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Author Topic: Mt.Gox and void trades: Force Majeure  (Read 19172 times)
bitsalame
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Preaching the gospel of Satoshi


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June 21, 2011, 11:22:46 AM
 #41

"Force Majeure" is anything independ of us, not the same thing as "Act of God".

Please read what I say.
For Force Majeure requires three conditions:

1) Externality: you must not be related to the event.
We don't know. You've been lying to us from the very beginning. You claimed that was only one account holding 500,000 BTC?
Show us the anonymous transaction blocks that prove this account existed. Maybe it is your account and you don't want to admit it?
Anyway, lets assume for the example that genuinely you are not related. You might pass here.

2) Unpredictability: The attacks must have not be foreseen.
If you knew you had a vulnerability and didn't fix it (for whatever reason) you are totally culpable.
You knew your site was vulnerable. You probably were sleeping like a baby every night: waking up every three hours.
You allowed the access of this "auditor" with "read only" privileges, YOU KNOW THE RISKS OF ALLOWING A THIRD PARTY TO YOUR BACKEND, DON'T YOU?
YOU KNOW THE RISKS OF HASHING WITH MD5, DON'T YOU?
YOU KNOW THE RISKS OF NOT FILTERING OUT WEAK PASSWORDS, ISN'T THAT STANDARD PROCEDURE?
You were receiving floods of emails about several exploits and vulnerabilities in your site.
Don't fuck with us, your lies are unsustainable. You fail miserably in this condition.

3) Irresistibility: basically proving that it wasn't preventable.
Any 18 years old experienced with programming would know how to prevent half of the vulnerabilities of your site.
I would have started by not using MD5 to hash the passwords and having a very simple Javascript filtering weak passwords.
Lets not talk about the potential casualties from the explotation of CSRF vulnerabilities.
The site had more holes than Swiss cheese.
90% of this damage was preventable? YES, IT WAS.

Force Majeur??, STFU!

hey jerk; go back to where u came from 2d ago!

So what, instead of analyzing his behavior, now you are attacking me with Ad Hominems?
So being registered in a freaking forum for too little time disqualifies my valid criticism?
I am right, you know it. Anyone with a iota of rationality knows it.
Now you are covering him because your personal connection with him, do you think that this favoritism will actually help the community?
I am speechless.
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The_Duke
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June 21, 2011, 11:22:53 AM
 #42

The real way of showing what we think of the situation is of course by just moving to a different trade site as soon as MtGox re-opens.

NOT a member of the so called ''Bitcoin Foundation''. Choose Independence!

Donate to the BitKitty Foundation instead! -> 1Fd4yLneGmxRHnPi6WCMC2hAMzaWvDePF9 <-
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June 21, 2011, 11:23:42 AM
 #43

A Force Majeure must be included in a contract to be valid. There is no contract between mtgox and users; hence no case for force majeure.
But then how can you claim that they are not allowed to do a rollback if you don't have a contract with them?
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June 21, 2011, 11:24:21 AM
 #44

As I said, if his lawyer suggested Force Majeure, he must be drunk.
I really hope to see Mark in court, and don't forget to bring your real life version of Lionel Hutz.

Our ToS writes hacking as included in Force Majeure. If you didn't read it that's your own problem.

I hope you won't use MD5 hashing again. Use SHA-2, for god's sake!

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June 21, 2011, 11:24:37 AM
 #45

As I said, if his lawyer suggested Force Majeure, he must be drunk.
I really hope to see Mark in court, and don't forget to bring your real life version of Lionel Hutz.

Our ToS writes hacking as included in Force Majeure. If you didn't read it that's your own problem.

A ToS isn't a legally binding contract, I hope you know... You'd better lawyer up.
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June 21, 2011, 11:27:56 AM
 #46


Can you just use your brain instead of becoming a conspiranoid?
I am striking both stupid users and mtgox.
Boths have their faults, but if you read my thread it is more than evident that MtGox is lying in front of our faces.

Something really embarrasing must have happened that they are trying to cover it with childish and unsustainable lies.
There is a very clear trend here: from denying any hacking happening in the site, from claiming that there wasn't any CSRF exploit "logged" (ORLY do they get logged?), and now their lousy attempt of using legal terminologies improperly trying to to exonerate themselves from any kind of liabilities.

You, sir, are responsible for the security and stability of the site.
You can't escape from that reponsability.
You are responsible for the stability of the site.
We trusted you with our money.
You are deepening the insult of your incompetence covering lies with more lies.

You-are-pathetic

who is pathetic?  u register 2d ago AFTER all the events happen, give yourself a nick like that, and scream bloody murder against MT and mtgox and then call me a conspiranoid?

you had no money on the line in bitcoin, you have no interest in bitcoin (other than seeing it fail), you have no interest in mtgox, you have no interest in being a gentleman, you should leave.
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June 21, 2011, 11:29:55 AM
 #47

- I think MagicalTux is doing a good job.

Im happy that he's still there and i can use his tradingplattform. If i dont want to use it anymore i can go.

Im afraid that people here cry so loud agains MagicalTux that he just could say - kiss my as. And then we 'really see satoshi running with our money'.

So, in the end. Who needs the other more? The Chicken or the Egg?

If MagicalTux runns away now because of you - that would be a scandal. For bitcoin itself !!!

This hackerthing 2 days ago? Well, in the kitchen there is heat. Shit happens. I could get some 100 coins at a good price because i was solvent at the crash. Now comes a rollback. OK. Why not. Its just fair. Lets trade regular again. Im not afraid of it and i dont need stolen coins.


http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=20563.0

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BubbleBoy
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June 21, 2011, 11:30:23 AM
 #48

90% of this damage was preventable? YES, IT WAS.

What damage ? When the exchange reopens you will find your $ and BTC balances untouched. The most you could claim is that you were denied service for a few days.
The whole debate about force majeure would excuse mtgox from loosing your funds to hackers, at which users could claim mtgox did not do it's best job to secure the service. It would really for a court to decide, but only if funds were lost. For example if the rollback did not happen, it would apply to the original owner of the 500.000 BTC.

Since no funds were lost (the small withdrawals that lead to negative balances will be covered by mtgox), but only imaginary profits, the whole debate is baseless. The profits were never yours to begin with. You have no proof you actually bought 250.000 at 0.01 $/BTC. None whatsoever. You would be thrown out of any court.
Horkabork
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June 21, 2011, 11:32:40 AM
 #49


So what, instead of analyzing his behavior, now you are attacking me with Ad Hominems?
So being registered in a freaking forum for too little time disqualifies my valid criticism?
I am right, you know it. Anyone with a iota of rationality knows it.
Now you are covering him because your personal connection with him, do you think that this favoritism will actually help the community?
I am speechless.

Whoa now. His font is much bigger than yours, and it's bolded. That means he's right by at least 4 typography point sizes. I don't think you have a leg to stand on in this argument, unless you start using an even bigger size and some annoying font like
Impact
.

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Batouzo
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June 21, 2011, 11:33:34 AM
 #50

For Force Majeure requires three conditions:
[...]
hey jerk; go back to where u came from 2d ago!

Your ad hominem attack is proving that even a new member of forum can say more correct and informative things that "hero member" as you.
Batouzo
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June 21, 2011, 11:35:19 AM
 #51

What damage ? When the exchange reopens you will find your $ and BTC balances untouched. The most you could claim is that you were denied service for a few days.

What with orders @10 @12 @15 placed at least partially (imho mostly) by legitimate users.
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June 21, 2011, 11:38:32 AM
 #52

I am speechless.

LOL!
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June 21, 2011, 11:41:04 AM
 #53

Your ad hominem attack is proving that even a new member of forum can say more correct and informative things that "hero member" as you.

wow, you sound intelligent.  let me define from Wikipedia:

The ad hominem is normally described as a logical fallacy,[2] but it is not always fallacious; in some instances, questions of personal conduct, character, motives, etc., are legitimate and relevant to the issue.[3]
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June 21, 2011, 11:42:10 AM
 #54

who is pathetic?  u register 2d ago AFTER all the events happen, give yourself a nick like that, and scream bloody murder against MT and mtgox and then call me a conspiranoid?
you had no money on the line in bitcoin, you have no interest in bitcoin (other than seeing it fail), you have no interest in mtgox, you have no interest in being a gentleman, you should leave.

1) you are pathetic (at least in this posts above) - for the reasons that follow:
2) you made ad ad hominem attack - actually it was all that your post was
3) you imply that person must be stupid because he just joined our community. This is a fallacy. How you know how long he used BTC overall (even if that mattered) - or better, how knowledgeable he is in business/finances/trading/law?
If Benjamin Franklin would join some local group of people talking about a politics, would you also imply he doesn't know shit, just because he just-joined?
4) "you had no money on the line in bitcoin" - how the hell do you know that?
5) you say that if he has no money on the line then he should not speak. Then what, if soliders would be murdering people in country X then you should not say anything bad (or good) about it unless you have family in country X?

Seriously.


EDITED:
Quote from: cypherdoc
The ad hominem is normally described as a logical fallacy,[2] but it is not always fallacious; in some instances, questions of personal conduct, character, motives, etc., are legitimate and relevant to the issue.
Sure but his motives are not relevant to his opinion how law would work here. Just the law matters no matter who quotes it.
aral
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June 21, 2011, 11:45:37 AM
 #55

Your ad hominem attack is proving that even a new member of forum can say more correct and informative things that "hero member" as you.

wow, you sound intelligent.  let me define from Wikipedia:

The ad hominem is normally described as a logical fallacy,[2] but it is not always fallacious; in some instances, questions of personal conduct, character, motives, etc., are legitimate and relevant to the issue.[3]

sure, it wasn't an ad hominem attack.  it was a childish insult.  how old are you?  because you are acting like a stroppy 12-year-old
cypherdoc
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June 21, 2011, 11:45:51 AM
 #56

- I think MagicalTux is doing a good job.

Im happy that he is still there and i can use his tradingplattform. If i dont want to use it anymore a can go.

Im afraid that people here cry so loud agains MagicalTux that he just could say - kiss my as. And then we 'really see sakoshi running with our money'.

So, in the end. Who needs the other more? The Chicken or the Egg?

If MagicalTux runns awai now becauce of you - that would be a scandal. For bitcoin itself !!!

This hackerthing 2 days ago? Well, in the kitchen there is heat. Shit happens. I could get some 100 coins at a good price because i was solvent at the crash. Now comes a rollback. OK. Why not. Its just fair. Lets trade regular again. Im not afraid of it and i dont need stolen coins.


http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=20563.0

Looks like bitsalame has started a new trend... SPEAK LOUD IF YOU WANT TO PROVE YOUR POINT, DAMNIT!



If MagicalTux runns awai now becauce of you - that would be a scandal. For bitcoin itself !!!


maybe this is what they want?
klaus
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June 21, 2011, 11:49:01 AM
 #57

maybe this is what they want?

LOL. Maybe. I had the same idea, just a minute ago ....

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cypherdoc
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June 21, 2011, 11:50:48 AM
 #58

the trolls are back b/c they sense the tide is turning back in favor of btc and mtgox.    sorry boys, nice try.
klaus
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June 21, 2011, 11:51:35 AM
 #59

Looks like bitsalame has started a new trend... SPEAK LOUD IF YOU WANT TO PROVE YOUR POINT, DAMNIT!

sorry. i changed.

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June 21, 2011, 11:52:41 AM
 #60

Sure but his motives are not relevant to his opinion how law would work here.

oh, but they most certainly are.
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