Bitcoin Forum
December 08, 2016, 02:36:44 PM *
News: To be able to use the next phase of the beta forum software, please ensure that your email address is correct/functional.
 
   Home   Help Search Donate Login Register  
Pages: « 1 2 3 [4] 5 6 7 »  All
  Print  
Author Topic: Mt.Gox and void trades: Force Majeure  (Read 19177 times)
cypherdoc
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764



View Profile
June 21, 2011, 11:56:03 AM
 #61

who is pathetic?  u register 2d ago AFTER all the events happen, give yourself a nick like that, and scream bloody murder against MT and mtgox and then call me a conspiranoid?
you had no money on the line in bitcoin, you have no interest in bitcoin (other than seeing it fail), you have no interest in mtgox, you have no interest in being a gentleman, you should leave.

1) you are pathetic (at least in this posts above) - for the reasons that follow:
2) you made ad ad hominem attack - actually it was all that your post was
3) you imply that person must be stupid because he just joined our community. This is a fallacy. How you know how long he used BTC overall (even if that mattered) - or better, how knowledgeable he is in business/finances/trading/law?
If Benjamin Franklin would join some local group of people talking about a politics, would you also imply he doesn't know shit, just because he just-joined?
4) "you had no money on the line in bitcoin" - how the hell do you know that?
5) you say that if he has no money on the line then he should not speak. Then what, if soliders would be murdering people in country X then you should not say anything bad (or good) about it unless you have family in country X?

Seriously.


EDITED:
Quote from: cypherdoc
The ad hominem is normally described as a logical fallacy,[2] but it is not always fallacious; in some instances, questions of personal conduct, character, motives, etc., are legitimate and relevant to the issue.
Sure but his motives are not relevant to his opinion how law would work here. Just the law matters no matter who quotes it.


sure, i could be wrong but i see these as all logical deductions based on his behavior, the facts, and how he is conducting himself.
1481207804
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1481207804

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1481207804
Reply with quote  #2

1481207804
Report to moderator
1481207804
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1481207804

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1481207804
Reply with quote  #2

1481207804
Report to moderator
1481207804
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1481207804

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1481207804
Reply with quote  #2

1481207804
Report to moderator
Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction. Advertise here.
bitsalame
Donator
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 616


Preaching the gospel of Satoshi


View Profile
June 21, 2011, 11:56:25 AM
 #62


Can you just use your brain instead of becoming a conspiranoid?
I am striking both stupid users and mtgox.
Boths have their faults, but if you read my thread it is more than evident that MtGox is lying in front of our faces.

Something really embarrasing must have happened that they are trying to cover it with childish and unsustainable lies.
There is a very clear trend here: from denying any hacking happening in the site, from claiming that there wasn't any CSRF exploit "logged" (ORLY do they get logged?), and now their lousy attempt of using legal terminologies improperly trying to to exonerate themselves from any kind of liabilities.

You, sir, are responsible for the security and stability of the site.
You can't escape from that reponsability.
You are responsible for the stability of the site.
We trusted you with our money.
You are deepening the insult of your incompetence covering lies with more lies.

You-are-pathetic

who is pathetic?  u register 2d ago AFTER all the events happen, give yourself a nick like that, and scream bloody murder against MT and mtgox and then call me a conspiranoid?

you had no money on the line in bitcoin, you have no interest in bitcoin (other than seeing it fail), you have no interest in mtgox, you have no interest in being a gentleman, you should leave.

Your reasoning skills are evidently subpar, especially considering your reliance of informal fallacies and irrelevant peculiarities as bases of your deduction.
Obviously it is a waste of time to discuss with you, but for the record I have a substantial amount of bitcoins and dollars in MtGox.

I deeply trusted its management. I appreciate the fast reactiveness to the damage.
What I don't appreciate is the shortsightedness.
What I really strongly hate is that they are trying to wash their hands from it, at all costs.

And the series of lies after lies after lies after lies:
1) Denying any hacking involved, therefore they aren't liable. (check their official statement at mtgox.com)
2) When the evidence was overwhelming, they tried to "outsource" the responsible (the so called "auditor"), therefore they aren't responsible. (well, never showed proof of it either)
3) They say they the discovered CSRF weren't never used, therefore they aren't liable. (check the support emails they reply  to those who report CSRF exploits)

and now... the best of all of them
4) Hacking is Force Majeure, therefore they are exonerated from any responsability.
(an argument that is very amateurish. It is not Force Majeure, it is not your definition in your ToS what matters, it is the law what matters. If that is your defense, really, your lawyer is no better than Lionel Hutz.


Be fucking honest: what the hell really happened behind the screens?
How deep was the system compromised?
What exploits were used?
How many accounts were compromised?
What have you learned from it?
We saw your good reactiveness and quick damage control, now what proactive measures have you taken to not allow it to happen again?

Stop the lies, be honest Mark. We know you got PWNED.
AnD BE FUCKING RESPONSIBLE: YOU SCREWED UP BIG TIME, IT WAS PREVENTABLE.
You are trying to escape the costly compensations, but you must amend your mistakes.
Earn our trust back.

PS: to the guy askigg about the damage, are you kidding? Leaking the userbase is not something we can just let it pass.
A lot of people, people who were early adopters lost their bitcoins because of the leak, because they reuse it in other sites. (40/60 fault. 40% fault of the user for weak password, and 60% MtGox because for LAME security and Because HE SHOULD KNOW BETTER).
Also all of the 60K users now have their private emails publicized and now are definitely gonna be in the lists of spammers and scammers. More than one fell into the spoofed phishing attempt. Spammers know that everyone in the list have deep interests in libertarian ideals, digital currencies, heavy computer users, miners, programmers, geeks, nerds, enthusiasts, etc... It is a great profile to market.
cypherdoc
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764



View Profile
June 21, 2011, 12:08:24 PM
 #63


Your reasoning skills are evidently subpar, especially considering your reliance of informal fallacies and irrelevant peculiarities as bases of your deduction.
Obviously it is a waste of time to discuss with you, but for the record I have a substantial amount of bitcoins and dollars in MtGox.

I deeply trusted its management. I appreciate the fast reactiveness to the damage.
What I don't appreciate is the shortsightedness.
What I really strongly hate is that they are trying to wash their hands from it, at all costs.

And the series of lies after lies after lies after lies:
1) Denying any hacking involved, therefore they aren't liable. (check their official statement at mtgox.com)
2) When the evidence was overwhelming, they tried to "outsource" the responsible (the so called "auditor"), therefore they aren't responsible. (well, never showed proof of it either)
3) They say they the discovered CSRF weren't never used, therefore they aren't liable. (check the support emails they reply  to those who report CSRF exploits)

and now... the best of all of them
4) Hacking is Force Majeure, therefore they are exonerated from any responsability.
(an argument that is very amateurish. It is not Force Majeure, it is not your definition in your ToS what matters, it is the law what matters. If that is your defense, really, your lawyer is no better than Lionel Hutz.


Be fucking honest: what the hell really happened behind the screens?
How deep was the system compromised?
What exploit were used?
How many accounts were compromised?
What have you learned from it?
What measures have you taken to not allow it to happen again?

Stop the lies, be honest Mark.
What the hell happened, earn our trust back.

PS: to the guy askigg about the damage, are you kidding? Leaking the userbase is not something we can just let it pass.
A lot of people, people who were early adopters lost their bitcoins because of the leak, because they reuse it in other sites. (40/60 fault. 40% fault of the user for weak password, and 60% MtGox because for LAME security and Because HE SHOULD KNOW BETTER).
Also all of the 60K users now have their private emails publicized and now are definitely gonna be in the lists of spammers and scammers. More than one fell into the spoofed phishing attempt. Spammers know that everyone in the list have deep interests in libertarian ideals, digital currencies, heavy computer users, miners, programmers, geeks, nerds, enthusiasts, etc... It is a great profile to market.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The_Duke
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 252


Lead Core BitKitty Developer


View Profile
June 21, 2011, 12:16:26 PM
 #64

Up to this topic, I actually felt a bit sorry for Tux and what happened and was under the impression he was honestly trying to fix things... but after seeying the haughtiness in his post... I hope someone does sue him.

NOT a member of the so called ''Bitcoin Foundation''. Choose Independence!

Donate to the BitKitty Foundation instead! -> 1Fd4yLneGmxRHnPi6WCMC2hAMzaWvDePF9 <-
BubbleBoy
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 322



View Profile
June 21, 2011, 12:25:57 PM
 #65

PS: to the guy askigg about the damage, are you kidding? Leaking the userbase is not something we can just let it pass.
A lot of people, people who were early adopters lost their bitcoins because of the leak, because they reuse it in other sites. (40/60 fault. 40% fault of the user for weak password, and 60% MtGox because for LAME security and Because HE SHOULD KNOW BETTER).

There was no implicit or explicit contract for mtgox to act as a password manager and protect you login credentials for other sites. A great number of sites store plain text passwords and a huge number store plain or salted md5 passwords. From an industry best practice point of view, MD5-crypt passwords are regarded as secure without bogging down the authentication server.
Sites do get hacked and do suffer from inside jobs. It's entirely your fault if you chose weak passwords AND reuse them on other sites. mtgox can only be liable for the damage on the system they control; as it seems there's no damage, all balances will be untouched.

Also all of the 60K users now have their private emails publicized and now are definitely gonna be in the lists of spammers and scammers.

Accidentally leaking someone's email is not and cannot be a crime. An email address is public by definition. Sending spam is a crime in some legislations, but to pin that on mtgox would mean to prove they intentionally and malevolently shared the email list with any spammers.
Is it a bad way to treat your customers ? Sure. Can they press criminal charges or request compensation ? Nope.
Batouzo
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 70


View Profile
June 21, 2011, 12:32:36 PM
 #66

sure, i could be wrong but i see these as all logical deductions based on his behavior, the facts, and how he is conducting himself.

If you really see it, then address that, instead of doing childish insults.
The_Duke
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 252


Lead Core BitKitty Developer


View Profile
June 21, 2011, 12:32:45 PM
 #67


Accidentally leaking someone's email is not and cannot be a crime. An email address is public by definition.

Nonsense. My email adress is not public, and unless I give someone permission to publish it, they are not allowed to do so. ANd even if they do, as soon as it is leaked in a context, more than just the adress is leaked, because it is an adress linked to other information. In this case the information that that adress held an account on MtGox.

NOT a member of the so called ''Bitcoin Foundation''. Choose Independence!

Donate to the BitKitty Foundation instead! -> 1Fd4yLneGmxRHnPi6WCMC2hAMzaWvDePF9 <-
aral
Jr. Member
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 42


View Profile
June 21, 2011, 12:44:11 PM
 #68

Is it a bad way to treat your customers ? Sure. Can they press criminal charges or request compensation ? Nope.

I believe they can actually, there is a Japanese data protection law that requires certain precautions are taken to protect users' data, including email addresses.  It is obvious that mtgox hasn't complied with this law, I wonder even if it is a criminal matter and the relevant authorities should be notified.
MeSarah
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 154


View Profile
June 21, 2011, 12:53:34 PM
 #69

Let me quote a part of our generic terms of service about Force Majeure:

Quote
Tibanne Co. Ltd., agents, partners, ICANN, the central registry nor any person involved in the registration will be liable to the customer or any third party for any direct or indirect loss of profits, earnings or business opportunities, damages, expense, or costs resulting directly or indirectly from any failure to perform any obligation or provide service herunder because of any Force Majeure, or governmental acts or directives, strikes, riot or civil commotion, war, hacking, any natural desaster, equipment or facilities shortages which are beeing experienced by providers of telecommunication services generally, or other similar force or condition beyond Tibanne Co. Ltd.‘s reasonable control.

And another one:

Quote
For all services of Tibanne Co. Ltd. liability will be limited to intention and gross negligence.

We had no intention of getting this to happen, and we have followed every industry standard to make this secure. Despite this it happened. We have learnt new things (especially that lots of people want Bitcoin to disappear).

Giving access to areas of a database that are not needed for an auditor todo their job is 'groos negligence'. There is no reason why an auditor needs access the the hashed passwords. What are they going to do check to make sure the hash is correct and why would there be a need for doing so? This would mean that you have a special section on the site for checking the hashed password or god forbid access to the source code.

This is going to be a tought lesson for you and those involed. I think we need to know who this auditor is. Those that want to might want to take action against the auditor.

With that said, I have yet to do business with Mt Gox. But it wont stop me. I am of the opinion that when this set back runs it course that Mt. Gox will be the most secure of the exchanges. It might not sound like it, but Im on your side MagicalTux.

60 GH/s BFL Single SC - Pre-Order Yours Today!
`````` Only $1299.99 - butterflylabs.com ``````
TriumVir
Jr. Member
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 56


View Profile
June 21, 2011, 01:01:27 PM
 #70

Well one thing is for certain: MagicalTux knows as much about the law as he does security . . . which is to say not much at all.

Force Majeure? Is this being discussed with a straight face? Send in the clowns!
Maxxx
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 70



View Profile
June 21, 2011, 01:19:16 PM
 #71

Lol, I haven't commented on this until now but this is laughable.

It was obvious that Mt. Gox was compromised at least a week before this event. There were people claiming that the USD in their accounts had been used to purchase BTC and then withdrawn on multiple forums, including Reddit. This was at least a full week before and leading up to this incident.

Mt. Gox needs to cut their losses and repay the original account owner. You cannot simply "Rollback" the exchange because people have already withdrawn BTC that was involved.

I mean seriously. I'm half expecting MTux to hop on a chopper to a remote island now.

So long and thanks for all the cash!

This Force Majeure is painfully laughable... I almost feel embarrassed.

I'm the biggest Bitcoin supporter I know, but I'm not going to defend the actions of a Bitcoin exchange like this. Tux needs to come out with an official statement soon. No more smoke and mirrors.

Time is money. This means that if you have spare time, you can use it to make money.

Modular, open, and stack-able miner case.
Sukrim
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1848


View Profile
June 21, 2011, 01:34:08 PM
 #72

Just read the ToS of Tibanne, which you (as it seems?!) agreed to when opening an account on MtGox:
http://legal.tibanne.com/

https://bitfinex.com <-- leveraged trading of BTCUSD, LTCUSD and LTCBTC (long and short) - 10% discount on fees for the first 30 days with this refcode: x5K9YtL3Zb
Mail me at Bitmessage: BM-BbiHiVv5qh858ULsyRDtpRrG9WjXN3xf
aral
Jr. Member
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 42


View Profile
June 21, 2011, 01:42:30 PM
 #73

Just read the ToS of Tibanne, which you (as it seems?!) agreed to when opening an account on MtGox:
http://legal.tibanne.com/

I never read that and was not directed to read it during the registration process, so I cannot be said to have agreed with that.  Normal websites do have a 'I have read the ToS' checkbox at least.
Batouzo
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 70


View Profile
June 21, 2011, 01:45:05 PM
 #74

Just read the ToS of Tibanne, which you (as it seems?!) agreed to when opening an account on MtGox:
http://legal.tibanne.com/

I never read that and was not directed to read it during the registration process, so I cannot be said to have agreed with that.  Normal websites do have a 'I have read the ToS' checkbox at least.

No-one cares if you read it; but indeed there should be an  [ ] I have read and agree to ToS   checkbox.  Probably it depends on jurisdiction. Actually, which one counts here, JP or where the user lives or.... ?
NO_SLAVE
Jr. Member
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 56


DEBT IS SLAVERY


View Profile
June 21, 2011, 01:46:33 PM
 #75

I dont give a shit about any of this, I just want my money or BTC back. 
Now please get the site up, this delay is eroding any confidence you garnered by the
public relations campaign youve attmpted in the past couple days.

thanks
dennis_sweden
Jr. Member
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 42


View Profile
June 21, 2011, 01:47:17 PM
 #76

THE LONDON STOCK EXCHANGE PLC has following stipulations regarding "force majeure":

Quote
3. Liability
3.1 Neither party shall be liable to the other for any delay in performance or non-performance of its obligations under this Product Agreement to the extent that such delay or non-performance is caused by a Force Majeure Event.

3.2 In no circumstances (other than circumstances of fraud, dishonesty or wilful misconduct) shall the Exchange be liable for:
(a) any loss or damage caused by computer viruses transmitted through the Site or by email or other electronic delivery of the Product; or

3
(b) loss of profit, goodwill, business opportunity or anticipated savings suffered by the Customer as a result of any breach of duty by the Exchange whether in statute, contract or tort (including negligence).

3.3 Subject to Clause 3.2 the Exchange shall be liable for any loss suffered by the Customer as a result of the Exchange’s breach of duty whether in statute, contract or tort (including negligence) however its liability whether in statute, contract or tort (including negligence) shall be limited to the Agreed Sum per occurrence or series of occurrences arising from a single cause.

Quote
“Force Majeure Event”
means, in relation to a party any event or circumstance:
which is not reasonably foreseeable; and
is beyond that party’s reasonable control; and
prevents or limits the ability of that party to meets its obligations under this Product Agreement.

https://www.services.londonstockexchange.com/exchangecharge/resources/ITC%20Terms%20and%20Conditions.pdf

If applicable to Mtgox (as Mtgox purports to claim) Mtgox is liable in tort law; negligence of known systemic risks of its security.

Mtgox cannot claim "force majeure" either as it was reasonably forseeable and was not beyond Mtgox reasonable control to implement a more rigid security scheme.

Sukrim
Quote
Just read the ToS of Tibanne, which you (as it seems?!) agreed to when opening an account on MtGox:
http://legal.tibanne.com/

These provisions would never be upheld in a court of law. Contracts/sections of contracts are regularly declared void/unapplicable due to a lack of legal adherence.

How can you tell when a politician is lying? His lips are moving. A little girl asked her father, 'do all fairy tales begin with "Once upon a time"? The father replied, 'No, some begin with - If I am elected.' How come political leaders don't have all the answers until they write their memoirs?
airdata
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 406


View Profile
June 21, 2011, 02:39:39 PM
 #77

3) Legal troubles?

Even if dismissed, lawsuits count as "legal troubles".  I personally wasn't affected (fortunately).

Although I have to admit, I am really unsure how you could roll back all the trades or have nothing be stolen... did NOBODY withdraw ANY of the BTC they bought during that time?

Some people did, we'll leave those as negative balance and count it as loss if not solved.

As for lawsuits we got threats only so far.

Mr Tux : Would you be willing to give a ballpark estimate of the amount of btc that were 'successfully' withdrawn before the site went down?
From what I've seen on the forums here and other sites, I'm guessing there are alot of people who would sooner run to trade hill than even up a negative balance on mtgox.
Thanks.

-Airdata
airdata
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 406


View Profile
June 21, 2011, 02:56:03 PM
 #78

Bitsalame : How many btc do you stand to lose when the rollback happens?
jaybny
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 354


coder trader satoshi


View Profile
June 21, 2011, 02:58:53 PM
 #79

MtGox.. you really need PR and a spokesman.

Bit_Happy
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1442


A Great Time to Start Something!


View Profile
June 21, 2011, 05:46:31 PM
 #80

The real way of showing what we think of the situation is of course by just moving to a different trade site as soon as MtGox re-opens.

a different trade site

FYI: Tradehill is (almost certainly) on shared hosting, they didn't even invest in a VPS.
LOL(?)

15DYJpWJe9H1YofsNQbP9JEWWNn7XPZgbS
Pages: « 1 2 3 [4] 5 6 7 »  All
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Sponsored by , a Bitcoin-accepting VPN.
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!