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Author Topic: Is BitCoin forever broken!? WTF IS THIS SHIT  (Read 2033 times)
BitHits
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May 14, 2013, 07:38:09 AM
 #1



Seriously! How is that at all justified ?

Also this



And this


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dhenson
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May 14, 2013, 07:44:16 AM
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Is your balance comprised of many small amounts spread across many different addresses?

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transaction_fees
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May 14, 2013, 07:55:38 AM
 #3

Your wallet is full of "dust" transaction's, which are really small payment amounts, most likely from satoshidice. The fee structure means that it costs more BTC in tx fees to spend these than they are worth.

This is the one of the reasons the dev's plan to make those changes regarding tx-fees & pico-transactions in 0.8.2 (you can't send 1 satoshi payments etc etc).

The current way Bitcoin works is like this, if someone sends you 1 satoshi it's going to cost 0.0005BTC in fees to spend it. Everyone on the forums are freaking out about the plans to remove pico-tx's and are calling the devs all sorts of things claiming its "censorship" or that they were paid to do it, yet we can't even spend pico-transactions right now.  Roll Eyes

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May 14, 2013, 08:02:19 AM
 #4



Seriously! How is that at all justified ?

Also this



And this



Actually you can spend these, but you need to use RAW Tranasctions API.

However I do not recommend doing it if you are unexperienced. You also risk losing the money if you don't include enough fees. Miners might include such transaction in a block, but they might not - it will be forever stuck in a transaction "limbo", unless you resend it with enough fees (which is also complicated).

BitHits
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May 14, 2013, 08:02:34 AM
 #5

So basically the root of the problem is the horrendously flawed TX Fee system itself.

SoH, You got your NFTX Client updated! Awesome work.

Any chance you can produce binaries for that ? I swear if someone made public binaries of that client available. It would be adopted as much as the 'Official' client in no time!

I havent done RAW tx yet. I've done SendMany. Still gotta look into RAW. I mean I'm not looking to send with NO TX Fee at all. But at the very least a responsibly proportionate fee! Damn!

I'll be making a Bounty shortly for someone to compile that. But I mean if I could get it direct compiled from you I'd tip you some BTC or a nice amount of BTE Tongue I will be spreading it and mirroring it far and wide.

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May 14, 2013, 08:34:10 AM
 #6

I had the same problem, and for the adventurous, have put together a script based on the raw transaction API of bitcoind (http://www.domob.eu/projects/coinCollection.php).  For me it works fine, and allows to "collect" small transaction outputs into larger ones step by step, without paying fees.  You have to be willing to wait some time for a miner to pick up your free transactions, but if you are patient, it works.

BTW, in my opinion this also *benefits* the whole network - because it shrinks the UTXO set, helping every validating node.

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May 14, 2013, 09:41:12 AM
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I had the same problem, and for the adventurous, have put together a script based on the raw transaction API of bitcoind (http://www.domob.eu/projects/coinCollection.php).  For me it works fine, and allows to "collect" small transaction outputs into larger ones step by step, without paying fees.  You have to be willing to wait some time for a miner to pick up your free transactions, but if you are patient, it works.

BTW, in my opinion this also *benefits* the whole network - because it shrinks the UTXO set, helping every validating node.

I call this "BitDust Farming" and think it is an opening where I can see the free market fulfilling both needs ... moving 'uneconomic' Txout out of UTXO set and giving rawtx gurus with time on their hands a way to make some bitcoin ... just email all your worthless, dust choked wallets to the bit dust farmers who'll probably give you a few millbits for it ... anywhere you see a rubbish pile there are always people raking over it ...

... as the old Yorkshire saying goes "there's money in muck"

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May 14, 2013, 09:52:10 AM
 #8

SoH, You got your NFTX Client updated! Awesome work.

Any chance you can produce binaries for that ? I swear if someone made public binaries of that client available. It would be adopted as much as the 'Official' client in no time!

NFTF fork won't help you with this. Well, it may help get lower fees, but completely getting rid of fees will probably not be possible.
NFTF does enforce fees in all cases except of one.

Also, what kind of binaries you want (what system) ?

It is pretty easy to create binaries for everything except Windows, as there is little difference between NFTF and mainstream client. If creating binaries for mainstream client will work, so will NFTF.


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May 14, 2013, 09:54:20 AM
 #9

So basically the root of the problem is the horrendously flawed TX Fee system itself.

I wouldn't say the system is very flawed. You need to remember that Bitcoin is still highly experimental.

You need to wait a few years to get all the features you want.

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May 14, 2013, 11:40:39 AM
 #10

just email all your worthless, dust choked wallets to the bit dust farmers who'll probably give you a few millbits for it

So you trade in your dust for... dust?
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May 14, 2013, 12:01:35 PM
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just email all your worthless, dust choked wallets to the bit dust farmers who'll probably give you a few millbits for it

So you trade in your dust for... dust?

Yea that didnt make any sense? Also, the Bitcoin client should contain the option to be able to spend certain Bitcoins, so that you can handpick what address you send from, and not just to. Right now, dust is going to clutter even more if we dont get hang of where all Bitcoins are stored and how we access them. It should be possible to merge keys (without having to go through a miner).

<helo> funny that this proposal grows the maximum block size to 8GB, and is seen as a compromise
<helo> oh, you don't like a 20x increase? well how about 8192x increase?
<JackH> lmao
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May 14, 2013, 01:36:32 PM
 #12

just email all your worthless, dust choked wallets to the bit dust farmers who'll probably give you a few millbits for it

So you trade in your dust for... dust?

Yea that didnt make any sense? Also, the Bitcoin client should contain the option to be able to spend certain Bitcoins, so that you can handpick what address you send from, and not just to. Right now, dust is going to clutter even more if we dont get hang of where all Bitcoins are stored and how we access them. It should be possible to merge keys (without having to go through a miner).
hahahahahhaha

even if all the dust are at one address, your transaction size will still be huge.

It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.

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May 14, 2013, 06:58:13 PM
 #13

just email all your worthless, dust choked wallets to the bit dust farmers who'll probably give you a few millbits for it

So you trade in your dust for... dust?

Well, no.  In the scenario described, someone would send me a wallet containing 100's of dust transactions.  I can then use them up step by step, and in the end I have a single output with the full balance.  It of course depends on how large that one is, but maybe one or two orders of magnitude larger - so maybe no longer "dust".

From that, I could send you back half as a single, spendable, non-dust output for you, and keep the other half for my effort.  Or so.

BTW, if anyone is interested, I would do that for real.  Sounds like an interesting idea, and while I don't expect to get rich off it, I will enjoy watching the "non-dust" balance grow. Smiley

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May 14, 2013, 07:10:25 PM
 #14

The same thing can happen at the supermarket. Let's say you want to buy a walnut from the bulk isle. It cost $0.004 for the nut. But when you go to pay, they can't take less than a penny.  Micro-transactions are not for dollars either.

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May 14, 2013, 09:38:59 PM
 #15

In the scenario described, someone would send me a wallet containing 100's of dust transactions.  I can then use them up step by step, and in the end I have a single output with the full balance.  It of course depends on how large that one is, but maybe one or two orders of magnitude larger - so maybe no longer "dust".

From that, I could send you back half as a single, spendable, non-dust output for you, and keep the other half for my effort.  Or so.

BTW, if anyone is interested, I would do that for real.  Sounds like an interesting idea, and while I don't expect to get rich off it, I will enjoy watching the "non-dust" balance grow. Smiley

As long as the total of the "dust" balance was greater than 0.01 BTC, I'd probably do it for free (instead of keeping half), although I certainly wouldn't turn down any gratuity that might be sent my way as a "thanks".

stevegee58
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May 14, 2013, 09:42:18 PM
 #16

I had the same problem, and for the adventurous, have put together a script based on the raw transaction API of bitcoind (http://www.domob.eu/projects/coinCollection.php).  For me it works fine, and allows to "collect" small transaction outputs into larger ones step by step, without paying fees.  You have to be willing to wait some time for a miner to pick up your free transactions, but if you are patient, it works.

BTW, in my opinion this also *benefits* the whole network - because it shrinks the UTXO set, helping every validating node.

Thanks alot for that dood.  I've been meaning to write my own but never quite got around to it.

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May 14, 2013, 11:07:53 PM
 #17

just email all your worthless, dust choked wallets to the bit dust farmers who'll probably give you a few millbits for it

So you trade in your dust for... dust?

Well, no.  In the scenario described, someone would send me a wallet containing 100's of dust transactions.  I can then use them up step by step, and in the end I have a single output with the full balance.  It of course depends on how large that one is, but maybe one or two orders of magnitude larger - so maybe no longer "dust".

From that, I could send you back half as a single, spendable, non-dust output for you, and keep the other half for my effort.  Or so.

BTW, if anyone is interested, I would do that for real.  Sounds like an interesting idea, and while I don't expect to get rich off it, I will enjoy watching the "non-dust" balance grow. Smiley

Thanks for explaining it in detail ... I just don't have the energy much anymore ... automate it as much as you can and you might be able to make some "real" coin out of it  Wink

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May 15, 2013, 01:12:21 AM
 #18



Good, I hope your wallet never works again.

PS This guy is doing the same thing to other people's wallets, and has been trying to create the most blockchain bloat and dust possible for the least amount in fees with his scam "faucet" ad sites.
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May 15, 2013, 01:18:39 AM
 #19

OP, read this too if you haven't already:

http://bitcoinfees.com
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May 17, 2013, 06:45:23 AM
 #20

OP, read this too if you haven't already:

http://bitcoinfees.com


this was very insightful, now I understand these blockchains quite a bit more!

wow thats actually amazing.

summary: every transaction to your wallet isn't broken up into units of bitcoins, it stays the size it was sent to you as, with a link back to the previous wallet or transaction or block in a giant linked list or something.
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