[ANN] Elacoin | Released | Fair Elastic Scrypt Mining | No Premine

[hercules]

Update of ELACOIN reward?

the main attraction and idea behind this coin is a proportional block reward to diff, but it's chunked off at 24 difficulty. we may or may not make it to that point.

to make it more attractive, i suggest we move up to unitary reward with difficulty. 1 diff = 1 coin (now). 2 diff = 2 coins. (rounded down).

Hmm, this is a case of miners voting to increase rewards to themselves, by a rather significant amount.  I suppose you're free to do what you want to, as is the population still bothering mining the coin.  But if a little bit of something (like inflation) is good for a coin, then a lot of something must be even better, right?  Why stop at increasing the reward only by this amount?  I bet even more of the miners would be behind the idea of increasing inflation even further than your proposal.  It won't be particularly great for actual use of the currency for any real transactional purpose though, but I suspect that's not really what's on anyone's mind as the future of Elacoin, if you guys are already pushing to jack up the rate of inflation by an extraordinary amount?

How about this as an even better (for late adopter miners) proposal, taking the idea of increasing your own mining rewards and rate of inflation even further:

Reward = 10^(((int)diff)-1)

Diff 1 = 1 coin (now)
Diff 2 = 10 coins
Diff 3 = 100 coins
Diff 4 = 1000 coins
etc..

we'd have to AGAIN repost code for this, and coordinate a blockchain fork.

Oy...  Another case where anyone that doesn't believe changes should be made is effectively kicked off your "new and improved" blockchain by not adopting the changed client code, enforced through collusion with pool owners to effectively 51% anyone "not going along with the plan"?

I think that in such case the inflation would be too high... What happens if it reaches the former feathercoin difficulty? 10^(187) coins per block look a bit too much for me.

What if you keep the actual inflation rate of 1 coin per 24 points of difficulty, but split the increase for each difficulty change? So it is like the actual expression WITHOUT the rounding to integer:

Diff 1 = 1 coin
Diff 2 = 1 + 1/23 coin
Diff 3 = 1 + 2/23 coin
Diff 4 = 1 + 3/23 coin
...
Diff 24 = 1 + 23/23 coin = 2 coins
Diff 25 = 2 + 1/23 coins

And so on.

[thepj]

Diff 1 = mine ltc
Diff 2 = mine ltc
Diff 3 = mine ltc
Diff 4 = mine ltc
...
Diff 24 = mine ltc
Diff 25 = mine ltc

And so on.

[WindMaster]

I think that in such case the inflation would be too high... What happens if it reaches the former feathercoin difficulty? 10^(187) coins per block look a bit too much for me.

Hehe, true.  My point was that it appears miners are deciding here that they want their rewards to be higher (though, duh, every miner does, that's the nature of greed).  And if they're already proposing to jack up their own rewards, where does one draw the line for how much they should increase their own rewards?

What if you keep the actual inflation rate of 1 coin per 24 points of difficulty, but split the increase for each difficulty change? So it is like the actual expression WITHOUT the rounding to integer:

Diff 1 = 1 coin
Diff 2 = 1 + 1/23 coin
Diff 3 = 1 + 2/23 coin
Diff 4 = 1 + 3/23 coin
...
Diff 24 = 1 + 23/23 coin = 2 coins
Diff 25 = 2 + 1/23 coins

And so on.

I think this is a much better approach, since it is basically in the same spirit as the parameters the coin was originally launched with.  Even if these parameters aren't ideal for late adopter miners that have a fundamental characteristic of greed, it isn't a radical deviation from what everyone understood the parameters to be when they adopted the coin.  If Milkshake screwed up in deciding the reward should be twice as much at difficulty 24 than at difficulty 0, then it is what it is, just as mat5x says:

You are probably right that people should not have put trust in the stemmer if he has no actual trusted experience or expertise. But here we are - what do you advocate now, the coin is out and it is what it is (not that different from any other alt scrypt coin). Should it somehow be shutdown forcefully to waste all the hashing of those that have and are involved?

[Aditer]

Diff 1 = 1 coin
Diff 2 = 1 + 1/23 coin
Diff 3 = 1 + 2/23 coin
Diff 4 = 1 + 3/23 coin
...
Diff 24 = 1 + 23/23 coin = 2 coins
Diff 25 = 2 + 1/23 coins

And so on.

I suggest additionally to implement a demurrage fee. Demurrage gradually reduces the value of currency held: it is in effect a negative interest rate on currency in circulation. Both inflation (made by mining) and demurrage reduce the purchasing power of money held over time, but the market price should be stable:
1. price of coin should be much more correlated with energy price and GPU depreciation - 1 coin / 1 kW = const
2. demurrage, like negative incentives, makes that a currency would suffer more rapid circulation than competing forms of currency

[Gazylion]

yeah I heard it goes to 2 coins at 24 diff

It should be smooth transition between block reward changes, for example:

sbr - starting block reward
br - block reward

diff < 1 : br = sbr

diff = 1 : br = sbr*√1
diff = 2 : br = sbr*√2
diff = 3 : br = sbr*√3
.
.
.
diff = x : br = sbr*√x

[wesjuhnl]

 This the biggest hype fail alt-coin ever 86 pages and no windows

So you didnt read... there is a windows wallet

[MrWizard]

 This the biggest hype fail alt-coin ever 86 pages and no windows

So you didnt read... there is a windows wallet

There is no official windows client.  Therefore there is no windows wallet.

[MrWizard]

yeah I heard it goes to 2 coins at 24 diff

It should be smooth transition between block reward changes, for example:

sbr - starting block reward
br - block reward

diff < 1 : br = sbr

diff = 1 : br = sbr*√1
diff = 2 : br = sbr*√2
diff = 3 : br = sbr*√3
.
.
.
diff = x : br = sbr*√x

Sqrt(diff), log(diff), or whatever function that provides a non-linear increasing reward is mandatory.  And also no need to round down to the nearest integer.  Fractional rewards must be given.  If this is not done then this is not a colossal fail, it is a fucking colossal fail.

[Mike270]

I suggest additionally to implement a demurrage fee. Demurrage gradually reduces the value of currency held: it is in effect a negative interest rate on currency in circulation. Both inflation (made by mining) and demurrage reduce the purchasing power of money held over time, but the market price should be stable:
1. price of coin should be much more correlated with energy price and GPU depreciation - 1 coin / 1 kW = const
2. demurrage, like negative incentives, makes that a currency would suffer more rapid circulation than competing forms of currency

Hi Aditer,

Demurrage does not decrease the value of currency and it does not reduce the purchasing power - it reduces the amount of currency you hold.

Kind regards
Mike

[Aditer]

Demurrage does not decrease the value of currency and it does not reduce the purchasing power - it reduces the amount of currency you hold.

Right. I should be more precise. 

[mat5x]

Milkshake, where are you?  

Dont need him apparently, and AWOL. Probably floating around these fora building a new identity.

This the biggest hype fail alt-coin ever 86 pages and no windows

What's 'official'? Any scam coin can release a virus/worm/steal your coins client and call it official. Official is what  the community decides. Maybe you audited the code for us (but do we trust you?)
So far so good, according to users of the WinQT binary.

The coin itself is also not described to be fit for any purpose, express or implied, in case you didnt read the disclaimer on the back of each coin.

if a little bit of something (like inflation) is good for a coin, then a lot of something must be even better, right?

Ask the Argentinians. Again. They do this every decade.

No im not advocating exponential rewards. Your hyperbole isn't that useful here. I detect you do have some useful comments but they're always cloaked in overstatement. Can we try a little?

Another case where anyone that doesn't believe changes should be made is effectively kicked off your "new and improved" blockchain by not adopting the changed client code, enforced through collusion with pool owners to effectively 51% anyone "not going along with the plan"?

How did TRC fix their retarg inteval? How is FRC fixing their diff recalculator and retarg now? This isnt to steal coins or 'mid'premine, there's a way to do this without ripping every one off. It's been done before.

What if you keep the actual inflation rate of 1 coin per 24 points of difficulty, but split the increase for each difficulty change? So it is like the actual expression WITHOUT the rounding to integer:

Diff 1 = 1 coin
Diff 2 = 1 + 1/23 coin
Diff 3 = 1 + 2/23 coin
..
Diff 25 = 2 + 1/23 coins

Someone with a serious unsarcastic idea actually discussing things. Thank you!

Yes, this is a pretty good idea. Wasnt sure rewards could be non integer. Apparently they can. Why not 1/24ths instead of 1/23rds? Diff 24 = 1 + 24/24ths = 2  and so on?

I suggest additionally to implement a demurrage fee. Demurrage gradually reduces the value of currency held:

Not sure people dig demurrage. Maybe the economists over in #FRC will win Forbes mag's 'best alt coin of the decade' award after it's chosen for use, but right now the market of miners are speaking and it's consistently seen as 'unprofitable to mine': http://www.coinchoose.com/

I think there's room in the world to get one demurrage'd coin going and entertaining all the economist wonks out there, but you arent going to attract enough of an ideological splitter crowd from it, or hold regular miners to it. Yes, the masses are stupid, we have to move them incrementally towads the light. I agree demurrage is a great idea, but none of these coins will go anywhere if the hashrate goes to and stays at 0. People need to perceive they're at least paying their power costs.

1. price of coin should be much more correlated with energy price and GPU depreciation - 1 coin / 1 kW = const

Technological improvements can cause massive jumps in efficiency. It's very hard to lock the coin to the cost of power (and if you somehow managed to do that, you should call it PowerCoin, oh, already taken). Sides, barring any other fundamental in any of these coins (ie no proven usefulness, except perhaps a shred of it in BTC as a value store that authorities have trouble getting at for Cypriots and Argentines?), they are all running on hope * cost of power as a valuator. Cost of power is always seen as a base hard fundamental, naturally occurring with each coin, depending on the tech of the day (ASICs for BTC are shaking up the fundamentals - as BFL 'actually' ships (?), we'll see the value of BTC rise slower than the difficulty. Already happening. 10% diff+ /2wks isnt being tracked by the value in lockstep.)

It should be smooth transition between block reward changes, for example:

diff = 2 : br = sbr*√2 etc

Fractional rewards must be given.  If this is not done then this is not a colossal fail, it is a fucking colossal fail.

You had me til 'fucking colossal'. Save it for the 'epic fail' early launch posts.

I agree with the smooth block reward increases, great idea. However, changing the fundamental valuation "isnt fair" as WindMaster suggests to those who joined the coin precalculating their reward at diff 2400 / block 5,000,000 being X. If we pull the rug out from their long-term-planning feet now, who are they to ever trust again? Yes a bit of facetiousness on my part there, but he's suggesting optics of sticking to the original premise are worth a huge amount, and Im inclined to agree (though less forcefully).

The smooth transition valuation is great, from Hercules, though Im hearing that not having an exponential decline leads to rampant inflation. Is it dangerous to have a linear relation of reward:diff? Remember we're slowly reducing the reward as block height (~time) increases too, by / (height/194400). Do we need it to be sqrt(diff) or faster reduction?

Thanks for the ideas guys, I think we have a chance of making something of this coin with this idea, which is namely to benefit later miners to maintain a hashrate, without causing exponential rewards for early miners like any altcoin or even bitcoin and its new millionaires.

[Aditer]

Mat5X - Thank you for your comprehensive answer! :-)

PS. I think that the most important problem to resolve now is to find an idea how to create a market where new altcoin can be exchanged for services and other benefits. It is possible - on forum there are a lot of announcements like 'looking for programmer' or 'need help for create an new service' etc., but the market needs a little bit less anonymity and more trust. But how to fulfil these expectations in cryptocoins world?

[super3]

Bounties will be up soon. Also for those who are a little new to linux, and want some help setting stuff up here is a nice little bash script that will go from a clean Debian 6 (x32) install to running. Note this will take a few mins to run:

Code:

apt-get update
apt-get -y install build-essential libssl-dev libdb4.8-dev libdb4.8++-dev libboost-all-dev git
git clone https://github.com/elacoin/elacoin
cd elacoin/src
make -f makefile.unix USE_UPNP=
cp elacoind /usr/bin/elacoind
mkdir /root/.elacoin/
echo rpcuser=CHANGETHIS >> /root/.elacoin/elacoin.conf
echo rpcpassword=CHANGETHIS >> /root/.elacoin/elacoin.conf
echo rpcallowip=127.0.0.1 >> /root/.elacoin/elacoin.conf
elacoind -daemon

You can then use commands:

Code:

elacoind getbalance
elacoind getinfo
elacoind getnewaddress
elacoind sendtoaddress <amount>

[lophie]

I always say to others I am up for any alt coin that honestly tries to tackle a problem and propose a solution, This doesn't, But it confuses me as well and that is why I am interested in it and mining it at the moment.

[jtmart007]

Mat5X - Thank you for your comprehensive answer! :-)

PS. I think that the most important problem to resolve now is to find an idea how to create a market where new altcoin can be exchanged for services and other benefits. It is possible - on forum there are a lot of announcements like 'looking for programmer' or 'need help for create an new service' etc., but the market needs a little bit less anonymity and more trust. But how to fulfil these expectations in cryptocoins world?

Why not FRC?

[super3]

Bounties, including reward fix, are now listed on the main site.

[Aditer]

Mat5X - Thank you for your comprehensive answer! :-)

PS. I think that the most important problem to resolve now is to find an idea how to create a market where new altcoin can be exchanged for services and other benefits. It is possible - on forum there are a lot of announcements like 'looking for programmer' or 'need help for create an new service' etc., but the market needs a little bit less anonymity and more trust. But how to fulfil these expectations in cryptocoins world?

Why not FRC?

Production of coins should take place on the verge of profitability, where the most important factor should be the price of energy. In the case of FRC appeared ASICs, the price is more dependent on the scale of investment than used energy. There is a risk that someone who has extensive resources will invest in mining farm and issue empty coins.

Buying currency at the exchange should be as profitable as its production.

[mat5x]

I always say to others I am up for any alt coin that honestly tries to tackle a problem and propose a solution, This doesn't, But it confuses me as well and that is why I am interested in it and mining it at the moment.

This does tackle the issue of dwindling reward per miner as mining power increases - consider bitcoin. Early adopters are now millionaires. This rubs many the wrong way. Miners are the biggest proponents of any coin's usage, so having an attractive and fair coin will encourage them to hang onto it and continue mining. Ill stop mining BTC soon because there's almost no point for the rewards - of course the market rate will determine if it covers my power cost, but its sitting stable at 100-115, and wont increase as fast as ASICs come out and increase difficulty.

With ELACOIN, however, reward increases with difficulty, which encourages miners to continue mining and reduces the benefits of early miners.

[BrewCrewFan]

I always say to others I am up for any alt coin that honestly tries to tackle a problem and propose a solution, This doesn't, But it confuses me as well and that is why I am interested in it and mining it at the moment.

This does tackle the issue of dwindling reward per miner as mining power increases - consider bitcoin. Early adopters are now millionaires. This rubs many the wrong way. Miners are the biggest proponents of any coin's usage, so having an attractive and fair coin will encourage them to hang onto it and continue mining. Ill stop mining BTC soon because there's almost no point for the rewards - of course the market rate will determine if it covers my power cost, but its sitting stable at 100-115, and wont increase as fast as ASICs come out and increase difficulty.

With ELACOIN, however, reward increases with difficulty, which encourages miners to continue mining and reduces the benefits of early miners.

Shit I gave up on the BTC and LTC the first week I came to the site and life of crypto coins.
What is discoraging is not getting on the new coins is when the dif get too high ( im my case usually anything over 1.5...thank you nvidia ) I get such lower payouts to the point where I am only getting a fraction of a coin per share... now that does not sound too horrible... but when its like .000xxx per it gets rather sicking.

[mat5x]

With ELACOIN, however, reward increases with difficulty, which encourages miners to continue mining and reduces the benefits of early miners.

Shit I gave up on the BTC and LTC the first week I came to the site and life of crypto coins.
What is discoraging is not getting on the new coins is when the dif get too high ( im my case usually anything over 1.5...thank you nvidia ) I get such lower payouts to the point where I am only getting a fraction of a coin per share... now that does not sound too horrible... but when its like .000xxx per it gets rather sicking.

ELACOIN was supposed to do that - make mining proportional to the diff, so any particular miner's power nets him the same amount of coins ongoing. This would inflate the currency as a whole, but then again the incredible DEFLATION of bitcoin may be too strong a factor for it to be useful except as a store of value (that people trace LTC against, and LTC that people trade ALT-C's against, it seems).

Inflation or increase of the money supply may devalue the coin, but there IS no value to the coin at all if there are no users or miners of it. Having the reward track the difficulty roughly approximates the # of contributors active. (Though that makes it interesting - those who arent mining but using the coin otherwise, how can we track that? Perhaps days-destroyed based block reward

(Save that for destroycoin! lol.)