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Author Topic: Free Market Trading & pricing for India [Split topic]  (Read 1370 times)
Benson Samuel
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May 10, 2013, 06:51:46 AM
 #1

I have split the thread at https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=199432.0 as this deviates from the purpose of that thread.

Hello Guys,

I have $ 500 USD worth BTC (roughly about 5 BTC) currently available in my account at the exchange that i'm not actively using in my day-to-day trading.
Do let me know if anyone wants to buy.

MTGOX (last price) + 10%

Payment Method : Accept Cash Deposit / NEFT to my Indian Bank account.

I have 4 BTC still available.
Price : MTGOX (last price) + 10%
I 'll pay you 4,500/- each, purchase  all,  instant  cash  deposit. and any escrow  you like  as long  at it is a prominent  member .  i dont  peg  the  rates to any exchange.  start the negotiations.

I can tell you 2 things.
1. I m first in line
2. He wont sell at that rate ($85 ??)

Hey! just  setting some bidding on the  line. the  indian  community  has  to  get  off pegging  the  bitcoin to  foreign  exchanges.  let  a  free market force  determine  prices.  that is  much better and   gets  rid of monopoly.   and stop using  the $ use you national  currency to bid.  

I  raise  my  bid  to  5000/-
 any  sell  want  to sell  at that rate  can  join  in too.  :-)

Ps-  just  because there is   supply  problem in  India  does not  bean  prices  can be  quoted  as  pegged+10% .  It  creates  an un favorable  market  demand  and drives  away potential  future  users.

If sellers  dont  agree with this   concept, i am  sorry i will push free market  rates  in the indian  community much  harder.  


I agree with the concept of pegging BTC to INR, but we also need to take the factor of scarcity into consideration.

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May 10, 2013, 07:11:24 AM
 #2

Hello Guys,

I have $ 500 USD worth BTC (roughly about 5 BTC) currently available in my account at the exchange that i'm not actively using in my day-to-day trading.
Do let me know if anyone wants to buy.

MTGOX (last price) + 10%

Payment Method : Accept Cash Deposit / NEFT to my Indian Bank account.

I have 4 BTC still available.
Price : MTGOX (last price) + 10%
I 'll pay you 4,500/- each, purchase  all,  instant  cash  deposit. and any escrow  you like  as long  at it is a prominent  member .  i dont  peg  the  rates to any exchange.  start the negotiations.

I can tell you 2 things.
1. I m first in line
2. He wont sell at that rate ($85 ??)

Hey! just  setting some bidding on the  line. the  indian  community  has  to  get  off pegging  the  bitcoin to  foreign  exchanges.  let  a  free market force  determine  prices.  that is  much better and   gets  rid of monopoly.   and stop using  the $ use you national  currency to bid. 

I  raise  my  bid  to  5000/-
 any  sell  want  to sell  at that rate  can  join  in too.  :-)

Ps-  just  because there is   supply  problem in  India  does not  bean  prices  can be  quoted  as  pegged+10% .  It  creates  an un favorable  market  demand  and drives  away potential  future  users.

If sellers  dont  agree with this   concept, i am  sorry i will push free market  rates  in the indian  community much  harder.   


I agree with the concept of pegging BTC to INR, but we also need to take the factor of scarcity into consideration.

An that is the  reason  why  a  free  market  system of  bids  setting  prices,  is   far  more  better.  an  economical  system  would  collapse  if  scarcity drives  a monopolistic system of  rates. No one in india  would want to  buy  bitcoins  and no one   would  see any  use for it.   so  in  better terms, it  would be  dead in the  water  before  it  starts. 

Whats  happening  is  basically  every one  holds their  sell  till GOX  has a  high price and then  add another 10% to their  sale. which in its self  becomes  monopolistic, because  sale is  determined by one  exchange  being  at a high  price.   

A  free  market  rates  would be  determined by  supply and demand .  that the  demand is like in India  can be  gauged  properly   with this  system. 
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May 10, 2013, 03:35:11 PM
 #3

Hello Guys,

I have $ 500 USD worth BTC (roughly about 5 BTC) currently available in my account at the exchange that i'm not actively using in my day-to-day trading.
Do let me know if anyone wants to buy.

MTGOX (last price) + 10%

Payment Method : Accept Cash Deposit / NEFT to my Indian Bank account.

I have 4 BTC still available.
Price : MTGOX (last price) + 10%
I 'll pay you 4,500/- each, purchase  all,  instant  cash  deposit. and any escrow  you like  as long  at it is a prominent  member .  i dont  peg  the  rates to any exchange.  start the negotiations.

I can tell you 2 things.
1. I m first in line
2. He wont sell at that rate ($85 ??)

Hey! just  setting some bidding on the  line. the  indian  community  has  to  get  off pegging  the  bitcoin to  foreign  exchanges.  let  a  free market force  determine  prices.  that is  much better and   gets  rid of monopoly.   and stop using  the $ use you national  currency to bid. 

I  raise  my  bid  to  5000/-
 any  sell  want  to sell  at that rate  can  join  in too.  :-)

Ps-  just  because there is   supply  problem in  India  does not  bean  prices  can be  quoted  as  pegged+10% .  It  creates  an un favorable  market  demand  and drives  away potential  future  users.

If sellers  dont  agree with this   concept, i am  sorry i will push free market  rates  in the indian  community much  harder.   


I agree with the concept of pegging BTC to INR, but we also need to take the factor of scarcity into consideration.

An that is the  reason  why  a  free  market  system of  bids  setting  prices,  is   far  more  better.  an  economical  system  would  collapse  if  scarcity drives  a monopolistic system of  rates. No one in india  would want to  buy  bitcoins  and no one   would  see any  use for it.   so  in  better terms, it  would be  dead in the  water  before  it  starts. 

Whats  happening  is  basically  every one  holds their  sell  till GOX  has a  high price and then  add another 10% to their  sale. which in its self  becomes  monopolistic, because  sale is  determined by one  exchange  being  at a high  price.   

A  free  market  rates  would be  determined by  supply and demand .  that the  demand is like in India  can be  gauged  properly   with this  system. 


I completely agree with you subvolatil. We need a free market system in India that is independent of any exchange. However, i wanted you to note that your entire basis of the pricing is flawed. The concept that you are talking would work very well where buying of virtual currency is as easy as selling it like in USA, Canada and Europe. If i go to someone here and ask for a markup of 10%, then they will kick me in the face. Because people here can buy 1 btc for mtgox, campbx or any other exchange price and the transaction charges as less as 50 cents per transaction.
However, the case in India is completely different unless the traders in India are self sufficient by mining the requirements themselves within India. In that case, yes the concept that you are proposing would definitely work.

Moreover, when i say 10% markup, there are inherent costs involved in carrying out the transaction and 10% is not completely my profit.
Just to give you an idea, the cheapest and reliable funding method usually used by most USA residents Dwolla which charges $ 0.25 to fund mtgox (through my bank account) cannot be used to fund the bitcoins which i intend to sell in India because, at the end of the year, UNCLE SAM (US Federal Tax dept) comes back to me and says "Sir, you have transferred 10X amount of USD to MTGOX account, however you have received only 5X amount of USD in return. What happened to the rest of 5X amount.? ". So i should have a convincing explanation with paper trial. I cannot even claim that i lost them during trading because, MTGOX abides by the US, Canada and European AML laws. So i should choose cash deposit method which itself costs me about 4 - 5%.

Secondly, when i receive the funds through Bank transfer in India, i should get it back here to keep the money rolling for my business. Every bank here charges about 3 - 4 USD for using their ATM to withdraw using a International Indian Debit card. This fee is apart from the fee of Rs 125 INR or Rs 150.00 INR that will be charged by my bank in India.

Its not over yet. Indian Banks give you a very shitty exchange rate when you use their debit card to withdraw funds abroad. Usually Rs 0.50 less than any foreign exchange and sometimes even upto Rs 1.00 less per USD. That is a risk am taking.

I agree, there might be some other ways to route money from India to USA, but since the money is coming from India, it is very risky and it might end up being treated as t e r r 0 r 1 s t funding. Trust me, i work in the field of cyber intelligence and pretty much know what all the f e d s track.

After all those fees, am left with 2 -3 % per bitcoin.  I think that is a fair enough margin in any business for all the risk and pains that am taking to keep me motivated to come back the next day and keep me going.

Am not justifying anyone and i don't need to infact, am just letting you know that your perceived notion of 10% profit is wrong. And moreover, with the recent happenings and yesterday's news announcement, i don't think many people from USA / Canada (and Europe shortly) will consider trading of bitcoins as priority anymore to make money.
Am sure that you are aware that many retail websites in USA and Canada have started accepting bitcoins as payment. Yesterday's news was huge. A gift card company called GYFT started accepting bitcoin through bitpay (am sure bitpay uses mtgox exchange rate). They sell gift cards of almost every company in USA including Amazon, CVS pharmacy, Target, Walmart, Hollister, American Eagle, restaurants, flight and travel websites. That is turning my bitcoins to real cash legitemitely without the hassles of trading. Those shops are pretty much everywhere i shop. And the fee is just 0.89%. Infact i will end up paying more if i buy stuff from same places using my credit card. Hell ya, i can live my life with only bitcoins. I can buy everything right from my toilet paper to rice and grocery using bitcoins.
Most of my friends here feel the same and one of my friends even ordered a Radeon 7970 from amazon using that gift card.

Just my 2 cents..!! :-)

Always buying and selling btc in bulk.!
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My Reputation Thread : https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=252042.0
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May 10, 2013, 08:55:19 PM
 #4

Hello Guys,

I have $ 500 USD worth BTC (roughly about 5 BTC) currently available in my account at the exchange that i'm not actively using in my day-to-day trading.
Do let me know if anyone wants to buy.

MTGOX (last price) + 10%

Payment Method : Accept Cash Deposit / NEFT to my Indian Bank account.

I have 4 BTC still available.
Price : MTGOX (last price) + 10%
I 'll pay you 4,500/- each, purchase  all,  instant  cash  deposit. and any escrow  you like  as long  at it is a prominent  member .  i dont  peg  the  rates to any exchange.  start the negotiations.

I can tell you 2 things.
1. I m first in line
2. He wont sell at that rate ($85 ??)

Hey! just  setting some bidding on the  line. the  indian  community  has  to  get  off pegging  the  bitcoin to  foreign  exchanges.  let  a  free market force  determine  prices.  that is  much better and   gets  rid of monopoly.   and stop using  the $ use you national  currency to bid. 

I  raise  my  bid  to  5000/-
 any  sell  want  to sell  at that rate  can  join  in too.  :-)

Ps-  just  because there is   supply  problem in  India  does not  bean  prices  can be  quoted  as  pegged+10% .  It  creates  an un favorable  market  demand  and drives  away potential  future  users.

If sellers  dont  agree with this   concept, i am  sorry i will push free market  rates  in the indian  community much  harder.   


Ever had the IDEA that most traders are not miners ? They BUY the coins they sell ?

Price of a Bitcoin is dependent on the Supply/demand curve and in India there is limited supply and high demand, it is a market strategy to monopolize and charge high now, that is how a market works !

Keep in mind that The Price per BTC is also a real representation of the value of the "Energy Spent" on creating it (think about it) and you cannot be expecting to peg BTC's value in INR because INR is such a weak currency.


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May 10, 2013, 09:53:15 PM
 #5

Hello Guys,

I have $ 500 USD worth BTC (roughly about 5 BTC) currently available in my account at the exchange that i'm not actively using in my day-to-day trading.
Do let me know if anyone wants to buy.

MTGOX (last price) + 10%

Payment Method : Accept Cash Deposit / NEFT to my Indian Bank account.

I have 4 BTC still available.
Price : MTGOX (last price) + 10%
I 'll pay you 4,500/- each, purchase  all,  instant  cash  deposit. and any escrow  you like  as long  at it is a prominent  member .  i dont  peg  the  rates to any exchange.  start the negotiations.

I can tell you 2 things.
1. I m first in line
2. He wont sell at that rate ($85 ??)

Hey! just  setting some bidding on the  line. the  indian  community  has  to  get  off pegging  the  bitcoin to  foreign  exchanges.  let  a  free market force  determine  prices.  that is  much better and   gets  rid of monopoly.   and stop using  the $ use you national  currency to bid. 

I  raise  my  bid  to  5000/-
 any  sell  want  to sell  at that rate  can  join  in too.  :-)

Ps-  just  because there is   supply  problem in  India  does not  bean  prices  can be  quoted  as  pegged+10% .  It  creates  an un favorable  market  demand  and drives  away potential  future  users.

If sellers  dont  agree with this   concept, i am  sorry i will push free market  rates  in the indian  community much  harder.   


Ever had the IDEA that most traders are not miners ? They BUY the coins they sell ?

Price of a Bitcoin is dependent on the Supply/demand curve and in India there is limited supply and high demand, it is a market strategy to monopolize and charge high now, that is how a market works !

Keep in mind that The Price per BTC is also a real representation of the value of the "Energy Spent" on creating it (think about it) and you cannot be expecting to peg BTC's value in INR because INR is such a weak currency.




Wow !! just  like  i  expected  to  see how the  indian community of  bitcoiners  would be  like .  you look at bitcoin  and  all you see is a way to make money.  you will do any thing to stop  using a biding  system  to  ensure that nothing like a free market  workes out.  The mod seeems to care  less about growing  the indian community rather to increase his  chances of earning the cash. 

All i have been  really talking about to to  grow the community. have  people  involved.  stop practices that is harmfull to the community.  But  all you people  want is to make  money off  others. Bitcoin is not  even  born in  india , let alone in it  infancy . and most of you people  are  on the  way to killing it .

you want  monopoly do it outside the bitcoin forums. it has been a  history that bitcoin is determined  by  bids and free market  economy. not  some thing  stupid as  waiting to Mt Gox to be at it  highest and then  selling  you bitcoins  at  Gox +10% . 

You deal with  market suply and  demand. you set  the prices and then let  the market forces  decide. 

All i am telling you is to stop quoting  gox and  quote  you own prices.
Do all you  dealings  on posts not on private  pm. You want to use  desi tactic, that is not  gona  work.  I know  very  well  india being  the land of  scams. people  just want to  rip off others .
Consider me  as the your personal moral police.  i will always  point out  the wrong, i will always make  sure  you follow  the open standards of the  bitcoin community .  Remember the indian  bitcoin community is nothing  special  that it  goes by its own  rule. but  the rules of this global community, that has  valued itself on open transactions. and  open  forums.


Stop using all this explanations  of  banking  cost and week currency to justify what is being  done . 
You want to sell sell it  on the price you want. give  a  dam  number dont  use the prices  set in  gox  or  any exchange  and then raise another 10% .  you do you  dam  calculation and  put in a number to what you want. 


 
Benson Samuel
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May 11, 2013, 02:04:29 AM
 #6

Quote
The mod seeems to care  less about growing  the indian community rather to increase his  chances of earning the cash. 

So what are you saying here? Explain?
I am working as hard as anyone out here.
So pick your words carefully.
I am not a buyer or a seller but I will help people. Ask anyone in the community if I have ever charged for anything.
I will help anyone who asks, as long as it is not about loans, advances or INR escrows.
And I do not need cash, lol. I have other interests in mind here and all of them are aimed at bringing Bitcoin into India in a bigger way.

Quote
All i have been  really talking about to to  grow the community. have  people  involved.  stop practices that is harmfull to the community.  But  all you people  want is to make  money off  others. Bitcoin is not  even  born in  india , let alone in it  infancy . and most of you people  are  on the  way to killing it .

Lol, patience subvolatil. It has just started. What did you expect?
A fully mature market in 4 years?
A booming Indian market in under a year?

By devaluing its price, you seem to be a bit more geared towards killing it.

Quote
you want  monopoly do it outside the bitcoin forums. it has been a  history that bitcoin is determined  by  bids and free market  economy. not  some thing  stupid as  waiting to Mt Gox to be at it  highest and then  selling  you bitcoins  at  Gox +10% . 

You deal with  market suply and  demand. you set  the prices and then let  the market forces  decide. 

There is no monopoly. Everyone displays their request and people buy or sell, it is that simple. No conspiracy to paint here.
What happens to people who need to transfer money out of India to buy BTC and then sell to you?
Who pays for the trouble/ costs that they encounter?
How do you judge supply and demand when we do not even have a fraction of BTC in India?
Demand is skyrocketting, but there is no supply. In order to cover up the supply, there are costs involved.

Quote
All i am telling you is to stop quoting  gox and  quote  you own prices.
Do all you  dealings  on posts not on private  pm. You want to use  desi tactic, that is not  gona  work.  I know  very  well  india being  the land of  scams. people  just want to  rip off others .
Consider me  as the your personal moral police.  i will always  point out  the wrong, i will always make  sure  you follow  the open standards of the  bitcoin community .  Remember the indian  bitcoin community is nothing  special  that it  goes by its own  rule. but  the rules of this global community, that has  valued itself on open transactions. and  open  forums.

Stop using all this explanations  of  banking  cost and week currency to justify what is being  done . 
You want to sell sell it  on the price you want. give  a  dam  number dont  use the prices  set in  gox  or  any exchange  and then raise another 10% .  you do you  dam  calculation and  put in a number to what you want. 

I would like to see you lead this by selling BTC under the price of the Exchange rates.
This is not moral policing, but a very personal view.
I would like to see how many people will be Ok with devaluing Bitcoin in India.

Conclusion:

I do believe that your intentions are awesome, but you were unable to explain them in a civil manner through the forum.
I noticed your post on https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=194102.0 offering Escrow. Is that what upset you? Because I posted that I will be offering as well?
I only posted that due to the number of requests and the number of times that I had to resend that e-mail to people requesting for the service.

If anyone else feels that there is unfairness, it needs to be vocal. I tremendously appreciate subvolatil for the previous note.
Hopefully, we can grow the community in a manner that is better suited to everyone's need of the hour.

My goal is to have 1 million Indians shout 'Bitcoin' by the end of this year. And everything that can be done, will be done to make that happen.
PS: We are very close BTW.

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May 11, 2013, 04:59:04 AM
 #7

Quote
The mod seeems to care  less about growing  the indian community rather to increase his  chances of earning the cash. 

So what are you saying here? Explain?
I am working as hard as anyone out here.
So pick your words carefully.
I am not a buyer or a seller but I will help people. Ask anyone in the community if I have ever charged for anything.
I will help anyone who asks, as long as it is not about loans, advances or INR escrows.
And I do not need cash, lol. I have other interests in mind here and all of them are aimed at bringing Bitcoin into India in a bigger way.

Quote
All i have been  really talking about to to  grow the community. have  people  involved.  stop practices that is harmfull to the community.  But  all you people  want is to make  money off  others. Bitcoin is not  even  born in  india , let alone in it  infancy . and most of you people  are  on the  way to killing it .

Lol, patience subvolatil. It has just started. What did you expect?
A fully mature market in 4 years?
A booming Indian market in under a year?

By devaluing its price, you seem to be a bit more geared towards killing it.

Quote
you want  monopoly do it outside the bitcoin forums. it has been a  history that bitcoin is determined  by  bids and free market  economy. not  some thing  stupid as  waiting to Mt Gox to be at it  highest and then  selling  you bitcoins  at  Gox +10% . 

You deal with  market suply and  demand. you set  the prices and then let  the market forces  decide. 

There is no monopoly. Everyone displays their request and people buy or sell, it is that simple. No conspiracy to paint here.
What happens to people who need to transfer money out of India to buy BTC and then sell to you?
Who pays for the trouble/ costs that they encounter?
How do you judge supply and demand when we do not even have a fraction of BTC in India?
Demand is skyrocketting, but there is no supply. In order to cover up the supply, there are costs involved.

Quote
All i am telling you is to stop quoting  gox and  quote  you own prices.
Do all you  dealings  on posts not on private  pm. You want to use  desi tactic, that is not  gona  work.  I know  very  well  india being  the land of  scams. people  just want to  rip off others .
Consider me  as the your personal moral police.  i will always  point out  the wrong, i will always make  sure  you follow  the open standards of the  bitcoin community .  Remember the indian  bitcoin community is nothing  special  that it  goes by its own  rule. but  the rules of this global community, that has  valued itself on open transactions. and  open  forums.

Stop using all this explanations  of  banking  cost and week currency to justify what is being  done . 
You want to sell sell it  on the price you want. give  a  dam  number dont  use the prices  set in  gox  or  any exchange  and then raise another 10% .  you do you  dam  calculation and  put in a number to what you want. 

I would like to see you lead this by selling BTC under the price of the Exchange rates.
This is not moral policing, but a very personal view.
I would like to see how many people will be Ok with devaluing Bitcoin in India.

Conclusion:

I do believe that your intentions are awesome, but you were unable to explain them in a civil manner through the forum.
I noticed your post on https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=194102.0 offering Escrow. Is that what upset you? Because I posted that I will be offering as well?
I only posted that due to the number of requests and the number of times that I had to resend that e-mail to people requesting for the service.

If anyone else feels that there is unfairness, it needs to be vocal. I tremendously appreciate subvolatil for the previous note.
Hopefully, we can grow the community in a manner that is better suited to everyone's need of the hour.

My goal is to have 1 million Indians shout 'Bitcoin' by the end of this year. And everything that can be done, will be done to make that happen.
PS: We are very close BTW.


Benson atleast  i'm  not  charging any thing.  No  where on my  post  do you  see  me  trying to take  advantage  of  people. 

Hey did i  offer  to sell  on my  forum  right now?   no i did not .  When i  do  i know how  to .
All i  am  telling  people  to  do is  to  start  quoting   amounts .   There is no  devaluation  there.
But what  you  dont   seem  to   grasp  is  that  when  people  start   to  peg   their  prices  to   gox  it    creates  a    system  that   does not  let  other   sellers  and  buyers   participate  in those  buys. there is no open system of  communication  that  can happen . 

I  have  not  said  they  cant  cover  up their  cost  on  transfers  and   profits.   just   use  an amount, not   gox+10%  .  you  want  active  participation in the  community , you  should  be  taking  the   lead  to   have  people    involved  in  a  open  system  of  transaction . 

Just  because  the  supply is  low  does  not  mean that  you  promote  a  system  that  allowes  people  to   hurt  the  community .  no .

All that needs  to be  done is,  a  person is  selling BTC  put in  a number,  if  his  gox+10%  is  9,000, put that number  in,  not  a  %   that  is   on  a  exchange  which  very few  people  can  reach.

So tell me  where is  devaluing  the  prices comes in to play. Unless you are  scared  that gox  prices   would   go  up  and  you  loose up on the  money  that the  exchange   going  up .  is that the reason Huh?  well if that is  it  just  say the  market  has   risen  and the new  price is this. is that hard  to  do?

by the  way the post  i  have  put in  does not   any  where  state  that i am  doing  harm to people , that post   gives   buyers  and  sellers  to  offer  their  prices they  want,  to   do it  according to  gox they  can  jut  put in the  INR  figure. 

You want  people to  come into the community more   you need  some  thing  that is  simple  . 

You talk about  me  taking  the lead  yeh i have  . i  put in an  open  system  for  every one  to know   what is  going  on . but  do you see me chagrin  any thing .  in this  early  stage  you can't  even  handle  a  few  hundred  transaction escrow  a  day. and  you  start  charging  a  %  despite  being  a mod  in  a forum that  barely has a  few  hundred  members. Any one  else   doing  that i  can  understand but  a mod, its a bit  low.

Monopoly -  when a person, business, goods, or a   system controls the the market  of  purchase  and  supply of  goods. here the system of using  gox+10  is the monopoly. i'm not  attacking the   sky rocketing  prices.  bitcoin prices  will  rise   through  time . but what i am  concerned about is the  use of  a  Exchange  to standardize  purchase ans  sale .

moving  people  off   using  gox+10%  is  a better  thing  to  do, if they want to  still  use  the  exchange rates but   just   quote  prices  in INR. 

You as  a  mod  need  to  see  that   transactions   atleast  in   such an  infancy  should  be   open and  needs to  be  out there.  not  in  private  pm's and  gox  rate.

As an Indian i would  like to  use my  currency  standards to   show  value. INR , if you have  forgotten  its  Rupee. you want  to  see 1 million  people  in the indian  community start by  having  people  quote  prices in INR, they  can add in any  amount in overheads to   cover  their  rates, there is no  devaluation , just the use  of INR insted of   saying  gox+10%.
You need to promote  open  systems.

if your  interest is to  bring  bitcoin in india  in a  bigger  way , my interests lies in solving  problems  in  bringing bitcoin  in a bigger  way .

 

Benson Samuel
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May 11, 2013, 05:50:22 AM
 #8


Quote
Benson atleast  i'm  not  charging any thing.  No  where on my  post  do you  see  me  trying to take  advantage  of  people.  

How is anyone taking advantage of people? People are free to decide whether my services should be used or not.
We are NOT children here.
If anyone asks me for an escrow, I would rather direct them to a trusted party than deal with it myself. Can you name some other people who will be good candidates for escrow? I will be glad to add their names to the thread as well.

Quote
Hey did i  offer  to sell  on my  forum  right now?   no i did not .  When i  do  i know how  to .
All i  am  telling  people  to  do is  to  start  quoting   amounts .   There is no  devaluation  there.
But what  you  dont   seem  to   grasp  is  that  when  people  start   to  peg   their  prices  to   gox  it    creates  a    system  that   does not  let  other   sellers  and  buyers   participate  in those  buys. there is no open system of  communication  that  can happen .  

It is not me asking people to peg to Gox. This seems to be the norm to peg the price to a well known exchange.
Everyone prices the way they feel.
And FYI, there are people who sell for way less than GOX and some who sell way way more as well. Right here on the forums.
I have helped promote both kinds of sellers.

And, no, I have not really supported or involved much with a justification on pricing. Everyone is free to trade as they choose. Some say Gox, others say btc-e. Until we have something that fluid in India, it is tough to peg a price to INR.

Quote
I  have  not  said  they  cant  cover  up their  cost  on  transfers  and   profits.   just   use  an amount, not   gox+10%  .  you  want  active  participation in the  community , you  should  be  taking  the   lead  to   have  people    involved  in  a  open  system  of  transaction .  

Just  because  the  supply is  low  does  not  mean that  you  promote  a  system  that  allowes  people  to   hurt  the  community .  no .

If anyone feels that this system is hurting the community, then by all means, we should stop it. This is the first time that I am hearing about something like this.

Quote
All that needs  to be  done is,  a  person is  selling BTC  put in  a number,  if  his  gox+10%  is  9,000, put that number  in,  not  a  %   that  is   on  a  exchange  which  very few  people  can  reach.

This sounds very reasonable.
In fact, It would be great if someone could put up a calculator to add margins and then quote in INR.

Quote
So tell me  where is  devaluing  the  prices comes in to play. Unless you are  scared  that gox  prices   would   go  up  and  you  loose up on the  money  that the  exchange   going  up .  is that the reason Huh?  well if that is  it  just  say the  market  has   risen  and the new  price is this. is that hard  to  do?

by the  way the post  i  have  put in  does not   any  where  state  that i am  doing  harm to people , that post   gives   buyers  and  sellers  to  offer  their  prices they  want,  to   do it  according to  gox they  can  jut  put in the  INR  figure.  

Nowhere had you mentioned that this was all about the currency denomination.
Quote
All i am telling you is to stop quoting  gox and  quote  you own prices.
This discussion sprang from you quoting 5K INR when the price quoted was a lot more reasonable.
It was a sale thread and you moved it into a bid thread. Hence the discussion.
You can always start a bid sale with your own coins, no problem with that at all.
Changing from USD to INR is a fantastic solution. In fact if you notice, I had tried that on 2 posts earlier when I helped someone sell BTC.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=198710.0
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=197790.0

Quote
You talk about  me  taking  the lead  yeh i have  . i  put in an  open  system  for  every one  to know   what is  going  on . but  do you see me chagrin  any thing .  in this  early  stage  you can't  even  handle  a  few  hundred  transaction escrow  a  day. and  you  start  charging  a  %  despite  being  a mod  in  a forum that  barely has a  few  hundred  members. Any one  else   doing  that i  can  understand but  a mod, its a bit  low.

You seem to think that the forum is the only work that I do.
I joined here as a volunteer and worked quite hard to get people involved in the Bitcoin community. So if you think that a moderator cannot charge escrow, you are wrong. I am also a bitcoiner just like you.
I handle several Websites, work with the press, blog, write code to feed my family, and a host of other activities.
The Bitcoin forums may be at an early stage, but there are several other online resources gaining quick traction as well. In fact, I know a bunch of miners in Bangalore who do not really participate in the community because they choose not to.

Quote
Monopoly -  when a person, business, goods, or a   system controls the the market  of  purchase  and  supply of  goods. here the system of using  gox+10  is the monopoly. i'm not  attacking the   sky rocketing  prices.  bitcoin prices  will  rise   through  time . but what i am  concerned about is the  use of  a  Exchange  to standardize  purchase ans  sale .

moving  people  off   using  gox+10%  is  a better  thing  to  do, if they want to  still  use  the  exchange rates but   just   quote  prices  in INR.  

Mt Gox deserves their monopoly because no one has been able to offer a better solution till date.
Build a better solution and the world will follow.
Quoting prices in INR is well advised.

Quote
You as  a  mod  need  to  see  that   transactions   atleast  in   such an  infancy  should  be   open and  needs to  be  out there.  not  in  private  pm's and  gox  rate.

Quote
All discussions and proof of sale can be vetted on the same thread as the intent to sale.

That was part of the post that I had made.

Nothing is done in PM unless either party requests secrecy. That is every users right.
Anyone can PM anyone and discuss any matter. I will not stop that from happening.

Quote
As an Indian i would  like to  use my  currency  standards to   show  value. INR , if you have  forgotten  its  Rupee. you want  to  see 1 million  people  in the indian  community start by  having  people  quote  prices in INR, they  can add in any  amount in overheads to   cover  their  rates, there is no  devaluation , just the use  of INR insted of   saying  gox+10%.
You need to promote  open  systems.

You are mentioning the INR bit for the first time and I have promoted it as mentioned above.

Quote
if your  interest is to  bring  bitcoin in india  in a  bigger  way , my interests lies in solving  problems  in  bringing bitcoin  in a bigger  way .

Then you should work on that.

laserwolf
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May 11, 2013, 06:17:01 AM
 #9

some 150,000 BTC are traded for USD everyday on MtGox. When 80% of the trade happens at one place, everyone else must follow that price. even the MtGoxEUR price tightly follows the USD price and USDEUR exchange rate. subvolatil, INR will always follow MtGoxUSD in this situation.
legendster
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May 11, 2013, 06:33:04 AM
 #10

Hello Guys,

I have $ 500 USD worth BTC (roughly about 5 BTC) currently available in my account at the exchange that i'm not actively using in my day-to-day trading.
Do let me know if anyone wants to buy.

MTGOX (last price) + 10%

Payment Method : Accept Cash Deposit / NEFT to my Indian Bank account.

I have 4 BTC still available.
Price : MTGOX (last price) + 10%
I 'll pay you 4,500/- each, purchase  all,  instant  cash  deposit. and any escrow  you like  as long  at it is a prominent  member .  i dont  peg  the  rates to any exchange.  start the negotiations.

I can tell you 2 things.
1. I m first in line
2. He wont sell at that rate ($85 ??)

Hey! just  setting some bidding on the  line. the  indian  community  has  to  get  off pegging  the  bitcoin to  foreign  exchanges.  let  a  free market force  determine  prices.  that is  much better and   gets  rid of monopoly.   and stop using  the $ use you national  currency to bid. 

I  raise  my  bid  to  5000/-
 any  sell  want  to sell  at that rate  can  join  in too.  :-)

Ps-  just  because there is   supply  problem in  India  does not  bean  prices  can be  quoted  as  pegged+10% .  It  creates  an un favorable  market  demand  and drives  away potential  future  users.

If sellers  dont  agree with this   concept, i am  sorry i will push free market  rates  in the indian  community much  harder.   


Ever had the IDEA that most traders are not miners ? They BUY the coins they sell ?

Price of a Bitcoin is dependent on the Supply/demand curve and in India there is limited supply and high demand, it is a market strategy to monopolize and charge high now, that is how a market works !

Keep in mind that The Price per BTC is also a real representation of the value of the "Energy Spent" on creating it (think about it) and you cannot be expecting to peg BTC's value in INR because INR is such a weak currency.




Wow !! just  like  i  expected  to  see how the  indian community of  bitcoiners  would be  like .  you look at bitcoin  and  all you see is a way to make money.  you will do any thing to stop  using a biding  system  to  ensure that nothing like a free market  workes out.  The mod seeems to care  less about growing  the indian community rather to increase his  chances of earning the cash. 

All i have been  really talking about to to  grow the community. have  people  involved.  stop practices that is harmfull to the community.  But  all you people  want is to make  money off  others. Bitcoin is not  even  born in  india , let alone in it  infancy . and most of you people  are  on the  way to killing it .

you want  monopoly do it outside the bitcoin forums. it has been a  history that bitcoin is determined  by  bids and free market  economy. not  some thing  stupid as  waiting to Mt Gox to be at it  highest and then  selling  you bitcoins  at  Gox +10% . 

You deal with  market suply and  demand. you set  the prices and then let  the market forces  decide. 

All i am telling you is to stop quoting  gox and  quote  you own prices.
Do all you  dealings  on posts not on private  pm. You want to use  desi tactic, that is not  gona  work.  I know  very  well  india being  the land of  scams. people  just want to  rip off others .
Consider me  as the your personal moral police.  i will always  point out  the wrong, i will always make  sure  you follow  the open standards of the  bitcoin community .  Remember the indian  bitcoin community is nothing  special  that it  goes by its own  rule. but  the rules of this global community, that has  valued itself on open transactions. and  open  forums.


Stop using all this explanations  of  banking  cost and week currency to justify what is being  done . 
You want to sell sell it  on the price you want. give  a  dam  number dont  use the prices  set in  gox  or  any exchange  and then raise another 10% .  you do you  dam  calculation and  put in a number to what you want. 


 


I hate any Kind of Police.

And I m sorry with me as a trader myself I CANNOT SELL COINS BELOW THE PRICE at which I BUY IT FOR !

If I was a miner had some 100 150 or maybe 1000 coins I'd sell below the market price.

But the point stands. You want coins come get it. But its not a free giveaway commodity.

PEOPLE TRADE TO MAKE PROFIT, NOT TO BE "the DaaTA"

If India is a land of Scam then it is also the land of Gandhigiri.

If Indians are known to be poor & ready to rip off people, then it also has NGO's like being Human and Business Power houses like Tata.


And about the Mod making cash.. All I'd say is CHOOSE YOUR WORDS VERY CAREFULLY !

legendster
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May 11, 2013, 06:38:13 AM
 #11

Quote
All that needs  to be  done is,  a  person is  selling BTC  put in  a number,  if  his  gox+10%  is  9,000, put that number  in,  not  a  %   that  is   on  a  exchange  which  very few  people  can  reach.

So you are expecting TRADERS to continuously update each of their rate threads ? What if I quote 9k INR today and tomorrow the Gox prices rises above 11k INR, keep in mind that I am BUYING FROM GOX & SELLING TO PEOPLE & the guy willing to buy says 'WOW WHAT A DEAL!!' He contacts me & finds out that I FAILED to update my rates & Hence yells SCAMMER at my face & degrades my rep ... thats what you are suggesting.

Even getting money into GOX or OKPAy costs money as traders we must ensure that our profit margins covers that and then some.

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May 11, 2013, 06:46:11 AM
 #12


Quote
Benson atleast  i'm  not  charging any thing.  No  where on my  post  do you  see  me  trying to take  advantage  of  people.  

How is anyone taking advantage of people? People are free to decide whether my services should be used or not.
We are NOT children here.
If anyone asks me for an escrow, I would rather direct them to a trusted party than deal with it myself. Can you name some other people who will be good candidates for escrow? I will be glad to add their names to the thread as well.

Quote
Hey did i  offer  to sell  on my  forum  right now?   no i did not .  When i  do  i know how  to .
All i  am  telling  people  to  do is  to  start  quoting   amounts .   There is no  devaluation  there.
But what  you  dont   seem  to   grasp  is  that  when  people  start   to  peg   their  prices  to   gox  it    creates  a    system  that   does not  let  other   sellers  and  buyers   participate  in those  buys. there is no open system of  communication  that  can happen .  

It is not me asking people to peg to Gox. This seems to be the norm to peg the price to a well known exchange.
Everyone prices the way they feel.
And FYI, there are people who sell for way less than GOX and some who sell way way more as well. Right here on the forums.
I have helped promote both kinds of sellers.

And, no, I have not really supported or involved much with a justification on pricing. Everyone is free to trade as they choose. Some say Gox, others say btc-e. Until we have something that fluid in India, it is tough to peg a price to INR.

Quote
I  have  not  said  they  cant  cover  up their  cost  on  transfers  and   profits.   just   use  an amount, not   gox+10%  .  you  want  active  participation in the  community , you  should  be  taking  the   lead  to   have  people    involved  in  a  open  system  of  transaction .  

Just  because  the  supply is  low  does  not  mean that  you  promote  a  system  that  allowes  people  to   hurt  the  community .  no .

If anyone feels that this system is hurting the community, then by all means, we should stop it. This is the first time that I am hearing about something like this.

Quote
All that needs  to be  done is,  a  person is  selling BTC  put in  a number,  if  his  gox+10%  is  9,000, put that number  in,  not  a  %   that  is   on  a  exchange  which  very few  people  can  reach.

This sounds very reasonable.
In fact, It would be great if someone could put up a calculator to add margins and then quote in INR.

Quote
So tell me  where is  devaluing  the  prices comes in to play. Unless you are  scared  that gox  prices   would   go  up  and  you  loose up on the  money  that the  exchange   going  up .  is that the reason Huh?  well if that is  it  just  say the  market  has   risen  and the new  price is this. is that hard  to  do?

by the  way the post  i  have  put in  does not   any  where  state  that i am  doing  harm to people , that post   gives   buyers  and  sellers  to  offer  their  prices they  want,  to   do it  according to  gox they  can  jut  put in the  INR  figure.  

Nowhere had you mentioned that this was all about the currency denomination.
Quote
All i am telling you is to stop quoting  gox and  quote  you own prices.
This discussion sprang from you quoting 5K INR when the price quoted was a lot more reasonable.
It was a sale thread and you moved it into a bid thread. Hence the discussion.
You can always start a bid sale with your own coins, no problem with that at all.
Changing from USD to INR is a fantastic solution. In fact if you notice, I had tried that on 2 posts earlier when I helped someone sell BTC.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=198710.0
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=197790.0

Quote
You talk about  me  taking  the lead  yeh i have  . i  put in an  open  system  for  every one  to know   what is  going  on . but  do you see me chagrin  any thing .  in this  early  stage  you can't  even  handle  a  few  hundred  transaction escrow  a  day. and  you  start  charging  a  %  despite  being  a mod  in  a forum that  barely has a  few  hundred  members. Any one  else   doing  that i  can  understand but  a mod, its a bit  low.

You seem to think that the forum is the only work that I do.
I joined here as a volunteer and worked quite hard to get people involved in the Bitcoin community. So if you think that a moderator cannot charge escrow, you are wrong. I am also a bitcoiner just like you.
I handle several Websites, work with the press, blog, write code to feed my family, and a host of other activities.
The Bitcoin forums may be at an early stage, but there are several other online resources gaining quick traction as well. In fact, I know a bunch of miners in Bangalore who do not really participate in the community because they choose not to.

Quote
Monopoly -  when a person, business, goods, or a   system controls the the market  of  purchase  and  supply of  goods. here the system of using  gox+10  is the monopoly. i'm not  attacking the   sky rocketing  prices.  bitcoin prices  will  rise   through  time . but what i am  concerned about is the  use of  a  Exchange  to standardize  purchase ans  sale .

moving  people  off   using  gox+10%  is  a better  thing  to  do, if they want to  still  use  the  exchange rates but   just   quote  prices  in INR.  

Mt Gox deserves their monopoly because no one has been able to offer a better solution till date.
Build a better solution and the world will follow.
Quoting prices in INR is well advised.

Quote
You as  a  mod  need  to  see  that   transactions   atleast  in   such an  infancy  should  be   open and  needs to  be  out there.  not  in  private  pm's and  gox  rate.

Quote
All discussions and proof of sale can be vetted on the same thread as the intent to sale.

That was part of the post that I had made.

Nothing is done in PM unless either party requests secrecy. That is every users right.
Anyone can PM anyone and discuss any matter. I will not stop that from happening.

Quote
As an Indian i would  like to  use my  currency  standards to   show  value. INR , if you have  forgotten  its  Rupee. you want  to  see 1 million  people  in the indian  community start by  having  people  quote  prices in INR, they  can add in any  amount in overheads to   cover  their  rates, there is no  devaluation , just the use  of INR insted of   saying  gox+10%.
You need to promote  open  systems.

You are mentioning the INR bit for the first time and I have promoted it as mentioned above.

Quote
if your  interest is to  bring  bitcoin in india  in a  bigger  way , my interests lies in solving  problems  in  bringing bitcoin  in a bigger  way .

Then you should work on that.


I  should  have  understood that  most  dont not have  a  background in economic.  when i said not  to peg it to  an exchange. My  fault , my bad.

What i meant  in the earlier  post not to peg it to an exchange  was to tell that a  number  based  system  was a better one. with an  amount used to  represent the value. If that translate as some thing alien, then this is  what it meant. "Using a  value  that is  attached to a  exchange  with addition of 10% gives a  vauge  idea  of  value to the bitcoin, so if insted  you  convert that value to a number and  represented it in the Indian  currency, would be  fare  less hostile to  new people  looking to enter the bitcoin  market.  " so this is not the  first time  i am mentioning  INR.  

people just  went  defensive  when i  asked them to  put in a number  instead  of saying gox+10% . if you  understood  why people became  defensive by giving  explanations  that really  does not  make  any financial  sense, then you  will understand  why it hurts the community.   try to  think on that .

Ps- i was  not  saying  that gox  was in monopoly. gox never  had monopoly.  i pointed the monopoly to the  system of using  the gox+10  a monopoly. because  that system  sets prices not  the  supply and demand in the country.  

Hey every one is  working , every one  puts in their  time  to make ends meet.
Quote
"You talk about  me  taking  the lead  yeh i have  . i  put in an  open  system  for  every one  to know   what is  going  on . but  do you see me chagrin  any thing .  in this  early  stage  you can't  even  handle  a  few  hundred  transaction escrow  a  day. and  you  start  charging  a  %  despite  being  a mod  in  a forum that  barely has a  few  hundred  members. Any one  else   doing  that i  can  understand but  a mod, its a bit  low. "

You seem to think that the forum is the only work that I do.
I joined here as a volunteer and worked quite hard to get people involved in the Bitcoin community. So if you think that a moderator cannot charge escrow, you are wrong. I am also a bitcoiner just like you.
I handle several Websites, work with the press, blog, write code to feed my family, and a host of other activities.
The Bitcoin forums may be at an early stage, but there are several other online resources gaining quick traction as well. In fact, I know a bunch of miners in Bangalore who do not really participate in the community because they choose not to.
Where in this  entire line  do you see me   talking about  your  life ,  what i pointed out  was the  ethics  behind  charging  people  for  escrow, being  a mod. But if your  justification for this is  that you have  other  thing to  do in life, and  by  charging   a % to people  there  will be  less   people  bothering  you then , you  sir  have  forgotten  that you  as a mod  is  suppose to  get  more  people involved  not the  other way  around.

Let me apologize  before  hand,  the way  and  style i  write  and convey thing may be  a bit  rude but i'm not  trying  to be rude, just  speaking my  mind.  
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May 11, 2013, 06:59:51 AM
 #13

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All that needs  to be  done is,  a  person is  selling BTC  put in  a number,  if  his  gox+10%  is  9,000, put that number  in,  not  a  %   that  is   on  a  exchange  which  very few  people  can  reach.

So you are expecting TRADERS to continuously update each of their rate threads ? What if I quote 9k INR today and tomorrow the Gox prices rises above 11k INR, keep in mind that I am BUYING FROM GOX & SELLING TO PEOPLE & the guy willing to buy says 'WOW WHAT A DEAL!!' He contacts me & finds out that I FAILED to update my rates & Hence yells SCAMMER at my face & degrades my rep ... thats what you are suggesting.

Even getting money into GOX or OKPAy costs money as traders we must ensure that our profit margins covers that and then some.

Legendster you  buy  from  gox  lets say you total   expense  was  8,000/- INR.  you come over to the  thread  decide  to  sell it  for  10,000/- INR you  sell it  . you  get  2,000/- INR as your  profit, this is  after  calculating  expenses and  charges.

Not  taking  example of  gox+10%  system  you buy  for 8,000/- this  creates two  outcome. .
1. gox  rate  dips to  less than  8,000/-  you  will never  sell . at that rate. what happens  at that time  all sellers  stop  selling   ckz they  can  quote  gox+10% creating  a  voide in the  supply of  bitcoins.

2.  gox rate  jumps  over  8,000 or  ever  10,000/-  INR  you  sell   people  buy it  with additional +10% ,  who is loosing no one. but  the sale  is only  happening  after  prices  in  gox   has  increased. to your  satisfaction.  and trust me no one  will sell  when gox  rates  are  low, and that is  some  thing  that is not  good  for  the community.

Sellers  never  have to  go on a loss,  sell it  at your  profit. but  put in a  amount  in it , if you  feel that your  prices has increased, just  apologize and update  your  new  prices. if  prices in gox  falls  you  will not  loose  if  prices in gox increase you  will not  loose.
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May 11, 2013, 08:12:50 AM
 #14

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I  should  have  understood that  most  dont not have  a  background in economic.  when i said not  to peg it to  an exchange. My  fault , my bad.

It has nothing to do with a background in economics. It has to do with the way it was put forth. That is the only thing that started this.
And what economics are you talking about that most of us do not have a background on? Keynesian or Austrian?

Quote
people just  went  defensive  when i  asked them to  put in a number  instead  of saying gox+10% . if you  understood  why people became  defensive by giving  explanations  that really  does not  make  any financial  sense, then you  will understand  why it hurts the community.   try to  think on that .

Ps- i was  not  saying  that gox  was in monopoly. gox never  had monopoly.  i pointed the monopoly to the  system of using  the gox+10  a monopoly. because  that system  sets prices not  the  supply and demand in the country.

You are also contradicting what you are saying. If they are putting in a number based on Gox, it is still pegged to Mt Gox + 10%. What if the seller needs to clarify where he has derived the price from? Are you asking him not to?
People got defensive because you did not explain that you just wanted to see INR being quoted and not Mtgox + 10%.

Quote

Hey every one is  working , every one  puts in their  time  to make ends meet.
Quote
"You talk about  me  taking  the lead  yeh i have  . i  put in an  open  system  for  every one  to know   what is  going  on . but  do you see me chagrin  any thing .  in this  early  stage  you can't  even  handle  a  few  hundred  transaction escrow  a  day. and  you  start  charging  a  %  despite  being  a mod  in  a forum that  barely has a  few  hundred  members. Any one  else   doing  that i  can  understand but  a mod, its a bit  low. "

You seem to think that the forum is the only work that I do.
I joined here as a volunteer and worked quite hard to get people involved in the Bitcoin community. So if you think that a moderator cannot charge escrow, you are wrong. I am also a bitcoiner just like you.
I handle several Websites, work with the press, blog, write code to feed my family, and a host of other activities.
The Bitcoin forums may be at an early stage, but there are several other online resources gaining quick traction as well. In fact, I know a bunch of miners in Bangalore who do not really participate in the community because they choose not to.

Where in this  entire line  do you see me   talking about  your  life ,  what i pointed out  was the  ethics  behind  charging  people  for  escrow, being  a mod. But if your  justification for this is  that you have  other  thing to  do in life, and  by  charging   a % to people  there  will be  less   people  bothering  you then , you  sir  have  forgotten  that you  as a mod  is  suppose to  get  more  people involved  not the  other way  around.

I would also like to understand this open system that you have introduced for people to know. All you have said is 'sell based on Gox rates, but charge in Rupees'.
Ethics are based on personal values. When you questioned my ethics, I answered appropriately.
In case you did not know, a Moderators job is to ensure smooth flow of the forum, avoid spam, trolls, scammers and settle disputes. This seems to be going on. Although not yet close to where it can be.
You have mistaken me for a forum marketer. I do that as well, but out of my own interest.
I also strongly support indiabitcoin.com, buysellbitco.in, rbitco.in and any other initiative apart from the forum that drives people into Bitcoin in India. I do that from bensonsamuel.com as a personal interest and not as a duty.

Quote

Let me apologize  before  hand,  the way  and  style i  write  and convey thing may be  a bit  rude but i'm not  trying  to be rude, just  speaking my  mind.

I understand your intentions.

If you feel that your method is correct, work on it and see if people embrace it. Else, do not get upset that it was not absorbed.
I felt that my method was right, which is why I follow it and people have not disagreed yet. If it did not work, I would never really care, but I will try other approaches for sure.

If you understand free market economics, then you will know the model that I have personally chosen and it colludes with the choice of almost every Bitcoiner out there. Including Indians!

Conclusion:
This discussion started from wanting a peg to INR and then moved into me charging an escrow.
You cannot question my ethics, just the same as I will not question yours.
But I am willing to listen and adjust based on mass requests.
No one has yet requested me to drop the escrow fee. In fact, I have had few requests for escrow after posting that.
If asked to drop the fee by my peers, I will oblige.

If anyone feels that we should completely move away from using terms such as Mt Gox + 10%, please feel free to move away from that model.
And if anyone wants to quote prices in antelopes, please go ahead.
Remember, a trader is only looking for the best way to market his product. Even I get way way better responses when I ask for a sale in USD rather than INR.

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May 11, 2013, 09:59:59 AM
 #15

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All that needs  to be  done is,  a  person is  selling BTC  put in  a number,  if  his  gox+10%  is  9,000, put that number  in,  not  a  %   that  is   on  a  exchange  which  very few  people  can  reach.

So you are expecting TRADERS to continuously update each of their rate threads ? What if I quote 9k INR today and tomorrow the Gox prices rises above 11k INR, keep in mind that I am BUYING FROM GOX & SELLING TO PEOPLE & the guy willing to buy says 'WOW WHAT A DEAL!!' He contacts me & finds out that I FAILED to update my rates & Hence yells SCAMMER at my face & degrades my rep ... thats what you are suggesting.

Even getting money into GOX or OKPAy costs money as traders we must ensure that our profit margins covers that and then some.

Legendster you  buy  from  gox  lets say you total   expense  was  8,000/- INR.  you come over to the  thread  decide  to  sell it  for  10,000/- INR you  sell it  . you  get  2,000/- INR as your  profit, this is  after  calculating  expenses and  charges.

Not  taking  example of  gox+10%  system  you buy  for 8,000/- this  creates two  outcome. .
1. gox  rate  dips to  less than  8,000/-  you  will never  sell . at that rate. what happens  at that time  all sellers  stop  selling   ckz they  can  quote  gox+10% creating  a  voide in the  supply of  bitcoins.


HOLD IT RIGHT HERE.

When gox prices dip below 8k, I buy MORE COINS & Sell them for 10%+gox & yes I will never sell my expensive coins for lower prices, I'll even create a separate wallet for them & sell them when the market prices are above them.

Thats the best way to increase the supply of coins in India.

You sure know a lot about trading, but it is not enough.

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May 12, 2013, 04:36:24 AM
 #16

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All that needs  to be  done is,  a  person is  selling BTC  put in  a number,  if  his  gox+10%  is  9,000, put that number  in,  not  a  %   that  is   on  a  exchange  which  very few  people  can  reach.

So you are expecting TRADERS to continuously update each of their rate threads ? What if I quote 9k INR today and tomorrow the Gox prices rises above 11k INR, keep in mind that I am BUYING FROM GOX & SELLING TO PEOPLE & the guy willing to buy says 'WOW WHAT A DEAL!!' He contacts me & finds out that I FAILED to update my rates & Hence yells SCAMMER at my face & degrades my rep ... thats what you are suggesting.

Even getting money into GOX or OKPAy costs money as traders we must ensure that our profit margins covers that and then some.

Legendster you  buy  from  gox  lets say you total   expense  was  8,000/- INR.  you come over to the  thread  decide  to  sell it  for  10,000/- INR you  sell it  . you  get  2,000/- INR as your  profit, this is  after  calculating  expenses and  charges.

Not  taking  example of  gox+10%  system  you buy  for 8,000/- this  creates two  outcome. .
1. gox  rate  dips to  less than  8,000/-  you  will never  sell . at that rate. what happens  at that time  all sellers  stop  selling   ckz they  can  quote  gox+10% creating  a  voide in the  supply of  bitcoins.


HOLD IT RIGHT HERE.

When gox prices dip below 8k, I buy MORE COINS & Sell them for 10%+gox & yes I will never sell my expensive coins for lower prices, I'll even create a separate wallet for them & sell them when the market prices are above them.

Thats the best way to increase the supply of coins in India.

You sure know a lot about trading, but it is not enough.

and that i  what i  am  pointing  towards ,  purchase  of    coins  that are   above  the  current  market   rates  are  never  sold  if  you   still keep  using  the gox+10%.

Yeh  it  true  when you have  liquidity in  funds  you  buy when  markets  are  low,  be  you willl not  sell that  coins  which  you have  baught   earlear  for a   higher   price.


Consider  this every  one  in the  market   starts  doing that.   

for a  period  of  lets say  10  days  the  bitsoin  rates   go   bellow  the  market  rates.  every one  has  earlier  bought it   at  a higher  market  rate. 
What happens  to the  bitcoins  already  bought??? no one  sells  it . if  a market  system  in  which  gox+10% is  used you wont  be  able to  quote  you  prices  again.  because  now the buyers will  quote  gox+10%. you  wont  be able  to  sell the older  bitcoins  untill and  unless  ther is a  liquidity with  you  to  buy ar  the  current  gox  rate. here  the  sellers  loose out  on the sale of  bitcoins  not  on the  suply of the  coins in the indian  market  but  the  market  rates  on  gox.  so only the  sellers  who has  liquidity  to purchase  in  that  down  market  can  benefit .  secondly also  creating a   situation  where  coins  are  not  available because no one  sells  when  gox  is  down.

Here i am  talking  about  a  collective  not   as an  individual.

As an  individual the motive is always  profit, to hold  when  markets  are  down  to  sell when  it is high.  as an individual  using  gox+10%  or  quoting  prices  in INR makes  verry  little  difference because in both the cases i  stil make  a profit just  quoting  gox+10% is  simple insted  of   doing a  bit of math  to  give out the value in INR.

But on a larger  scale when  every one does  that the problem  of  scarcity in  coins   come up .  scarcity creates a  problem  of  non adoption of a  monetary  system  what  Bitcoin is.  Bitcoin is not a  trading instrument it is  a currency, which has  a main  purpose of  being  used  to  purchase  goods and  services.    so all i am  saying is that you  want  more  people  to  use  bitcoin  you  need  to have  it  more  acceptable, to the  general  public. systems  need to be made  simpler, for the buyer not  complex.  people  need to  be able to  see that bitcoin  as a  currency and not a  trading instrument.   

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May 12, 2013, 05:04:40 AM
 #17

Quote
Quote
"people just  went  defensive  when i  asked them to  put in a number  instead  of saying gox+10% . if you  understood  why people became  defensive by giving  explanations  that really  does not  make  any financial  sense, then you  will understand  why it hurts the community.   try to  think on that .

Ps- i was  not  saying  that gox  was in monopoly. gox never  had monopoly.  i pointed the monopoly to the  system of using  the gox+10  a monopoly. because  that system  sets prices not  the  supply and demand in the country."

You are also contradicting what you are saying. If they are putting in a number based on Gox, it is still pegged to Mt Gox + 10%. What if the seller needs to clarify where he has derived the price from? Are you asking him not to?
People got defensive because you did not explain that you just wanted to see INR being quoted and not Mtgox + 10%.


Yes  they  got  defensive  because  of that  very  reason.  and i've been  trying  to  explain why it is  better  to  just  quote  a number  rather  than   gox+10%.But the  odd  part  of this  was  no body  every  took time  to  ask  how  would  this  be  beneficial, and  why it  would be  better insted  came out   swinging  a  club  and  justifying  transactions, to  see the bigger  picture   you got  to open your  eyes.  and  trust me once  that starts  people  will be more  than  acceptance of  using bit coins  ,  newer  users   can  more  easily  be  assimilated  into  the  bitcoin  community. problems  of   bitcoins  not  being  sold  during gox  low  rates  will be  solved.

Quote
I would also like to understand this open system that you have introduced for people to know. All you have said is 'sell based on Gox rates, but charge in Rupees'.


Ok here you  go eg -

on 12 jan A  says  i am  selling 1 bitcoin  for Gox+10% , B says  ok i will buy for  gox+10% .

on 13jan C says  i am  selling  1 bitcoin  for  5,000/INR  . D says  i am  buying it  for 5,000/INR

on 14 jan A says i am  buying  1 bitcoin  for  Gox+10% D says i am selling  for  Gox +10%

on 15jan C says  i am  buying  1bitcoin  for  6000/INR . B  says i am  selling for  7,000 INR


now  put this  verry  transaction into a  market  of  a  hundred transaction .. are  you able to  gauge  what is  really happening  in the market There is  verry little  open  information  to be  seen.  Think big  if you  plans are to  get  bitcoins  more  acceptability in india 

now  put in a   this  next  example in .

on 12 jan A  says  i am  selling 1 bitcoin  for 4000/-INR , B says  ok i will buy for  4000/-INR .

on 13jan C says  i am  selling  1 bitcoin  for  5,000/INR  . D says  i am  buying it  for 5,000/-INR

on 14 jan A says i am  buying  1 bitcoin  for  5500/-INR D says i am selling  for  6,000/-INR

on 15jan C says  i am  buying  1bitcoin  for  6000/INR . B  says i am  selling for  7,000 INR (sold)

This  looks  like  some  thing   so simple  you  every  one  .  that  you are  goina  ask  Why the  hell are you making  it  a big  fuss.  its not like  bitcoin  traing in india  is  like a million dolar  trad. its  just a small community.
Small community ,  that is the reason  why the  big  fuss, because  once  the  community  grows  the  problems  i have  stated are  going to  be  real and  we need to   adopt  a  system   where in  future  growth is  anticipated . .

Quote
Ethics are based on personal values. When you questioned my ethics, I answered appropriately.
In case you did not know, a Moderators job is to ensure smooth flow of the forum, avoid spam, trolls, scammers and settle disputes. This seems to be going on. Although not yet close to where it can be.
You have mistaken me for a forum marketer. I do that as well, but out of my own interest.
I also strongly support indiabitcoin.com, buysellbitco.in, rbitco.in and any other initiative apart from the forum that drives people into Bitcoin in India. I do that from bensonsamuel.com as a personal interest and not as a duty.

Ehics part was this  what i was pointing  at :-

Quote
Where in this  entire line  do you see me   talking about  your  life ,  what i pointed out  was the  ethics  behind  charging  people  for  escrow, being  a mod. But if your  justification for this is  that you have  other  thing to  do in life, and  by  charging   a % to people  there  will be  less   people  bothering  you then , you  sir  have  forgotten  that you  as a mod  is  suppose to  get  more  people involved  not the  other way  around.

I never  picked up any thing  else, and  still  you  justify by  answering  this  part  by   diverting  the  answer  to  other  thing like  what a  mod  is  suppose to do on the  forum and  businesses that are operating  in the  forum .  Those  are irrelevant to the  question i  put  fort which i will reiterate sin simple  english . 

Are you  justifying  the  charging of the  escrow to people  so that you have  less people  bothering you  with  escrow, and also  so that you other  thing in life  would  be  given more time ?  its  that simple.

If you  answer  by  saying  it so that i can  earn  money . i  respect  that every one  earns  money , but  if you intentions was to  lower the  number of  escrow  request  then  you are  doing  a  wrong thing. 
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May 12, 2013, 05:47:45 AM
 #18

Anyone else feel that this thread makes sense?

I do not see anyone apart from subvolatil with any problems here.

I also went through previous posts of subvolatil to check if I was being pulled into an unnecessary conflict and it seems like it is.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=129972.msg1390069#msg1390069
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=122788.0

Dishwara is not a scammer by the way, he is quite a well respected member of the Indian Bitcoin community.

If you spent more time reading through the forums, you would have known that.

Quote
Are you  justifying  the  charging of the  escrow to people  so that you have  less people  bothering you  with  escrow, and also  so that you other  thing in life  would  be  given more time ?  its  that simple.

Keeping my Identity Public and open, updating record books, checking for existing scammer tags, a security cover for holding the BTC etc are more than enough reasons for a reasonable fee. The fee is to cover for time and other costs that I incur by moving away from my bread winning work.

Everyone here quotes in Gox, because everyone knows Gox. When we get some more fluidity in INR pricing, this will organically change. We have seen this in the past across the russian forums as well.
Once wallets and exchanges start showing prices in INR, people will quote in INR. I get my prices from Coinbase in INR. Not everyone uses Coinbase.

Please stop accusing members of what you think is personally incorrect. You are wasting time, hi-jacking other peoples threads and causing unnecessary rifts in our growing community.

You have suggested ideas on some threads, but never really built them or chased them.
Your support to the Indian community has been very weak till date. Do not expect anyone to give a crap till you gain some form of credibility.

You have not shown any technical, economic or marketing knowledge thus far.

The forum is a place for us to get together and discuss the potential of Bitcoin in India. Not to squabble.

If you think there is something wrong with what is happening, click the report to moderator button. theymos & John K review all moderator reports, so there are always more than one person who decides on an outcome of a report.

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May 12, 2013, 07:39:35 AM
 #19

Anyone else feel that this thread makes sense?

I do not see anyone apart from subvolatil with any problems here.

I also went through previous posts of subvolatil to check if I was being pulled into an unnecessary conflict and it seems like it is.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=129972.msg1390069#msg1390069
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=122788.0

Dishwara is not a scammer by the way, he is quite a well respected member of the Indian Bitcoin community.

If you spent more time reading through the forums, you would have known that.

Quote
Are you  justifying  the  charging of the  escrow to people  so that you have  less people  bothering you  with  escrow, and also  so that you other  thing in life  would  be  given more time ?  its  that simple.

Keeping my Identity Public and open, updating record books, checking for existing scammer tags, a security cover for holding the BTC etc are more than enough reasons for a reasonable fee. The fee is to cover for time and other costs that I incur by moving away from my bread winning work.

Everyone here quotes in Gox, because everyone knows Gox. When we get some more fluidity in INR pricing, this will organically change. We have seen this in the past across the russian forums as well.
Once wallets and exchanges start showing prices in INR, people will quote in INR. I get my prices from Coinbase in INR. Not everyone uses Coinbase.

Please stop accusing members of what you think is personally incorrect. You are wasting time, hi-jacking other peoples threads and causing unnecessary rifts in our growing community.

You have suggested ideas on some threads, but never really built them or chased them.
Your support to the Indian community has been very weak till date. Do not expect anyone to give a crap till you gain some form of credibility.

You have not shown any technical, economic or marketing knowledge thus far.

The forum is a place for us to get together and discuss the potential of Bitcoin in India. Not to squabble.

If you think there is something wrong with what is happening, click the report to moderator button. theymos & John K review all moderator reports, so there are always more than one person who decides on an outcome of a report.



Wow  Benson i did not know  you would  try to  resort to an  Ad hominem attack , to  a  simple   question i  asked  you . 

the  answer  too that you  give  me  long   unjustifiable  answers.,


You  have  been  discussing  on  why  Indians have  a bad  rep in the international  market .  its  because  they  can  answer   some  thing  straight forward.

It looks  like  you have  already  taken  up arms  against a   simple    idea . looks  like  you  have  more  than a  vested  interest on any thing   that is   going  on in here.  you are  fighting  with  me  over  a  simple  question  i asked  . 

The question  i  asked  you  could  be  answered  in less than  one  sentence.   but  you  love  giving  long  winded  answers. and  diverting  the   discussion  from   free market   discussion to  a  personal  crusade  to  justify you  actions.  if  my one  liner  question  made  you  so  uncomfortable  and   you  went  on a  rant  to  justify   you action  that just  make  thinigs  more   suspicious. and  why  people  become  so  suspicious. i did not  accuse  you  of  scams or  ripping  people  off. i questioned  you on the  ethics and  reason behind  the  charges  you put  forth. But  if you  dont  want to  answer  that you  dont have  to,   just  dont   give  out  long winded   answers  to  thing  that are  irreverent.   


So you  idea  of  justifying  thing , aka your  actions  is  to   write  to the community  and  basically  say  " Look this  guy is  here that wants  every one  in the bitcoin community to  benifit, and  want   a  system  that  lets   sellers   not  be in  control of  the  prices  but the   market  suply  and  demand.  we  should   go and  ostracize  him  in  front  of  every one  and then  we  should  go about  with out   normal  routine . "

Benson you  failed  to  see thing in the  bigger  prospective of why i  was  trying  to   bring up the   issue  of  having  things  quoted in a  National  currency. i  guess you think you loose money  that the reason  why  you  went  about  digging  old  posts like a  little  old  women and  trying to  discredit  me.
I dont  stoop  that low . i  dont  discredit   people,  i  ask  straight  forward  questions  and if you  cant  answer  them then  it  not me  to be  blamed  for it .

My  questions  to past  members  have  been  straight  forward.  the  discussion there  was   totally  in the  hands  of the  member, i  was  asking  questions  to .  he   failed  to  answer  giving  long  winded   answers, about the incomtax  department  and   basically   trying to  drive  other  members  from  participating  in the  community . 

That  brings  us to the  question i  asked  earlier . for which you seem to  be   avoiding  the answer. 

so here it is  again .
Quote
Are you  justifying  the  charging of the  escrow to people  so that you have  less people  bothering you  with  escrow, and also  so that you other  thing in life  would  be  given more time ?  its  that simple.

By  the way mod this is a  forum  conversation  some time   things  move  off course if you want to  split  this  also   to your  justification   topic  you can .  but  it  was a  simple  question  that you are  blowing  off proportion. 


I  have  spent  the past  post  explaining to you what i meant  by the  system i proposed  but you  seem to  ignore  that and   concentrate  on  some thing that  hurts you  ego . for a   simple  question. 

your  idea  of   contributing  to the  community is  empowering the  sellers and businesses, well  that is  where i  differ, i  would  rather  see some thing  that is  community  driven and     determined  by the local  free market. 

By  the  way all my  posts have  always  been to  protect the  greater  good,  not a  few  individuals, you  think  that is  bad, then  that's your  way of thinking .

you want to  bring down  barriers to   people  in the community  then start to  look into  the  ethical  reasons  on  what is   good  for  the  masses and  how   in the  future  every one will befit. 

If you want to  continue  the discussion  on the  INR system i was  talking about  please  continue .

Ideas  can only  be  proposed , but  for  adoption of it  it needs to be  discussed .  so if you want this  idea to  die  out  then just  dont  discuss. it  will  die  out. just like the  one  where  in  we  were  discussing  about  forming  a   team  for  a alt coin .and  i asked  you  to  create  a  new  thread, you seemed most  interested and  you seemed  to be  the one to take  the lead  but,  you  did not insted, no one participated and  died out. but that post was  also  a  idea  i  was proposing  to  solve  a  specific  problem a  different  problem. 

Do you  see the trend here??  i  try to  propose  idea  to solve  problems  with  bitcoin, not  find   ways  to  send money to  exchanges.  I look  at the bigger  picture  when it  comes  to  bitcoin and  try to  have  open  system  and  safer  system  for the  community, through these  discussions.




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May 12, 2013, 09:31:48 AM
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