USA Debt Repayable

[Operatr]

Money  =  Debt

It is mathematically impossible for the debt to ever be repaid with a fractional reserve system, as the debt is always more than the current money in circulation. An odd fact this was built right into the system.

Essentially when the debt supernovas known as bank derivatives go down in flames after the first quiver of our bullish can-do-no-wrong stock market, the debt of the world effectively goes to infinity. These risky derivatives clock in to the tune of something around $1 Quadrillion...the GDP of the entire world is about $70 Trillion. Literally not enough available money on Earth to bail out the banking system when it happens. Lehman Brothers failure was just a single bank, and look what that did. What happens when it is all banks crumbling all at once. We can't put off the inevitable forever, though Bernake is sure trying his hardest.

You are confusing repayment of all debt at the same time, which is of course impossible, with repayments of loans as they fall due, which is what happens.  If you buy a 10 year bond, you get repaid in 10 years.  Its not a default if you ask to be repaid early and the borrower refuses.  If you really want that money, you should sell the bond.

Meanwhile: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/05/14/cbo-says-deficit-problem-is-solved-for-the-next-10-years/

This is all good news - the world is not coming to an end - be happy

The bond market is not safe either

http://seekingalpha.com/article/1378751-the-coming-bond-market-collapse-3-ways-to-escape-the-damage

http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/daily-ticker/most-overpriced-oversupplied-over-owned-market-history-125751538.html

Nothing is safe in our current economic system. Fiat is failing, and anything attached to it will fail with it. The world may not end in a biblical sense, but the world as we know it will be very different I think by the end of this year. The bankers and government didn't change a damn thing after 2008, they just went back to their old tricks fueled by Bernake's magic moneybin and more relaxed policy on Capitol Hill. The economy is right now a set of dominoes, the fall of one market could rapidly become a contagion through the entire financial sector as it is already so weak from the 2008 market crash. It is all on life support by continuous pumping more and more money into the system to keep growth alive, even though PMI numbers tell a very different story. China is just building entire ghost cities to keep their production up.

Lehman Brothers failed in 2 days, it is not unfeasible several could fail as rapidly at the same time in another crash. One bank caused the 2008 recession, several would be unthinkable.

This article poses a rosey picture but leaves out a lot of factors that directly affect the economic health of the US that their policies can't control. Everything we see is a giant debt bubble driven by rapid inflation and increasing debt. It won't end well, and no amount of soon to be worthless bonds will save you from it. I hope it wont be but it seems there is only one way this all stops as a mathematical certainty. If you want the currency of the future, I would hedge my bet on Bitcoin, or bullets.

I don't like being Mr. Doomsayer, but I have studied this a lot in past months, the magic 8 ball hasn't said anything good to me yet..

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[Hawker]

...snip... Everything we see is a giant debt bubble driven by rapid inflation and increasing debt. ...snip...

What you have said is 100% true in that everything you see is a"giant debt bubble."  But that only tells us about you.  The real world has things in it that are not giant debt bubbles.

Try to take a step back and imagine yourself being mistaken.  It might help then to consider that the billionaires that are happy lending their money to the USA could be something other than deluded fools.  They might even be smart investors.

Think about it...

[Razick]

It will never be payed back, they'll just print some more of it.

There is no need to repay any debt as, with coming The Great Economic Collapse, the whole world will become single global corporation controlled by the US.

Tinfoil hats! Quick!

[Operatr]

...snip... Everything we see is a giant debt bubble driven by rapid inflation and increasing debt. ...snip...

What you have said is 100% true in that everything you see is a"giant debt bubble."  But that only tells us about you.  The real world has things in it that are not giant debt bubbles.

Try to take a step back and imagine yourself being mistaken.  It might help then to consider that the billionaires that are happy lending their money to the USA could be something other than deluded fools.  They might even be smart investors.

Think about it...

I'm not entirely clear on what you're saying. I really hope my perception is 100% false but a lot of prominent economists would agree with my assessment. A lot of the billionaires (there are some benevolent ones in private industry to be sure) ones are the same banking scumbags that rigged the system in their favor, and got off scott free when they tanked the market a few years ago, causing unprecedented levels of misery for millions. They don't loan money to the US, the US simply prints more.

The world does have things that are not bubbles, but the impact of a massive collapse would affect everything

It will never be payed back, they'll just print some more of it.

There is no need to repay any debt as, with coming The Great Economic Collapse, the whole world will become single global corporation controlled by the US.

Tinfoil hats! Quick!

Considering corporations and banks already control all of money including creating it, it's more likely than you think. The only thing that separates the US government from a corporation anymore is that we still call it a government. Remember the last time you had a direct say on how they are running things? Me either

[ktttn]

None of the totalitarian characters trotted out in the "atheists have killed more people" fallacy, whether they were atheist or not, killed in the name of a lack of belief in a god.

None of those characters are atheists, because the belief in government is a theistic belief. Believing in government is believing in a god, so by definition it's not possible to be an atheist who believes in government.

THIS.
Also, the bigger they are the harder they fall. I abandoned ship on federal reserve notes years ago. They seem like slimy little unmoney debtmachines that you can only ever owe somebody in exchange for something you can either get for free or dont really need. Affluence creates a vaccumm around the affluent, preventing tech advances from benefeiting all living people. I would like to indulge my naiivety by imagining that the obsolescence of fiat will result of the obsolescence of its debts too.

[Operatr]

None of the totalitarian characters trotted out in the "atheists have killed more people" fallacy, whether they were atheist or not, killed in the name of a lack of belief in a god.

None of those characters are atheists, because the belief in government is a theistic belief. Believing in government is believing in a god, so by definition it's not possible to be an atheist who believes in government.

THIS.
Also, the bigger they are the harder they fall. I abandoned ship on federal reserve notes years ago. They seem like slimy little unmoney debtmachines that you can only ever owe somebody in exchange for something you can either get for free or dont really need. Affluence creates a vaccumm around the affluent, preventing tech advances from benefeiting all living people. I would like to indulge my naiivety by imagining that the obsolescence of fiat will result of the obsolescence of its debts too.

As money is quite literally created by generating more debt, the failure of fiat will take the debt with it.

I can see a scenario as the institutions continue to fail and public mistrust continues to increase, and crypto-currencies soak up that damage by overwriting the bad sectors and the fiat debt as the damage occurs while people put what wealth they have left into crypto leaving their old debt behind to rot. We already got a taste of this scenario with the Cyprus bailout (or as I call it, grand theft) as account holders shifted into Bitcoin where their bank couldn't get to their money. Argentinians are not far behind to get out of the Peso before inflation makes them completely worthless. Who knows what happens next really, but it should be quite a spectacle.

Profitism kills innovation. If an innovation is not profitable, no one will advance it further or implement it. We've already solved a lot of our problems with technology, but is stiffed by lack of profit incentive.  Big corporations don't want us to implement technology that they don't profit from in some way. If not for Big Energy lobbying government to squeeze green-energy for example, our houses would not be on any common electrical grid. Our cars would not run on gas. Our power would not come from burning coal and other environmental destructive methods. Permanent geo-thermal solutions could power our whole society 4000x over. But unless someone is making a buck off of you forever, they won't let that happen. The good of humanity hurts their bottom line. Imagine a world where self-sufficiency is the norm, I would like to live in that place.

It is sad our intelligence and engineering prowess has to be back seat to the greedy few.

[Hawker]

...snip...

It is sad our intelligence and engineering prowess has to be back seat to the greedy few.

You are not really hoping for a happy ending are you?  I know you aren't alone - a lot of people really struggle with the idea that everything is OK, the global economy will tick along just fine and its better to go out for a nice meal than to eat grits in the fallout shelter.

[Operatr]

...snip...

It is sad our intelligence and engineering prowess has to be back seat to the greedy few.

You are not really hoping for a happy ending are you?  I know you aren't alone - a lot of people really struggle with the idea that everything is OK, the global economy will tick along just fine and its better to go out for a nice meal than to eat grits in the fallout shelter.

It is not a matter of hope, just realism based on what I know. I've simply accepted the inevitable outcome of the events that have occurred over the last 100 years or so. I think those that don't wake up to the world around them may find themselves blindsided. I know I sound pessimistic, but actually I am hopeful for the future.

The 2008 crash was real and felt by everyone, it surprises me how quickly everyone just forgot because our government said "don't worry we got it!". They just kept doing the same thing they did before after that, and nothing good will come of it as it didn't before. There is plenty of recent economic evidence to support a simple truth that we are not headed for a nice and happy world soon. I refuse to simply watch American Idol and pretend the world is OK like other people knowing such things are going on this very second that caused a global recession last time. Our governments and banks are all liars and thieves, I look after me and mine. I hope I'm wrong, but the consequences are too great if I am right to ignore.

[Hawker]

...snip...

It is sad our intelligence and engineering prowess has to be back seat to the greedy few.

You are not really hoping for a happy ending are you?  I know you aren't alone - a lot of people really struggle with the idea that everything is OK, the global economy will tick along just fine and its better to go out for a nice meal than to eat grits in the fallout shelter.

It is not a matter of hope, just realism based on what I know. I've simply accepted the inevitable outcome of the events that have occurred over the last 100 years or so. I think those that don't wake up to the world around them may find themselves blindsided. I know I sound pessimistic, but actually I am hopeful for the future.

The 2008 crash was real and felt by everyone, it surprises me how quickly everyone just forgot because our government said "don't worry we got it!". They just kept doing the same thing they did before after that, and nothing good will come of it as it didn't before. There is plenty of recent economic evidence to support a simple truth that we are not headed for a nice and happy world soon. I refuse to simply watch American Idol and pretend the world is OK like other people knowing such things are going on this very second that caused a global recession last time. Our governments and banks are all liars and thieves, I look after me and mine. I hope I'm wrong, but the consequences are too great if I am right to ignore.

The 2008 crash was real and it did indeed make life harder for poor people than it was in 2007.  But apart from that, no real harm was done.  The big economies of 2007 are still the same big economies today.  Yes - I can see that GDP growth slowed down in the US.  But that isn't the same as saying the the USA can't repay its debts.  It can - it is doing so comfortably.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/05/15/us-investment-bond-scarcity-analysis-idUSBRE94E07P20130515

and

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/a1fd88c0-bd52-11e2-890a-00144feab7de.html#axzz2THSnFrpA

Here you have people desperate to lend to the USA making PR pitches to the financial press imploring the government to borrow their money. Hardly the behaviour of creditors that fear being stiffed is it?

[ibminer]

It is not a matter of hope, just realism based on what I know. I've simply accepted the inevitable outcome of the events that have occurred over the last 100 years or so. I think those that don't wake up to the world around them may find themselves blindsided. I know I sound pessimistic, but actually I am hopeful for the future.

The 2008 crash was real and felt by everyone, it surprises me how quickly everyone just forgot because our government said "don't worry we got it!". They just kept doing the same thing they did before after that, and nothing good will come of it as it didn't before. There is plenty of recent economic evidence to support a simple truth that we are not headed for a nice and happy world soon. I refuse to simply watch American Idol and pretend the world is OK like other people knowing such things are going on this very second that caused a global recession last time. Our governments and banks are all liars and thieves, I look after me and mine. I hope I'm wrong, but the consequences are too great if I am right to ignore.

^ This
... Although I do tend to be pessimistic as well. I do not care much about the financials in this situation, as I don't believe there is much hope from this end.

Politicians have lost their way in the US. Greed, corruption, evil - yes they have all existed for a long time, but they are out of control and in an elevated state. Maybe due to increased population, increased communication/understanding of the world (internet), maybe due to just natural progression - if your not caught or stopped (they usually aren't) - you are going to keep getting worse. Think about how many studies have been done on humans and human behavior... not to mention the numerous studies we probably don't know about. They know how people think, how they act, what they respond to... they know what to say, when to say it, how to say it, where to say it, etc. They are our 'physical' Gods. They have people down to a science.

All people are 'different' and have uniquenesses about them, but IMO there are several classifications of humans, potentially tens of thousands or more. You can call it stereotyping or whatever you want, you can call them democrats, republicans, communists, socialists, etc. This is not how I personally would be naming the classifications... but the fact is that there are people who act/think alike and follow the same ideologies that contribute to who we are as humans and a society and can coincide with how we act, what we do, who we talk to, etc. Albeit, these are human taught classifications and not really something we were born with.

They know what each classification responds to, what they want to hear, what they like/don't like, what they forget, what their interests are, what they buy into, etc. For federal-level politicians, the trick is how to say what you need to say or do what you need to do to a particular group or figure out a way to say something that appeals to multiple classifications, and do it without the other group(s) knowing/hearing about it (assume we would call this being politically correct? - no clue why political correctness even exists)... and this is not very easily done anymore with the creation of the internet and technology in general (mobile phones, video cameras, etc) that catch everything anyone is saying about anything...but its not entirely impossible. Assuming they were not able to bribe there way out of the situation, the strategy right now when you get caught in a situation like this seems to be to apologize, disappear for a while, then come back. (because they know we typically 'forget', based on the aforementioned studies) I assume they will ultimately achieve some type of internet regulations or government oversight to control what information goes 'viral' and what information may be deemed a threat to national security.

For me, if you believe they have knowledge about people and have ways of accessing it... it is scary to think what government developers/hackers could do with a dataset of information like this. Does a database like this exist would be the question (or is it being created)... and where would you put that much information? Who knows... maybe in the new 'spy center' complex that has been established by the NSA to house data/information/servers that will be linked to all of the intelligence 'listening posts' around the world. With four 25,000 sq. feet halls with wall-to-wall rows/racks of servers, you don't really think they are only listening and data mining stuff that is related to terrorism or national security, do you?  

So, is the USA debt repayable?   It doesn't matter... we are all doomed  


I feel like I have slipped passed the line of a rational individual to a conspiracy theorist. I am going to go crawl into a cave now...    

[Hawker]

It is not a matter of hope, just realism based on what I know. I've simply accepted the inevitable outcome of the events that have occurred over the last 100 years or so. I think those that don't wake up to the world around them may find themselves blindsided. I know I sound pessimistic, but actually I am hopeful for the future.

The 2008 crash was real and felt by everyone, it surprises me how quickly everyone just forgot because our government said "don't worry we got it!". They just kept doing the same thing they did before after that, and nothing good will come of it as it didn't before. There is plenty of recent economic evidence to support a simple truth that we are not headed for a nice and happy world soon. I refuse to simply watch American Idol and pretend the world is OK like other people knowing such things are going on this very second that caused a global recession last time. Our governments and banks are all liars and thieves, I look after me and mine. I hope I'm wrong, but the consequences are too great if I am right to ignore.

^ This
... Although I do tend to be pessimistic as well. I do not care much about the financials in this situation, as I don't believe there is much hope from this end.

...snip...

Another person who when faced with facts that say all is well says "I don't care about facts - there must be a crisis."

Why do so many people find it hard to accept that things are fine?

[myrkul]

Why do so many people find it hard to accept that things are fine?

How much are you paid per post, Hawker?

[Hawker]

Why do so many people find it hard to accept that things are fine?

How much are you paid per post, Hawker?

Not as much as you Mr. 10k posts

[myrkul]

Why do so many people find it hard to accept that things are fine?

How much are you paid per post, Hawker?

Not as much as you Mr. 10k posts

This is a labor of love. I don't get paid.

[deadweasel]

Why do so many people find it hard to accept that things are fine?

How much are you paid per post, Hawker?

Not as much as you Mr. 10k posts

This is a labor of love. I don't get paid.

There is no good or bad, but thinking makes it so.

[sangaman]

There's tons of false information and incorrect claims in this thread.

All US federal "debt" can be trivially repaid, even the entirety of it right now. The United States has an infinite supply of US dollars. Treasury bonds, which are considered "debt," are tools for controlling interest rates and are not at all necessary for funding government spending, even deficit spending. Physically printing money is not even necessary for spending, as merely increasing the balance of the checking account of a government worker or contractor is usually sufficient. I don't know about you guys, but I don't touch 98% of the USD that I spend.

The federal government can never be like Greece because it can never run out of the currency it uses to spend. State governments, on the other hand, do have the capacity to run out of USD and default.

It's illogical for any entity to ever be in shortage of something which it has unlimited access to.

The fact is, the government could stop issuing treasury bonds altogether. The federal debt would plummet and maybe people will realize that it's not all about the debt.

It's not exactly a fair system and it's an easy one for a government to exploit or abuse and wind up demolishing its currency. That's why there's bitcoin.

[myrkul]

All US federal "debt" can be trivially repaid, even the entirety of it right now. The United States has an infinite supply of US dollars.

Theoretically. They could, did they want to go the way of Zimbabwe, Wiemar Germany, and so many others, just lean on that "0" key until the "debt" is gone.

There's lots of reasons why they don't do that, though.

[Nite69]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trillion_dollar_coin

[farfiman]

Why do so many people find it hard to accept that things are fine?

The one and only reason "things are fine" is because the US dollar is still ( for now) the world reserve currency.
But that fact is changing slowly but surely. How long can the US pull this off? Could be a year, 5 , maybe even 10.
But after that the US is doomed to sink out of their world power status.

[Hawker]

Why do so many people find it hard to accept that things are fine?

The one and only reason "things are fine" is because the US dollar is still ( for now) the world reserve currency.
But that fact is changing slowly but surely. How long can the US pull this off? Could be a year, 5 , maybe even 10.
But after that the US is doomed to sink out of their world power status.

The dollar will be a world reserve currency until something better, that is acceptable to central bankers, comes along.  Same for sterling and the yen and perhaps the euro.  And there really isn't any fiat currency around with better fundamentals than the dollar.