim that owning or using fiat is owning or using credit is not true.

The definition of Credit in the monetary usage is: the ascription or acknowledgment of something as due or properly attributable to a person, institution, etc.:

Bitcoin is money. Everything else is not credit.

Now more to your point, if we were to refer to Bitcoin (not as an investment but) as a currency that increases spending power over time we may tap into the intrigue of a whole new demographic of future adopters.

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July 11, 2017, 07:25:23 PM
 #4

Don't see bitcoin as mighty like you (yet), it's a different system that indeed has several advantages. But i still consider gold better.
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July 11, 2017, 07:36:12 PM
 #5

Don't see bitcoin as mighty like you (yet), it's a different system that indeed has several advantages. But i still consider gold better.

Maybe with the current situation, high tx fees and slow confirmation time doesn't look like that bitcoin will take over the monetary system. But for me, even if bitcoin becomes the giant it can be, it still can't totally eliminate fiat but will go hand and hand with it. Gold is better as store of value and hedge against a worldwide crisis.

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July 11, 2017, 07:59:01 PM
 #6

Good vid, thanks for sharing, especially narrator is strong point in this doc.
They dont tell absolute truth about fee cost though Smiley so it is a little biased at least in this aspect.
Very good sound design, a little weird transition effects (to artsy), talking heads have no or close to none make-up (that's a plus, if you ask me).
Overall score for a documentary feature 6.3/10 ( IMO of course )
As to the title of this thread I would say Bitcoin is money everything else is debt :/

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July 11, 2017, 10:17:26 PM
 #7

Nothing gets on my nerves more than hearing "Bitcoin is an investment".

Bitcoin is not an investment, Bitcoin is money. In fact, everything other than gold and Bitcoin is simply credit.

Money is supposed to enrich, not impoverish; yet, inflationary credit (fiat) has done nothing but robbed the saver, the worker, and the retiree of his/her purchasing power while enriching Wall Street and asset holders.

Bitcoin, unlike credit, is not inflationary, but deflationary. The price of Bitcoin doesn't rise, the cost of goods relative to Bitcoin falls.

As long as our monetary system is not rooted in private property ethic, that is, banks are allowed to lend "money" they do not have (conjured from thin air), the economic boom and bust cycle will only continue to grow in severity.

Anyone who has read either Ludwig Von Mises or Rothbard's work is familiar with the concept (for more on why Bitcoin is money, and everything else is credit, I highly recommend What has government done to our money? by Rothbard, available here for free: https://mises.org/library/what-has-government-done-our-money).

People aren't investing in Bitcoin persay, but rather, riding off the enriching effects of price deflation, which has existed in the US before the creation of the Federal Reserve.

Bitcoin has all the properties of money, and in my humble opinion, is a better monetary unit than gold.

Thoughts? What do you see Bitcoin as?

Tzadik



Bitcoin at its current state has several disadvantages that make it a very bad form of money - transaction fees make small transactions (below $200-$100) very expensive; volatility makes it risky to hold and receive as a payment; confirmation time can also be an issue, as sometimes instant transactions are required for business. All these factors currently outweigh potential benefits of Bitcoin for most users, so people still haven't started mass adoptions, despite Bitcoin being here for 8 years already.

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July 12, 2017, 12:37:07 AM
 #8

Don't see bitcoin as mighty like you (yet), it's a different system that indeed has several advantages. But i still consider gold better.

This is something we should talk about!

What is it about gold that you still consider better than Bitcoin? What if the appreciation we've seen this year occurred every year? Or let's just say that Bitcoin gains 25% price growth each year, what would that do to change your mind?

We've seen a 125% gain thus far this year...so the price could stay this way for 5 years and we'd still be able to claim 25% growth year over year. That's more than we've seen with gold historically.

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July 12, 2017, 01:19:03 AM
 #9

You are looking Bitcoin from a perspective omitting the presence and influence of fiat at people's life.

No one can live without fiat these days, Bitcoin can't buy everything, so Bitcoin is still an investment and Bitcoin still rises its price. If we were in a Bitcoin's utopian society I would agree 100% with you, but we aren't.

For now Bitcoin is much more rentable than gold, but with so many possible changes in Bitcoin system, it's a unpredictable currency, gold is still more stable and guaranteed as it's a physical resource and not a virtual one.

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July 12, 2017, 01:58:09 AM
 #10

Nothing gets on my nerves more than hearing "Bitcoin is an investment".

Bitcoin is not an investment, Bitcoin is money. In fact, everything other than gold and Bitcoin is simply credit.

Money is supposed to enrich, not impoverish; yet, inflationary credit (fiat) has done nothing but robbed the saver, the worker, and the retiree of his/her purchasing power while enriching Wall Street and asset holders.

Bitcoin, unlike credit, is not inflationary, but deflationary. The price of Bitcoin doesn't rise, the cost of goods relative to Bitcoin falls.

As long as our monetary system is not rooted in private property ethic, that is, banks are allowed to lend "money" they do not have (conjured from thin air), the economic boom and bust cycle will only continue to grow in severity.

Anyone who has read either Ludwig Von Mises or Rothbard's work is familiar with the concept (for more on why Bitcoin is money, and everything else is credit, I highly recommend What has government done to our money? by Rothbard, available here for free: https://mises.org/library/what-has-government-done-our-money).

People aren't investing in Bitcoin persay, but rather, riding off the enriching effects of price deflation, which has existed in the US before the creation of the Federal Reserve.

Bitcoin has all the properties of money, and in my humble opinion, is a better monetary unit than gold.

Thoughts? What do you see Bitcoin as?

Tzadik



Bitcoin at its current state has several disadvantages that make it a very bad form of money - transaction fees make small transactions (below $200-$100) very expensive; volatility makes it risky to hold and receive as a payment; confirmation time can also be an issue, as sometimes instant transactions are required for business. All these factors currently outweigh potential benefits of Bitcoin for most users, so people still haven't started mass adoptions, despite Bitcoin being here for 8 years already.

100% correct. I hate to admit it, but something must be done about transaction fees to stop this out of control, outrageous fee situation.

There is absolutely no way Bitcoin will become fully mainstream before this problem is solved. I think it will be the next thing we talk about after August 1st and Segwit is done with.
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July 12, 2017, 04:08:08 AM
 #11

Bitcoin is not money because it can not really buy everything. As long as I know real world money can buy any dam thing. Don’t answer me that bitcoin is available everywhere and can many stuff around, No it can’t, and bitcoin is actually a commodity and it can traded for money. Thats what I think folks. I wish it will turn into money form soon. I would be more than happy sir!





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July 12, 2017, 04:27:20 AM
 #12

Bitcoin is not money because it can not really buy everything. As long as I know real world money can buy any dam thing. Don’t answer me that bitcoin is available everywhere and can many stuff around, No it can’t, and bitcoin is actually a commodity and it can traded for money. Thats what I think folks. I wish it will turn into money form soon. I would be more than happy sir!

In 2014, Warren Buffett had said: "Bitcoin and Cryptocurrency can't become to a precious thing like gold, Bitcoin just a support tools for help make transaction between people in country to other country, useful, fast and safe"

=> We can know from him: Bitcoin just is a digital cash, can't replace FIAT or Gold


     
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July 12, 2017, 05:28:05 AM
 #13

i think even the creator never think that bitcoin will rise like these days, long way before popular it's only used for anonym/untraceble transaction with advantage for helping people with fast transaction, but that day just changed after it enters the market, now it become another "market games", unstable curency, and high fees.

This is just my opinion for now, maybe change in the future  Grin
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July 12, 2017, 09:24:23 AM
 #14

i think even the creator never think that bitcoin will rise like these days, long way before popular it's only used for anonym/untraceble transaction with advantage for helping people with fast transaction, but that day just changed after it enters the market, now it become another "market games", unstable curency, and high fees.

This is just my opinion for now, maybe change in the future  Grin

I think you're correct in the point where bitcoin is money but I can't see the logic where everything else is credit. Yes the value of gold will always be there and bitcoin also but we can't infer the same of gold and bitcoin as the stocks of bitcoin sometimes drops. But I do agree in a way that bitcoin is koney now it is used more and kore as the days go by and in the future who knows.

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Amph
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Zabercoin – An Asset Backed Cryptocurrency


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July 12, 2017, 09:29:05 AM
 #15

i don't agree with your defaltionary definition about bitcoin, it's not the price of the goods that falls, it's bitcoin that increase and have more power in purchase

for fiat can be seen in both case, inflationary because they lose value due to infinite printing, which make their coin have less and less value over time, or because the goods increase in price

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Abricotier
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July 12, 2017, 09:43:46 AM
 #16

Very great post, I bookmarked it for future purpose !
Hipster999
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July 12, 2017, 10:18:44 AM
 #17

Bitcoin is certainly a very good tool for earning and currency, but gold is still better for the reason that it still exists in the real world. Bitcoin is not always convenient for use because of the high commission, so ordinary money must exist in parallel, this is complementary to each other.

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merchantofzeny
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I'm honest, it's the world that's awful


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July 12, 2017, 11:35:45 AM
 #18

We've seen a 125% gain thus far this year...so the price could stay this way for 5 years and we'd still be able to claim 25% growth year over year. That's more than we've seen with gold historically.

The only thing I'd see attractive in gold is that it has never gone out of style. People has always valued it. I see gold more as a store of value rather than a instrument for growth. Not as convenient as bitcoin but if you have enough money to invest in multiple stuff, it probably wouldn't hurt to have a bit of AU.

i don't agree with your defaltionary definition about, bitcoin, it's not the price of the good that falls, it's bitcoin that increase and have more power in purchase

for fiat can be seen in both case, inflationary because they lose value due to infinite printing, which make their coin have less and less value over time, or because the goods increase in price

And the ever increasing value is not much of a problem for bitcoin because of the satoshi system. You don't see fiat with 8 trailing decimals units.

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July 12, 2017, 11:50:31 AM
 #19

Don't see bitcoin as mighty like you (yet), it's a different system that indeed has several advantages. But i still consider gold better.

Unlike gold, which is material, exists in society and carries great value through its beauty. Bitcoin is a product of technology, it is a digital product, its power and value are completely dependent on human beliefs for it.

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Tzadik
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July 12, 2017, 01:06:30 PM
 #20


I agree with your point of view. I disagree with your use of "credit". You're not using that word in way that's consistent with its definition.

"Credit" does not mean inflationary (that's not part of the definition at all). Credit means lending. So your claim that owning or using fiat is owning or using credit is not true.

The definition of Credit in the monetary usage is: the ascription or acknowledgment of something as due or properly attributable to a person, institution, etc.:

Bitcoin is money. Everything else is not credit.

Now more to your point, if we were to refer to Bitcoin (not as an investment but) as a currency that increases spending power over time we may tap into the intrigue of a whole new demographic of future adopters.

Fiat is credit. Only commodities like gold and Bitcoin can be considered monies.

To understand why that is the case, you have to understand the origins of money and banking.

Historically, “banking” was rooted in bailment – the practice of storing someone else’s goods. The depositor would leave his items for safe keeping with the warehouse and have a ticket issued. This ticket pledged that his article would be redeemable on demand. After the receipt-holder presented his ticket and paid a storage fee, the warehouse would return his item.

Some goods, however, are relatively homogenous and indistinguishable. Gold is homogenous. An individual storing 100 ounces of gold at a warehouse for safe keeping does not care whether the exact same ounces of gold he particularly left with the warehouseman are redeemed; he just needs 100 ounces of gold back.

Unfortunately, this lack of caring enables the warehouseman embezzle the items/funds entrusted with him. The warehouseman is a cunning and calculating figure. Since he knows not all his customers will demand their gold at the same time, he may maneuver within a margin, profiting off his customer’s property. At any given time, he may only have 90% of the claims he issued available for redemption; at other times, he may have 50%, 40%, 30%, 10%, or even 0%.

The warehouseman may choose to live it up – selling his customer’s gold and spending the money on yachts, women, or booze. However, if he is caught violating their trust, his customers will immediately demand their grain back; thus, running him out of business. The warehouseman can engage in another, less obvious, form of fraud and deception. Rather than cashing-in his customer’s gold, he can instead issue fake warehouse receipts. Warehouse receipts backed by nothing but identical to the genuine receipts in all aspects. He can then lend these receipts out to borrowers, collecting interest on claims to property he never had.

Since all fiat is a claim on something that doesn't exist, it is credit.

It was J.P. Morgan that said "Gold is money, everything else is credit".
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