Mt.Gox and void trades: Force Majeure

[MagicalTux]

Hi,

For all those willing to sue Mt.Gox because we will be making trades void, please remember that criminality usually falls under "force majeure" by its externality (not like we would have ever wanted that), unpredictability and irresistibility (we resisted most hack attempts, this one was "strong" enough to go through).

Force majeure (French for "superior force"), also known as cas fortuit (French) or casus fortuitus (Latin),[1] is a common clause in contracts that essentially frees both parties from liability or obligation when an extraordinary event or circumstance beyond the control of the parties, such as a war, strike, riot, crime, or an event described by the legal term "act of God" (such as flooding, earthquake, or volcanic eruption), prevents one or both parties from fulfilling their obligations under the contract.

In this very specific case, any "trade contract" (if you see that as such) is void due to force majeure. Subsequent trades directly or indirectly resulting from the hacking fall under the same rule.


Now don't be so selfish and stop trying to claim benefits you generated from nothing by abusing an extraordinary situation. I appreciate all the attention and all the mail about lawsuits, threats and more, but I'd prefer being working on "Stuff that Matters®".

[1714844238]

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[piuk]

scumbags. Your only interested in saving your own skin.

force majeure is not intended to excuse negligence or other malfeasance of a party, as where non-performance is caused by the usual and natural consequences of external forces

[kokjo]

+1

[kokjo]

scumbags

idiot!

[Bit_Happy]

Sorry to be a bit off topic, these questions are vital to many people, so please answer:

1) The moment we pass the new verification stage, are we allowed to look at our account, or are there more delays at that stage?
2) Is MtGox still solvent? and/or Have they claimed to have enough funds?
3) Are there any verifiable sources about their (rumored) possible legal troubles in Japan?

[MagicalTux]

Sorry to be a bit off topic, these questions are vital to many people, so please answer:

1) The moment we pass the new verification stage, are we allowed to look at our account, or are there more delays at that stage?
2) Is MtGox still solvent? and/or Have they claimed to have enough funds?
3) Are there any verifiable sources about their (rumored) possible legal troubles in Japan?

1) Passing the verification may take some time if there is a lot of users. We'll try to make it as fast as possible.
2) No funds were stolen
3) Legal troubles?

[hamdi]

looks like i might be loosing BTC 1000 due to mtgox...

but lucky me i got another 1000 in Tradehill

[Bit_Happy]

Legal troubles?
Just rumors, links to some guy with a blog getting posted here.
I'm still a big fan, and hope you get well soon.  

[bitcoinminer]

3) Legal troubles?

Even if dismissed, lawsuits count as "legal troubles".  I personally wasn't affected (fortunately).

Although I have to admit, I am really unsure how you could roll back all the trades or have nothing be stolen... did NOBODY withdraw ANY of the BTC they bought during that time?

[MagicalTux]

looks like i might be loosing BTC 1000 due to mtgox...

but lucky me i got another 1000 in Tradehill

1000 BTC you had and lost, or 1000 BTC you gained from some guy selling at prices as low as 0.01 USD per btc?

[MagicalTux]

3) Legal troubles?

Even if dismissed, lawsuits count as "legal troubles".  I personally wasn't affected (fortunately).

Although I have to admit, I am really unsure how you could roll back all the trades or have nothing be stolen... did NOBODY withdraw ANY of the BTC they bought during that time?

Some people did, we'll leave those as negative balance and count it as loss if not solved.

As for lawsuits we got threats only so far.

[hamdi]

1000 btc i had but i really doubt mtgox will come back
i also dont care cause im a USD-millionaire already so BTC is just a playground for me... all the gains i get from playing the market i put into charities.

[bitcoinminer]

3) Legal troubles?

Even if dismissed, lawsuits count as "legal troubles".  I personally wasn't affected (fortunately).

Although I have to admit, I am really unsure how you could roll back all the trades or have nothing be stolen... did NOBODY withdraw ANY of the BTC they bought during that time?

Some people did, we'll leave those as negative balance and count it as loss if not solved.

As for lawsuits we got threats so far, nothing yet.

Makes sense.  I fall into that third camp of opinion on this whole thing of "Wow, there is enough 'suck' to go around for everyone".

Can't imagine you're getting much sleep right about now.  Good luck.

[Neyo]

1) Passing the verification may take some time if there is a lot of users. We'll try to make it as fast as possible.

Do you have any idea when MtGox will be open to trading?

[Bit_Happy]

Any ETA on date of first trades, after the 24 hours?

[MagicalTux]

1000 btc i had but i really doubt mtgox will come back
i also dont care cause im a USD-millionaire already so BTC is just a playground for me... all the gains i get from playing the market i put into charities.

We will.

[Batouzo]

For all those willing to sue Mt.Gox because we will be making trades void, please remember that criminality usually falls under "force majeure" by its externality (not like we would have ever wanted that), unpredictability and irresistibility (we resisted most hack attempts, this one was "strong" enough to go through).

This is an interesting stand on that.

In other cases I know, it varies.

If someone would say tap into your phone line and make your number call these high-payment numbers (that cost x10 or x50 more per minute), then it is no excuse and still the person needs to be pay the due bill.
Even if it is just a regular person, versus hackers and versus big telecom.
Not saying that this is good thing. This is probably bad that it works this way especially as phone (land line) user can't really be at all responsible or can at all defend from someone tapping into cables box near his home.

Same thing with viruses popular in older days which called a high toll numbers from computer modem - dialers. But perhaps there where exceptions, not sure how it worked in most jurisdictions.

Sleeping over it, I thing most juts thing to do would be if any hacked exchange in this position, e.g. mtgox here, would reverse trades, then refund all lost income to people gaining on the fall, then try to find and sue the hackers responsible or sue other responsible.

In mtgox case, I would "kill" the auditor already. And sue the crap out of him.

Questions arise

1) Was it a private auditor brought in voluntarily by mtgox, or was it some forced, government thing to audit your company?

2) what with few people gaining with say @10 trades, @12 trades, @15 trades and so on

[The_Duke]

Hi,

For all those willing to sue Mt.Gox because we will be making trades void, please remember that criminality usually falls under "force majeure" by its externality (not like we would have ever wanted that), unpredictability and irresistibility (we resisted most hack attempts, this one was "strong" enough to go through).

Strong enough to go through in itself does not mean you can prove you did everything you possibly could (within the boundaries of what is reasonable) to prevent this from happening. That is still something that could very well be the main question in a lawsuit and something that would be at least under heavy debate, given the "evidence" we've already seen so far.

So please, get off your high horse. You just took the option that you knew would cost YOU the least, after you got hacked due to a lack of security that was already pionted out to you and are now calling OTHER people greedy...

[dennis_sweden]

http://www.alway-associates.co.uk/legal-update/article.asp?id=48

Force Majeur, Acts of God, and Others

Many of our clients have raised questions over the status of Force Majeur, Acts of God and other similar clauses in construction contracts.

The subject is hardly at the forefront of construction legislation but nevertheless it is worth revisiting.

Force Majeur is a French term which was introduced into English Case Law in Lebeaupin v Crispin as

“ All circumstances independent of the will of man AND which is not in his power to control”

Vis Majeur is more commonly known as An Act of God. Such a term is rarely seen in construction contracts but is noted here to identify that the phrase is narrower than Force Majeur because, arguably, some acts of God are with in the power of man to control.

I ChemE form of Contract defines Force Majeur as

“……. any circumstances beyond the reasonable control of a party which prevent or impede the due performance of a Contract including but not limited to war or hostilities; riot or civil commotion; epidemic; earthquake flood or other natural disaster;………

Similarly MF/1 standard Form of Contract defines Force Majeur as war, hostilities…….ionising waves…..radio activity……..pressure waves…….revolution…….riot…….any other circumstances beyond the reasonable control of the contractor.

JCT forms of Contract list Force Majeur as a Relevant Event without defining its meaning.

Most other standard forms of construction no longer use the phrases Vis Majeur & Force Majeur and are more specific in dealing with actual circumstances beyond mans will and control. In such event no automatic entitlement exists which affords either party to rely on a Force Majeur clause.

Where the terms and conditions of contract do make an expressed provision for a particular circumstance then those terms and conditions must prevail.

However circumstances such as weather may not be expressed in the terms and conditions and it is typically this scenario where the question of liability for the parties costs, time and damages arises.

The ICE and JCT both deal with weather by limiting the Employers liability to granting and extension of time only in the event of exceptionally adverse weather. Accordingly the Employer therefore loses his right to recover LDs for this period and the Contractor is unable to recover his own delay costs. In this scenario the costs are said to “lay where they lay”. This can be described as a Neutral Event as neither party is suffering or benefiting from the circumstance.

When the Contract is silent on such a matter, ie there are no expressed clauses to deal with the circumstance, then the parties cannot recover their costs from each other and again costs will lay where they lay. LDs would however become chargeable if Contract Completion is overrun as no extension of time remedy is available to the Contractor.

Author: Nigel Clayton

Date: September 2004

http://www.investopedia.com/terms/f/forcemajeure.asp#axzz1Pu4aA2At

What Does Force Majeure Mean?
A French term literally translated as "greater force", this clause is included in contracts to remove liability for natural and unavoidable catastrophes that interrupt the expected course of events and restrict participants from fulfilling obligations.
Investopedia Says
Investopedia explains Force Majeure
This clause is meant to benefit both parties in a contract. Force majeure would come into play, for example, when you buy a house. If the house is destroyed in a fire caused by a lightning strike, neither party remains obligated.

Read more: http://www.investopedia.com/terms/f/forcemajeure.asp#ixzz1Pu4fNzbQ

A Force Majeure must be included in a contract to be valid. There is no contract between mtgox and users; hence no case for force majeure.

[aral]

How would you like to be on the end of a civil lawsuit just for leaking personal data?  Let alone whatever financial malfeasance has gone on...

[Horkabork]

Thank you for making this post, MagicalTux. You posting here and keeping dialogue open, even while being pestered by people and accused of either vile or hilarious things, is a great thing. It would be nice if you could hire someone to be a perpetual forum contact, because it relieves people to see constant interaction, even if if they disagree with you.

I've been a bit critical, but straddling the fence because I would personally stood to benefit from the rollback not happening and I am torn between logic and my greedy anger rearing up thinking of the hookers and blow that I could have bought with the profits. Okay that's a lie, I probably just would have bought a reuben sandwich, but I am terribly angry at this awesome reuben sandwich that you have stripped from my hands.

Dude, my lowest active order was for $2. Do you know how many ruebens I could have bought? At least 7, and not the crappy ones with processed corned beef and crappy americanized swiss cheese, but I'm talking pastrami and real, thick-cut corned beef.

Okay back to the subject. While it's great to see you posting, your argument is practically worthless because you're presenting your own legal reasoning. Never do that, even if you're a lawyer, because we don't know whether to believe you or not and, even if entirely true, you are stating something that is of benefit to you to a bunch of people who feel they were just screwed by you. (The people who don't feel screwed are not really posting very much... "critics have louder keyboards").

In other words, even if you're right, you're wrong. You probably are right, but you need someone else to say it while you sit back and field questions. This is what politicians do when the crap hits the fan.

[BubbleBoy]

Say the hacker redirects the mtgox site to an identical clone, duplicates everyone's $ balance and password, and post a price of 0.0000001 USD/BTC. If everyone rushes to buy a total of  1 billion bitcoins worth a total of 100$, do you think mtgox should be liable for the 18 billion USD "loss" the traders incurred at current market prices ?

As long as your money is in the mtgox system, it's their rules and their site. No contractual obligation exists if you simply saw some numbers on your computer screen that might have looked like you were suddenly rich. It might have been hackers, dead pixels, or ghosts. No one knows until you get the money in you bank account.

It's only from the kindness of their hearts that mtgox give you details about what actually happened with the site. For all you know, they could claim the story in the first paragraph: you were trading on a hacker site, domain system is not 100% reliable, we don't owe you nothing; sue ICCAN and ask for a better DNS system.

[bitcoinminer]

More importantly:

http://www.golflink.com/list_1703_play-as-lies-golf-rule.html

In the United States Golf Association's "Rules of Golf," Rule No. 13 is referred to as "Ball Played As It Lies." This rule prohibits improving the lie, the area intended for making a swing, the line of play or the area in which the ball is to be dropped or placed. In general, a golf ball should be played where it lands without any change to the overall situation. Besides the exceptions built into the rule, relief also may be granted by officials on a case-by-case basis.

Read More: The Official "Play It As It Lies" Golf Rule | GolfLink.com http://www.golflink.com/list_1703_play-as-lies-golf-rule.html#ixzz1Pu7DuueQ

Improving the Situation
The Rules of Golf forbid improving the situation in which a golf ball has come to rest. This includes "moving, bending or breaking anything growing or fixed," moving or pressing down the surface on which the ball lies, making or removing "irregularities" on the playing surface, or moving any form of water (including dew or frost).

Exception: Stance
If your ball lands such that you are not able to stand on playable ground--such as if your stance would be on a cart path or sprinkler head--you may move your ball one club length from the spot where it lies, but not closer to the hole.

Exception: Backswing
If you inadvertently move your ball while making your stroke or on your backswing, this is not considered improving your lie. The exception reads: "in making a stroke or the backward movement of (the) club for a stroke," as long as the stroke is made.

Exception: On the Tee
On the tee box--when beginning a hole--a player may improve the ground on which the ball is teed. For example, you may place the ball on a tee anywhere on the tee box and you may remove weeds, press down the grass around the tee or wipe away loose impediments. In addition, if the ball falls off the tee at or before address, you may re-tee without penalty.

Exception: On the Green
On the putting green, you may mark your ball and replace it at the spot where it landed. You may also repair the green in the line of your putt or remove any sand, dirt or other loose impediment.

Hazards
If your ball lands in a hazard, and you touch the ground or water while trying to prevent a fall or while removing an obstruction, there is no penalty as long as you do not change the lie of the ball. In addition, after taking a stroke in a hazard, a player may "smooth the sand or soil in the hazard" even if the ball is still in the hazard, as long as the lie of the ball is not improved.



Read More: The Official "Play It As It Lies" Golf Rule | GolfLink.com http://www.golflink.com/list_1703_play-as-lies-golf-rule.html#ixzz1Pu7IQC9b

[ius]

Unfamiliar with Japanese law (and you appear to be applying the law whilst not being a lawyer either), and there was no 'contract' between traders and MtGox, but I'll shoot anyway (this is taken from Wikipedia, based on French law).

In the text below, I'm taking two scenario's into account:
1. An external financial auditor was compromised and a copy of your database was stolen. Your lack of details on this subject makes me doubt the existence of said auditor.
2. Your site was compromised due to a throughout lack of protection against SQL injection

The understanding of force majeure in French law is similar to that of international law and vis major as defined above. For a defendant to invoke force majeure in French law, the event proposed as force majeure must pass three tests:

Externality
    The defendant must have nothing to do with the event's happening.

An obvious failure here, in both cases.

Unpredictability
    If the event could be foreseen, the defendant is obligated to have prepared for it.[3] Being unprepared for a foreseeable event leaves the defendant culpable. This standard is very strictly applied:

    CE 9 April 1962, "Chais d’Armagnac": The Conseil d'Etat adjudged that, since a flood had occurred 69 years before the one that caused the damage at issue, the latter flood was predictable.
    Administrative tribunal of Grenoble, 19 June 1974, "Dame Bosvy": An avalanche was judged to be predictable since another had occurred around 50 years before.

In case of 1: You could not have known the auditor would be compromised. Pass.

In case of 2: You willingly operated an insecure exchange. You had been notified of security vulnerabilities before the database was stolen. Thus, you could have expected someone would try to exploit any leftover vulnerabilities.

Irresistibility
    The consequences of the event must have been unpreventable.

In case of 1: You shouldn't have provided your auditor access to usernames, emails and passwords.
In case of 2: A thorough audit and proper rewrite/overhaul of the website would have liekly prevented the attack


Sorry, not 'force majeure' if you ask me.

[Superform]

MagicalTux dont listen to the haters, this sort of thing, although disruptive will only strengthen the markets in the future, as an active day trader for the last 12 years or so my one major concern when I first wanted to deposit money, was that the buying process looked really amatuer hour compared to the security I am used to trading shares.

It looks like a proper level of security and account verification will be coming to Mt Gox which in turn will only make others feel safer trading.

The sorts of things i'm used to when trading -

user name that is issued by you.
trading password which is snail mailed to the user - or perhaps sms trading token

[Superform]

and as a tip for Mt Gox.. get a ToS

[MagicalTux]

Let me quote a part of our generic terms of service about Force Majeure:

Tibanne Co. Ltd., agents, partners, ICANN, the central registry nor any person involved in the registration will be liable to the customer or any third party for any direct or indirect loss of profits, earnings or business opportunities, damages, expense, or costs resulting directly or indirectly from any failure to perform any obligation or provide service herunder because of any Force Majeure, or governmental acts or directives, strikes, riot or civil commotion, war, hacking, any natural desaster, equipment or facilities shortages which are beeing experienced by providers of telecommunication services generally, or other similar force or condition beyond Tibanne Co. Ltd.‘s reasonable control.

And another one:

For all services of Tibanne Co. Ltd. liability will be limited to intention and gross negligence.

We had no intention of getting this to happen, and we have followed every industry standard to make this secure. Despite this it happened. We have learnt new things (especially that lots of people want Bitcoin to disappear).

[bitsalame]

MagicalTux dont listen to the haters, this sort of thing, although disruptive will only strengthen the markets in the future, as an active day trader for the last 12 years or so my one major concern when I first wanted to deposit money, was that the buying process looked really amatuer hour compared to the security I am used to trading shares.

It looks like a proper level of security and account verification will be coming to Mt Gox which in turn will only make others feel safer trading.

The sorts of things i'm used to when trading -

user name that is issued by you.
trading password which is snail mailed to the user - or perhaps sms trading token

Not haters. We are lovers who became disappointed.
"Acts of God" are unpredictable, unforseeable, uncontrollable events that escapes our power to counter it, foresee it and/or prevent it.
The best example are when there is a blizzard and a plane can't take off: THAT'S FORCE MAJEURE, AKA. ACTS OF GOD there isn't anything in the power of the airline to prevent or stop a blizzard.
In those cases you can't do anything, and you aren't entitled to any compensation from the airline (no hotel, upgrades, no shit)
(But if it was forecasted blizzard but the airline forgot changing the schedule, it isn't Force Majeure anymore, it become negligence)

If the plane blows a tire and there is no spare left, even if in the maintenance log clearly stated that needed one.
THAT IS NOT FORCE MAJEURE. (Analogy: YOU KNEW YOU HAD BUGS, YOUR EMAIL WAS BEING FLOODED WITH MAILS REGARDING TO THE EXPLOITS)
In those cases you usually get a hotel night free, amenities, and even upgrades to first class.

If the airport didn't take enough measures to prevent a terror attack and failed in implementing basic security protocols, THAT IS NOT FORCE MAJEURE: THAT'S NEGLIGENCE.
In these cases you usually get millionaire compensations from the airlines.

Stop trying to save your neck, because your head is way into your ass.
YOU ARE WORSE THAN DISAPPOINTING: WITH THIS STUPID AND LOUSY ATTEMPT YOU BECAME PATHETIC.

PS: By the way, if you cited Force Majeure because it was suggested by your lawyer, I suggest firing him. Now thinking of it, better keep him, so we can butt rape you in court.

[Epinnoia]

photocopy of the police report would be appreciated. 

[Horkabork]

How would you like to be on the end of a civil lawsuit just for leaking personal data?  Let alone whatever financial malfeasance has gone on...

How would you like to be on the end of a civil lawsuit for libel for claiming that Mt. Gox leaked personal data, implying that they were complicit or involved with the theft? Surely you have no evidence to support this claim.

Yeah, that's a shitty thing to say, and I'm not defending Mt. Gox's lousy security practices, but I'm just pointing out how crappy your argument is by making a similarly crappy argument against it. Why? Because civil lawsuits like this are about money losses. Your libel almost surely more provably costs them more money than the monetary damages you faced by Mt. Gox, at worst, having insufficient security measures that allowed this data to be stolen easily. Even that is an uphill battle for you to prove, because they'll be compared against best industry practices rather than an impenetrable wall.

In the case that leaked hashes lead to your account being hijacked, sure, you are probably due your account balance. But if attempting to get money beyond that, any judge in the land is going to ask you first, "Why are you suing Mt. Gox for insufficient security when your own password was easily guessable?"

You can't blame your landlord alone for crappy locks if you leave the windows open. The blame is shared, as your expectation of security is diminished by your own lack of it. As for the argument that they should have had two-factor authentication, account address locks and such, well that's just like alcoholics who blame their families for not fighting the bottle from their hands. "God, why are you not stopping me from hurting myself?"

Your argument is as silly as my libel one, but have fun in the murky swamps of international law in suing for your hundred dollars. Even if you miraculously win more money than your provable monetary losses, so will everyone else as we all practically would have the same case, if it was valid. In other words, if you win, it'll be noncollectable.

Anyway, on with more armchair lawyering! Oh man I practically have a law degree, as I have this dictionary RIGHT HERE on this bookshelf behind me and it says this and this and this about force majeure that I'm going to cherry pick to support my anger. At least MagicalTux probably consulted a lawyer before making his assertion or writing his TOS.

Damn, as a level 10 armchair lawyer with action court battle pads, I have to say that practically any legal stance can be supported if you research hard enough and are allowed to choose from random crap on the internet rather than applicable laws, cases and precedents. Dude, with those crappy standards, I could churn out 10 pages easily on any outrageously wrong assertion, such as that child porn is not actually illegal, rape is a permissible act where only the woman is to blame, and black people are not due the rights of other humans. I've actually done crap like that, only not so disgusting, in opposition research papers that surely will prevent me from ever holding public office.

[MagicalTux]

"Force Majeure" is anything independ of us, not the same thing as "Act of God".

Please read what I say.

[bitsalame]

How would you like to be on the end of a civil lawsuit just for leaking personal data?  Let alone whatever financial malfeasance has gone on...

How would you like to be on the end of a civil lawsuit for libel for claiming that Mt. Gox leaked personal data, implying that they were complicit or involved with the theft? Surely you have no evidence to support this claim.

Yeah, that's a shitty thing to say, and I'm not defending Mt. Gox's lousy security practices, but I'm just pointing out how crappy your argument is by making a similarly crappy argument against it. Why? Because civil lawsuits like this are about money losses. Your libel almost surely more provably costs them more money than the monetary damages you faced by Mt. Gox, at worst, having insufficient security measures that allowed this data to be stolen easily. Even that is an uphill battle for you to prove, because they'll be compared against best industry practices rather than an impenetrable wall.

In the case that leaked hashes lead to your account being hijacked, sure, you are probably due your account balance. But if attempting to get money beyond that, any judge in the land is going to ask you first, "Why are you suing Mt. Gox for insufficient security when your own password was easily guessable?"

You can't blame your landlord alone for crappy locks if you leave the windows open. The blame is shared, as your expectation of security is diminished by your own lack of it. As for the argument that they should have had two-factor authentication, account address locks and such, well that's just like alcoholics who blame their families for not fighting the bottle from their hands. "God, why are you not stopping me from hurting myself?"

Your argument is as silly as my libel one, but have fun in the murky swamps of international law in suing for your hundred dollars. Even if you miraculously win more money than your provable monetary losses, so will everyone else as we all practically would have the same case, if it was valid. In other words, if you win, it'll be noncollectable.

Anyway, on with more armchair lawyering! Oh man I practically have a law degree, as I have this dictionary RIGHT HERE on this bookshelf behind me and it says this and this and this about force majeure that I'm going to cherry pick to support my anger. At least MagicalTux probably consulted a lawyer before making his assertion or writing his TOS.

Damn, as a level 10 armchair lawyer with action court battle pads, I have to say that practically any legal stance can be supported if you research hard enough and are allowed to choose from random crap on the internet rather than applicable laws, cases and precedents. Dude, with those crappy standards, I could churn out 10 pages easily on any outrageously wrong assertion, such as that child porn is not actually illegal, rape is a permissible act where only the woman is to blame, and black people are not due the rights of other humans. I've actually done crap like that, only not so disgusting, in opposition research papers that surely will prevent me from ever holding public office.

As I said, if his lawyer suggested Force Majeure, he must be drunk.
I really hope to see Mark in court, and don't forget to bring your real life version of Lionel Hutz.

[MagicalTux]

As I said, if his lawyer suggested Force Majeure, he must be drunk.
I really hope to see Mark in court, and don't forget to bring your real life version of Lionel Hutz.

Our ToS writes hacking as included in Force Majeure. If you didn't read it that's your own problem.

[Andrew Vorobyov]

scumbags. Your only interesting in saving your own skin.

force majeure is not intended to excuse negligence or other malfeasance of a party, as where non-performance is caused by the usual and natural consequences of external forces

scumbags

+1

[crackpotjim]

Our ToS writes hacking as included in Force Majeure. If you didn't read it that's your own problem.

At no point during registration was I asked to agree to a tos. I doubt there was a link to one anywhere on the site.

[bitsalame]

"Force Majeure" is anything independ of us, not the same thing as "Act of God".

Please read what I say.

For Force Majeure requires three conditions:

1) Externality: you must not be related to the event.
We don't know. You've been lying to us from the very beginning. You claimed that was only one account holding 500,000 BTC?
Show us the anonymous transaction blocks that prove this account existed. Maybe it is your account and you don't want to admit it?
Anyway, lets assume for the example that genuinely you are not related. You might pass here.

2) Unpredictability: The attacks must have not be foreseen.
If you knew you had a vulnerability and didn't fix it (for whatever reason) you are totally culpable.
You knew your site was vulnerable. You probably were sleeping like a baby every night: waking up every three hours.
You allowed the access of this "auditor" with "read only" privileges, YOU KNOW THE RISKS OF ALLOWING A THIRD PARTY TO YOUR BACKEND, DON'T YOU?
YOU KNOW THE RISKS OF HASHING WITH MD5, DON'T YOU?
YOU KNOW THE RISKS OF NOT FILTERING OUT WEAK PASSWORDS, ISN'T THAT STANDARD PROCEDURE?
You were receiving floods of emails about several exploits and vulnerabilities in your site.
Don't fuck with us, your lies are unsustainable. You fail miserably in this condition.

3) Irresistibility: basically proving that it wasn't preventable.
Any 18 years old experienced with programming would know how to prevent half of the vulnerabilities of your site.
I would have started by not using MD5 to hash the passwords and having a very simple Javascript filtering weak passwords.
Lets not talk about the potential casualties from the explotation of CSRF vulnerabilities.
The site had more holes than Swiss cheese.
90% of this damage was preventable? YES, IT WAS.

Force Majeur??, STFU!

[Epinnoia]

As I said, if his lawyer suggested Force Majeure, he must be drunk.
I really hope to see Mark in court, and don't forget to bring your real life version of Lionel Hutz.

Our ToS writes hacking as included in Force Majeure. If you didn't read it that's your own problem.

Until you prove that the result happened because of a hacker, you can't stand behind your Force Majeure clause.  You can easily provide a scanned copy of the police report, since you have publicly said that you have initiated criminal proceedings.  

The fact that you could ease people's concerns, and the fact that you haven't done so, is, to say the least, shady/suspicious.

Those of us who WANT to trust you are being given very little to work with from you.  Show us some proof that you have initiated the criminal proceedings you claim. 

[cypherdoc]

MagicalTux dont listen to the haters, this sort of thing, although disruptive will only strengthen the markets in the future, as an active day trader for the last 12 years or so my one major concern when I first wanted to deposit money, was that the buying process looked really amatuer hour compared to the security I am used to trading shares.

It looks like a proper level of security and account verification will be coming to Mt Gox which in turn will only make others feel safer trading.

The sorts of things i'm used to when trading -

user name that is issued by you.
trading password which is snail mailed to the user - or perhaps sms trading token

Not haters. We are lovers who became disappointed.
"Acts of God" are unpredictable, unforseeable, uncontrollable events that escapes our power to counter it, foresee it and/or prevent it.
The best example are when there is a blizzard and a plane can't take off: THAT'S FORCE MAJEURE, AKA. ACTS OF GOD there isn't anything in the power of the airline to prevent or stop a blizzard.
In those cases you can't do anything, and you aren't entitled to any compensation from the airline (no hotel, upgrades, no shit)
(But if it was forecasted blizzard but the airline forgot changing the schedule, it isn't Force Majeure anymore, it become negligence)

If the plane blows a tire and there is no spare left, even if in the maintenance log clearly stated that needed one.
THAT IS NOT FORCE MAJEURE. (Analogy: YOU KNEW YOU HAD BUGS, YOUR EMAIL WAS BEING FLOODED WITH MAILS REGARDING TO THE EXPLOITS)
In those cases you usually get a hotel night free, amenities, and even upgrades to first class.

If the airport didn't take enough measures to prevent a terror attack and failed in implementing basic security protocols, THAT IS NOT FORCE MAJEURE: THAT'S NEGLIGENCE.
In these cases you usually get millionaire compensations from the airlines.

Stop trying to save your neck, because your head is way into your ass.
YOU ARE WORSE THAN DISAPPOINTING: WITH THIS STUPID AND LOUSY ATTEMPT YOU BECAME PATHETIC.

PS: By the way, if you cited Force Majeure because it was suggested by your lawyer, I suggest firing him. Now thinking of it, better keep him, so we can butt rape you in court.

you sir, who just registered to the forum 2d ago, i doubt is a btc lover.  this fact and your nick; its highly unlikely u own or believe in btc but instead r just piling on for your own nefarious purposes.

[cypherdoc]

"Force Majeure" is anything independ of us, not the same thing as "Act of God".

Please read what I say.

For Force Majeure requires three conditions:

1) Externality: you must not be related to the event.
We don't know. You've been lying to us from the very beginning. You claimed that was only one account holding 500,000 BTC?
Show us the anonymous transaction blocks that prove this account existed. Maybe it is your account and you don't want to admit it?
Anyway, lets assume for the example that genuinely you are not related. You might pass here.

2) Unpredictability: The attacks must have not be foreseen.
If you knew you had a vulnerability and didn't fix it (for whatever reason) you are totally culpable.
You knew your site was vulnerable. You probably were sleeping like a baby every night: waking up every three hours.
You allowed the access of this "auditor" with "read only" privileges, YOU KNOW THE RISKS OF ALLOWING A THIRD PARTY TO YOUR BACKEND, DON'T YOU?
YOU KNOW THE RISKS OF HASHING WITH MD5, DON'T YOU?
YOU KNOW THE RISKS OF NOT FILTERING OUT WEAK PASSWORDS, ISN'T THAT STANDARD PROCEDURE?
You were receiving floods of emails about several exploits and vulnerabilities in your site.
Don't fuck with us, your lies are unsustainable. You fail miserably in this condition.

3) Irresistibility: basically proving that it wasn't preventable.
Any 18 years old experienced with programming would know how to prevent half of the vulnerabilities of your site.
I would have started by not using MD5 to hash the passwords and having a very simple Javascript filtering weak passwords.
Lets not talk about the potential casualties from the explotation of CSRF vulnerabilities.
The site had more holes than Swiss cheese.
90% of this damage was preventable? YES, IT WAS.

Force Majeur??, STFU!

hey jerk; go back to where u came from 2d ago!

[bitsalame]

MagicalTux dont listen to the haters, this sort of thing, although disruptive will only strengthen the markets in the future, as an active day trader for the last 12 years or so my one major concern when I first wanted to deposit money, was that the buying process looked really amatuer hour compared to the security I am used to trading shares.

It looks like a proper level of security and account verification will be coming to Mt Gox which in turn will only make others feel safer trading.

The sorts of things i'm used to when trading -

user name that is issued by you.
trading password which is snail mailed to the user - or perhaps sms trading token

Not haters. We are lovers who became disappointed.
"Acts of God" are unpredictable, unforseeable, uncontrollable events that escapes our power to counter it, foresee it and/or prevent it.
The best example are when there is a blizzard and a plane can't take off: THAT'S FORCE MAJEURE, AKA. ACTS OF GOD there isn't anything in the power of the airline to prevent or stop a blizzard.
In those cases you can't do anything, and you aren't entitled to any compensation from the airline (no hotel, upgrades, no shit)
(But if it was forecasted blizzard but the airline forgot changing the schedule, it isn't Force Majeure anymore, it become negligence)

If the plane blows a tire and there is no spare left, even if in the maintenance log clearly stated that needed one.
THAT IS NOT FORCE MAJEURE. (Analogy: YOU KNEW YOU HAD BUGS, YOUR EMAIL WAS BEING FLOODED WITH MAILS REGARDING TO THE EXPLOITS)
In those cases you usually get a hotel night free, amenities, and even upgrades to first class.

If the airport didn't take enough measures to prevent a terror attack and failed in implementing basic security protocols, THAT IS NOT FORCE MAJEURE: THAT'S NEGLIGENCE.
In these cases you usually get millionaire compensations from the airlines.

Stop trying to save your neck, because your head is way into your ass.
YOU ARE WORSE THAN DISAPPOINTING: WITH THIS STUPID AND LOUSY ATTEMPT YOU BECAME PATHETIC.

PS: By the way, if you cited Force Majeure because it was suggested by your lawyer, I suggest firing him. Now thinking of it, better keep him, so we can butt rape you in court.

you sir, who just registered to the forum 2d ago, i doubt is a btc lover.  its highly likely u own or believe in btc but instead r just piling on for your own nefarious purposes.

Can you just use your brain instead of becoming a conspiranoid?
I am striking both stupid users and mtgox.
Boths have their faults, but if you read my thread it is more than evident that MtGox is lying in front of our faces.

Something really embarrasing must have happened that they are trying to cover it with childish and unsustainable lies.
There is a very clear trend here: from denying any hacking happening in the site, from claiming that there wasn't any CSRF exploit "logged" (ORLY do they get logged?), and now their lousy attempt of using legal terminologies improperly trying to to exonerate themselves from any kind of liabilities.

You, sir, are responsible for the security and stability of the site.
You can't escape from that reponsability.
You are responsible for the stability of the site.
We trusted you with our money.
You are deepening the insult of your incompetence covering lies with more lies.

You-are-pathetic

[bitsalame]

"Force Majeure" is anything independ of us, not the same thing as "Act of God".

Please read what I say.

For Force Majeure requires three conditions:

1) Externality: you must not be related to the event.
We don't know. You've been lying to us from the very beginning. You claimed that was only one account holding 500,000 BTC?
Show us the anonymous transaction blocks that prove this account existed. Maybe it is your account and you don't want to admit it?
Anyway, lets assume for the example that genuinely you are not related. You might pass here.

2) Unpredictability: The attacks must have not be foreseen.
If you knew you had a vulnerability and didn't fix it (for whatever reason) you are totally culpable.
You knew your site was vulnerable. You probably were sleeping like a baby every night: waking up every three hours.
You allowed the access of this "auditor" with "read only" privileges, YOU KNOW THE RISKS OF ALLOWING A THIRD PARTY TO YOUR BACKEND, DON'T YOU?
YOU KNOW THE RISKS OF HASHING WITH MD5, DON'T YOU?
YOU KNOW THE RISKS OF NOT FILTERING OUT WEAK PASSWORDS, ISN'T THAT STANDARD PROCEDURE?
You were receiving floods of emails about several exploits and vulnerabilities in your site.
Don't fuck with us, your lies are unsustainable. You fail miserably in this condition.

3) Irresistibility: basically proving that it wasn't preventable.
Any 18 years old experienced with programming would know how to prevent half of the vulnerabilities of your site.
I would have started by not using MD5 to hash the passwords and having a very simple Javascript filtering weak passwords.
Lets not talk about the potential casualties from the explotation of CSRF vulnerabilities.
The site had more holes than Swiss cheese.
90% of this damage was preventable? YES, IT WAS.

Force Majeur??, STFU!

hey jerk; go back to where u came from 2d ago!

So what, instead of analyzing his behavior, now you are attacking me with Ad Hominems?
So being registered in a freaking forum for too little time disqualifies my valid criticism?
I am right, you know it. Anyone with a iota of rationality knows it.
Now you are covering him because your personal connection with him, do you think that this favoritism will actually help the community?
I am speechless.

[The_Duke]

The real way of showing what we think of the situation is of course by just moving to a different trade site as soon as MtGox re-opens.

[Grinder]

A Force Majeure must be included in a contract to be valid. There is no contract between mtgox and users; hence no case for force majeure.

But then how can you claim that they are not allowed to do a rollback if you don't have a contract with them?

[Findeton]

As I said, if his lawyer suggested Force Majeure, he must be drunk.
I really hope to see Mark in court, and don't forget to bring your real life version of Lionel Hutz.

Our ToS writes hacking as included in Force Majeure. If you didn't read it that's your own problem.

I hope you won't use MD5 hashing again. Use SHA-2, for god's sake!

[xjosx]

As I said, if his lawyer suggested Force Majeure, he must be drunk.
I really hope to see Mark in court, and don't forget to bring your real life version of Lionel Hutz.

Our ToS writes hacking as included in Force Majeure. If you didn't read it that's your own problem.

A ToS isn't a legally binding contract, I hope you know... You'd better lawyer up.

[cypherdoc]

Can you just use your brain instead of becoming a conspiranoid?
I am striking both stupid users and mtgox.
Boths have their faults, but if you read my thread it is more than evident that MtGox is lying in front of our faces.

Something really embarrasing must have happened that they are trying to cover it with childish and unsustainable lies.
There is a very clear trend here: from denying any hacking happening in the site, from claiming that there wasn't any CSRF exploit "logged" (ORLY do they get logged?), and now their lousy attempt of using legal terminologies improperly trying to to exonerate themselves from any kind of liabilities.

You, sir, are responsible for the security and stability of the site.
You can't escape from that reponsability.
You are responsible for the stability of the site.
We trusted you with our money.
You are deepening the insult of your incompetence covering lies with more lies.

You-are-pathetic

who is pathetic?  u register 2d ago AFTER all the events happen, give yourself a nick like that, and scream bloody murder against MT and mtgox and then call me a conspiranoid?

you had no money on the line in bitcoin, you have no interest in bitcoin (other than seeing it fail), you have no interest in mtgox, you have no interest in being a gentleman, you should leave.

[klaus]

- I think MagicalTux is doing a good job.

Im happy that he's still there and i can use his tradingplattform. If i dont want to use it anymore i can go.

Im afraid that people here cry so loud agains MagicalTux that he just could say - kiss my as. And then we 'really see satoshi running with our money'.

So, in the end. Who needs the other more? The Chicken or the Egg?

If MagicalTux runns away now because of you - that would be a scandal. For bitcoin itself !!!

This hackerthing 2 days ago? Well, in the kitchen there is heat. Shit happens. I could get some 100 coins at a good price because i was solvent at the crash. Now comes a rollback. OK. Why not. Its just fair. Lets trade regular again. Im not afraid of it and i dont need stolen coins.


http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=20563.0

[BubbleBoy]

90% of this damage was preventable? YES, IT WAS.

What damage ? When the exchange reopens you will find your $ and BTC balances untouched. The most you could claim is that you were denied service for a few days.
The whole debate about force majeure would excuse mtgox from loosing your funds to hackers, at which users could claim mtgox did not do it's best job to secure the service. It would really for a court to decide, but only if funds were lost. For example if the rollback did not happen, it would apply to the original owner of the 500.000 BTC.

Since no funds were lost (the small withdrawals that lead to negative balances will be covered by mtgox), but only imaginary profits, the whole debate is baseless. The profits were never yours to begin with. You have no proof you actually bought 250.000 at 0.01 $/BTC. None whatsoever. You would be thrown out of any court.

[Horkabork]

So what, instead of analyzing his behavior, now you are attacking me with Ad Hominems?
So being registered in a freaking forum for too little time disqualifies my valid criticism?
I am right, you know it. Anyone with a iota of rationality knows it.
Now you are covering him because your personal connection with him, do you think that this favoritism will actually help the community?
I am speechless.

Whoa now. His font is much bigger than yours, and it's bolded. That means he's right by at least 4 typography point sizes. I don't think you have a leg to stand on in this argument, unless you start using an even bigger size and some annoying font like

Impact

.

[Batouzo]

For Force Majeure requires three conditions:
[...]

hey jerk; go back to where u came from 2d ago!

Your ad hominem attack is proving that even a new member of forum can say more correct and informative things that "hero member" as you.

[Batouzo]

What damage ? When the exchange reopens you will find your $ and BTC balances untouched. The most you could claim is that you were denied service for a few days.

What with orders @10 @12 @15 placed at least partially (imho mostly) by legitimate users.

[cypherdoc]

I am speechless.

LOL!

[cypherdoc]

Your ad hominem attack is proving that even a new member of forum can say more correct and informative things that "hero member" as you.

wow, you sound intelligent.  let me define from Wikipedia:

The ad hominem is normally described as a logical fallacy,[2] but it is not always fallacious; in some instances, questions of personal conduct, character, motives, etc., are legitimate and relevant to the issue.[3]

[Batouzo]

who is pathetic?  u register 2d ago AFTER all the events happen, give yourself a nick like that, and scream bloody murder against MT and mtgox and then call me a conspiranoid?
you had no money on the line in bitcoin, you have no interest in bitcoin (other than seeing it fail), you have no interest in mtgox, you have no interest in being a gentleman, you should leave.

1) you are pathetic (at least in this posts above) - for the reasons that follow:
2) you made ad ad hominem attack - actually it was all that your post was
3) you imply that person must be stupid because he just joined our community. This is a fallacy. How you know how long he used BTC overall (even if that mattered) - or better, how knowledgeable he is in business/finances/trading/law?
If Benjamin Franklin would join some local group of people talking about a politics, would you also imply he doesn't know shit, just because he just-joined?
4) "you had no money on the line in bitcoin" - how the hell do you know that?
5) you say that if he has no money on the line then he should not speak. Then what, if soliders would be murdering people in country X then you should not say anything bad (or good) about it unless you have family in country X?

Seriously.


EDITED:

The ad hominem is normally described as a logical fallacy,[2] but it is not always fallacious; in some instances, questions of personal conduct, character, motives, etc., are legitimate and relevant to the issue.

Sure but his motives are not relevant to his opinion how law would work here. Just the law matters no matter who quotes it.

[aral]

Your ad hominem attack is proving that even a new member of forum can say more correct and informative things that "hero member" as you.

wow, you sound intelligent.  let me define from Wikipedia:

The ad hominem is normally described as a logical fallacy,[2] but it is not always fallacious; in some instances, questions of personal conduct, character, motives, etc., are legitimate and relevant to the issue.[3]

sure, it wasn't an ad hominem attack.  it was a childish insult.  how old are you?  because you are acting like a stroppy 12-year-old

[cypherdoc]

- I think MagicalTux is doing a good job.

Im happy that he is still there and i can use his tradingplattform. If i dont want to use it anymore a can go.

Im afraid that people here cry so loud agains MagicalTux that he just could say - kiss my as. And then we 'really see sakoshi running with our money'.

So, in the end. Who needs the other more? The Chicken or the Egg?

If MagicalTux runns awai now becauce of you - that would be a scandal. For bitcoin itself !!!

This hackerthing 2 days ago? Well, in the kitchen there is heat. Shit happens. I could get some 100 coins at a good price because i was solvent at the crash. Now comes a rollback. OK. Why not. Its just fair. Lets trade regular again. Im not afraid of it and i dont need stolen coins.


http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=20563.0

Looks like bitsalame has started a new trend... SPEAK LOUD IF YOU WANT TO PROVE YOUR POINT, DAMNIT!

If MagicalTux runns awai now becauce of you - that would be a scandal. For bitcoin itself !!!

maybe this is what they want?

[klaus]

maybe this is what they want?

LOL. Maybe. I had the same idea, just a minute ago ....

[cypherdoc]

the trolls are back b/c they sense the tide is turning back in favor of btc and mtgox.    sorry boys, nice try.

[klaus]

Looks like bitsalame has started a new trend... SPEAK LOUD IF YOU WANT TO PROVE YOUR POINT, DAMNIT!

sorry. i changed.

[cypherdoc]

Sure but his motives are not relevant to his opinion how law would work here.

oh, but they most certainly are.

[cypherdoc]

who is pathetic?  u register 2d ago AFTER all the events happen, give yourself a nick like that, and scream bloody murder against MT and mtgox and then call me a conspiranoid?
you had no money on the line in bitcoin, you have no interest in bitcoin (other than seeing it fail), you have no interest in mtgox, you have no interest in being a gentleman, you should leave.

1) you are pathetic (at least in this posts above) - for the reasons that follow:
2) you made ad ad hominem attack - actually it was all that your post was
3) you imply that person must be stupid because he just joined our community. This is a fallacy. How you know how long he used BTC overall (even if that mattered) - or better, how knowledgeable he is in business/finances/trading/law?
If Benjamin Franklin would join some local group of people talking about a politics, would you also imply he doesn't know shit, just because he just-joined?
4) "you had no money on the line in bitcoin" - how the hell do you know that?
5) you say that if he has no money on the line then he should not speak. Then what, if soliders would be murdering people in country X then you should not say anything bad (or good) about it unless you have family in country X?

Seriously.


EDITED:

The ad hominem is normally described as a logical fallacy,[2] but it is not always fallacious; in some instances, questions of personal conduct, character, motives, etc., are legitimate and relevant to the issue.

Sure but his motives are not relevant to his opinion how law would work here. Just the law matters no matter who quotes it.

sure, i could be wrong but i see these as all logical deductions based on his behavior, the facts, and how he is conducting himself.

[bitsalame]

Can you just use your brain instead of becoming a conspiranoid?
I am striking both stupid users and mtgox.
Boths have their faults, but if you read my thread it is more than evident that MtGox is lying in front of our faces.

Something really embarrasing must have happened that they are trying to cover it with childish and unsustainable lies.
There is a very clear trend here: from denying any hacking happening in the site, from claiming that there wasn't any CSRF exploit "logged" (ORLY do they get logged?), and now their lousy attempt of using legal terminologies improperly trying to to exonerate themselves from any kind of liabilities.

You, sir, are responsible for the security and stability of the site.
You can't escape from that reponsability.
You are responsible for the stability of the site.
We trusted you with our money.
You are deepening the insult of your incompetence covering lies with more lies.

You-are-pathetic

who is pathetic?  u register 2d ago AFTER all the events happen, give yourself a nick like that, and scream bloody murder against MT and mtgox and then call me a conspiranoid?

you had no money on the line in bitcoin, you have no interest in bitcoin (other than seeing it fail), you have no interest in mtgox, you have no interest in being a gentleman, you should leave.

Your reasoning skills are evidently subpar, especially considering your reliance of informal fallacies and irrelevant peculiarities as bases of your deduction.
Obviously it is a waste of time to discuss with you, but for the record I have a substantial amount of bitcoins and dollars in MtGox.

I deeply trusted its management. I appreciate the fast reactiveness to the damage.
What I don't appreciate is the shortsightedness.
What I really strongly hate is that they are trying to wash their hands from it, at all costs.

And the series of lies after lies after lies after lies:
1) Denying any hacking involved, therefore they aren't liable. (check their official statement at mtgox.com)
2) When the evidence was overwhelming, they tried to "outsource" the responsible (the so called "auditor"), therefore they aren't responsible. (well, never showed proof of it either)
3) They say they the discovered CSRF weren't never used, therefore they aren't liable. (check the support emails they reply  to those who report CSRF exploits)

and now... the best of all of them
4) Hacking is Force Majeure, therefore they are exonerated from any responsability.
(an argument that is very amateurish. It is not Force Majeure, it is not your definition in your ToS what matters, it is the law what matters. If that is your defense, really, your lawyer is no better than Lionel Hutz.

Be fucking honest: what the hell really happened behind the screens?
How deep was the system compromised?
What exploits were used?
How many accounts were compromised?
What have you learned from it?
We saw your good reactiveness and quick damage control, now what proactive measures have you taken to not allow it to happen again?

Stop the lies, be honest Mark. We know you got PWNED.
AnD BE FUCKING RESPONSIBLE: YOU SCREWED UP BIG TIME, IT WAS PREVENTABLE.
You are trying to escape the costly compensations, but you must amend your mistakes.
Earn our trust back.

PS: to the guy askigg about the damage, are you kidding? Leaking the userbase is not something we can just let it pass.
A lot of people, people who were early adopters lost their bitcoins because of the leak, because they reuse it in other sites. (40/60 fault. 40% fault of the user for weak password, and 60% MtGox because for LAME security and Because HE SHOULD KNOW BETTER).
Also all of the 60K users now have their private emails publicized and now are definitely gonna be in the lists of spammers and scammers. More than one fell into the spoofed phishing attempt. Spammers know that everyone in the list have deep interests in libertarian ideals, digital currencies, heavy computer users, miners, programmers, geeks, nerds, enthusiasts, etc... It is a great profile to market.

[cypherdoc]

Your reasoning skills are evidently subpar, especially considering your reliance of informal fallacies and irrelevant peculiarities as bases of your deduction.
Obviously it is a waste of time to discuss with you, but for the record I have a substantial amount of bitcoins and dollars in MtGox.

I deeply trusted its management. I appreciate the fast reactiveness to the damage.
What I don't appreciate is the shortsightedness.
What I really strongly hate is that they are trying to wash their hands from it, at all costs.

And the series of lies after lies after lies after lies:
1) Denying any hacking involved, therefore they aren't liable. (check their official statement at mtgox.com)
2) When the evidence was overwhelming, they tried to "outsource" the responsible (the so called "auditor"), therefore they aren't responsible. (well, never showed proof of it either)
3) They say they the discovered CSRF weren't never used, therefore they aren't liable. (check the support emails they reply  to those who report CSRF exploits)

and now... the best of all of them
4) Hacking is Force Majeure, therefore they are exonerated from any responsability.
(an argument that is very amateurish. It is not Force Majeure, it is not your definition in your ToS what matters, it is the law what matters. If that is your defense, really, your lawyer is no better than Lionel Hutz.

Be fucking honest: what the hell really happened behind the screens?
How deep was the system compromised?
What exploit were used?
How many accounts were compromised?
What have you learned from it?
What measures have you taken to not allow it to happen again?

Stop the lies, be honest Mark.
What the hell happened, earn our trust back.

PS: to the guy askigg about the damage, are you kidding? Leaking the userbase is not something we can just let it pass.
A lot of people, people who were early adopters lost their bitcoins because of the leak, because they reuse it in other sites. (40/60 fault. 40% fault of the user for weak password, and 60% MtGox because for LAME security and Because HE SHOULD KNOW BETTER).
Also all of the 60K users now have their private emails publicized and now are definitely gonna be in the lists of spammers and scammers. More than one fell into the spoofed phishing attempt. Spammers know that everyone in the list have deep interests in libertarian ideals, digital currencies, heavy computer users, miners, programmers, geeks, nerds, enthusiasts, etc... It is a great profile to market.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[The_Duke]

Up to this topic, I actually felt a bit sorry for Tux and what happened and was under the impression he was honestly trying to fix things... but after seeying the haughtiness in his post... I hope someone does sue him.

[BubbleBoy]

PS: to the guy askigg about the damage, are you kidding? Leaking the userbase is not something we can just let it pass.
A lot of people, people who were early adopters lost their bitcoins because of the leak, because they reuse it in other sites. (40/60 fault. 40% fault of the user for weak password, and 60% MtGox because for LAME security and Because HE SHOULD KNOW BETTER).

There was no implicit or explicit contract for mtgox to act as a password manager and protect you login credentials for other sites. A great number of sites store plain text passwords and a huge number store plain or salted md5 passwords. From an industry best practice point of view, MD5-crypt passwords are regarded as secure without bogging down the authentication server.
Sites do get hacked and do suffer from inside jobs. It's entirely your fault if you chose weak passwords AND reuse them on other sites. mtgox can only be liable for the damage on the system they control; as it seems there's no damage, all balances will be untouched.

Also all of the 60K users now have their private emails publicized and now are definitely gonna be in the lists of spammers and scammers.

Accidentally leaking someone's email is not and cannot be a crime. An email address is public by definition. Sending spam is a crime in some legislations, but to pin that on mtgox would mean to prove they intentionally and malevolently shared the email list with any spammers.
Is it a bad way to treat your customers ? Sure. Can they press criminal charges or request compensation ? Nope.

[Batouzo]

sure, i could be wrong but i see these as all logical deductions based on his behavior, the facts, and how he is conducting himself.

If you really see it, then address that, instead of doing childish insults.

[The_Duke]

Accidentally leaking someone's email is not and cannot be a crime. An email address is public by definition.

Nonsense. My email adress is not public, and unless I give someone permission to publish it, they are not allowed to do so. ANd even if they do, as soon as it is leaked in a context, more than just the adress is leaked, because it is an adress linked to other information. In this case the information that that adress held an account on MtGox.

[aral]

Is it a bad way to treat your customers ? Sure. Can they press criminal charges or request compensation ? Nope.

I believe they can actually, there is a Japanese data protection law that requires certain precautions are taken to protect users' data, including email addresses.  It is obvious that mtgox hasn't complied with this law, I wonder even if it is a criminal matter and the relevant authorities should be notified.

[MeSarah]

Let me quote a part of our generic terms of service about Force Majeure:

Tibanne Co. Ltd., agents, partners, ICANN, the central registry nor any person involved in the registration will be liable to the customer or any third party for any direct or indirect loss of profits, earnings or business opportunities, damages, expense, or costs resulting directly or indirectly from any failure to perform any obligation or provide service herunder because of any Force Majeure, or governmental acts or directives, strikes, riot or civil commotion, war, hacking, any natural desaster, equipment or facilities shortages which are beeing experienced by providers of telecommunication services generally, or other similar force or condition beyond Tibanne Co. Ltd.‘s reasonable control.

And another one:

For all services of Tibanne Co. Ltd. liability will be limited to intention and gross negligence.

We had no intention of getting this to happen, and we have followed every industry standard to make this secure. Despite this it happened. We have learnt new things (especially that lots of people want Bitcoin to disappear).

Giving access to areas of a database that are not needed for an auditor todo their job is 'groos negligence'. There is no reason why an auditor needs access the the hashed passwords. What are they going to do check to make sure the hash is correct and why would there be a need for doing so? This would mean that you have a special section on the site for checking the hashed password or god forbid access to the source code.

This is going to be a tought lesson for you and those involed. I think we need to know who this auditor is. Those that want to might want to take action against the auditor.

With that said, I have yet to do business with Mt Gox. But it wont stop me. I am of the opinion that when this set back runs it course that Mt. Gox will be the most secure of the exchanges. It might not sound like it, but Im on your side MagicalTux.

[TriumVir]

Well one thing is for certain: MagicalTux knows as much about the law as he does security . . . which is to say not much at all.

Force Majeure? Is this being discussed with a straight face? Send in the clowns!

[Maxxx]

Lol, I haven't commented on this until now but this is laughable.

It was obvious that Mt. Gox was compromised at least a week before this event. There were people claiming that the USD in their accounts had been used to purchase BTC and then withdrawn on multiple forums, including Reddit. This was at least a full week before and leading up to this incident.

Mt. Gox needs to cut their losses and repay the original account owner. You cannot simply "Rollback" the exchange because people have already withdrawn BTC that was involved.

I mean seriously. I'm half expecting MTux to hop on a chopper to a remote island now.

So long and thanks for all the cash!

This Force Majeure is painfully laughable... I almost feel embarrassed.

I'm the biggest Bitcoin supporter I know, but I'm not going to defend the actions of a Bitcoin exchange like this. Tux needs to come out with an official statement soon. No more smoke and mirrors.

[Sukrim]

Just read the ToS of Tibanne, which you (as it seems?!) agreed to when opening an account on MtGox:
http://legal.tibanne.com/

[aral]

Just read the ToS of Tibanne, which you (as it seems?!) agreed to when opening an account on MtGox:
http://legal.tibanne.com/

I never read that and was not directed to read it during the registration process, so I cannot be said to have agreed with that.  Normal websites do have a 'I have read the ToS' checkbox at least.

[Batouzo]

Just read the ToS of Tibanne, which you (as it seems?!) agreed to when opening an account on MtGox:
http://legal.tibanne.com/

I never read that and was not directed to read it during the registration process, so I cannot be said to have agreed with that.  Normal websites do have a 'I have read the ToS' checkbox at least.

No-one cares if you read it; but indeed there should be an  [ ] I have read and agree to ToS   checkbox.  Probably it depends on jurisdiction. Actually, which one counts here, JP or where the user lives or.... ?

[NO_SLAVE]

I dont give a shit about any of this, I just want my money or BTC back. 
Now please get the site up, this delay is eroding any confidence you garnered by the
public relations campaign youve attmpted in the past couple days.

thanks

[dennis_sweden]

THE LONDON STOCK EXCHANGE PLC has following stipulations regarding "force majeure":

3. Liability
3.1 Neither party shall be liable to the other for any delay in performance or non-performance of its obligations under this Product Agreement to the extent that such delay or non-performance is caused by a Force Majeure Event.

3.2 In no circumstances (other than circumstances of fraud, dishonesty or wilful misconduct) shall the Exchange be liable for:
(a) any loss or damage caused by computer viruses transmitted through the Site or by email or other electronic delivery of the Product; or

3
(b) loss of profit, goodwill, business opportunity or anticipated savings suffered by the Customer as a result of any breach of duty by the Exchange whether in statute, contract or tort (including negligence).

3.3 Subject to Clause 3.2 the Exchange shall be liable for any loss suffered by the Customer as a result of the Exchange’s breach of duty whether in statute, contract or tort (including negligence) however its liability whether in statute, contract or tort (including negligence) shall be limited to the Agreed Sum per occurrence or series of occurrences arising from a single cause.

“Force Majeure Event”
means, in relation to a party any event or circumstance:
which is not reasonably foreseeable; and
is beyond that party’s reasonable control; and
prevents or limits the ability of that party to meets its obligations under this Product Agreement.

https://www.services.londonstockexchange.com/exchangecharge/resources/ITC%20Terms%20and%20Conditions.pdf

If applicable to Mtgox (as Mtgox purports to claim) Mtgox is liable in tort law; negligence of known systemic risks of its security.

Mtgox cannot claim "force majeure" either as it was reasonably forseeable and was not beyond Mtgox reasonable control to implement a more rigid security scheme.

Sukrim

Just read the ToS of Tibanne, which you (as it seems?!) agreed to when opening an account on MtGox:
http://legal.tibanne.com/

These provisions would never be upheld in a court of law. Contracts/sections of contracts are regularly declared void/unapplicable due to a lack of legal adherence.

[airdata]

3) Legal troubles?

Even if dismissed, lawsuits count as "legal troubles".  I personally wasn't affected (fortunately).

Although I have to admit, I am really unsure how you could roll back all the trades or have nothing be stolen... did NOBODY withdraw ANY of the BTC they bought during that time?

Some people did, we'll leave those as negative balance and count it as loss if not solved.

As for lawsuits we got threats only so far.

Mr Tux : Would you be willing to give a ballpark estimate of the amount of btc that were 'successfully' withdrawn before the site went down?
From what I've seen on the forums here and other sites, I'm guessing there are alot of people who would sooner run to trade hill than even up a negative balance on mtgox.
Thanks.

-Airdata

[airdata]

Bitsalame : How many btc do you stand to lose when the rollback happens?

[jaybny]

MtGox.. you really need PR and a spokesman.

[Bit_Happy]

The real way of showing what we think of the situation is of course by just moving to a different trade site as soon as MtGox re-opens.

a different trade site

FYI: Tradehill is (almost certainly) on shared hosting, they didn't even invest in a VPS.
LOL(?)

[dennis_sweden]

Bit_Happy

kokojie has contended elswhere that Tradehill runs on a dedicated server. I'm no computer whizz but it the link appears to confirm this.

kokojie
Full Member
***
Online Online

Posts: 166


View Profile Personal Message (Online)
   
   
Re: Wild trading at tradehill
Today at 02:36:16 am
   Reply with quote  #41
Quote from: lardycake on June 20, 2011, 07:05:41 pm
Tradehill is run from a shared hosting account on hostgator.

Dedicated Hosting:
tradehill.com is hosted on a dedicated server.  Reverse IP look up says zero sites other than tradehill.com hosted at their IP address.

Code:

http://whois.domaintools.com/tradehill.com

[Tasty Champa]

what about the double percentage charged on trades over the weekend?

will those be rolled back too?

[Tasty Champa]

what about the double percentage charged on trades over the weekend?

will those be rolled back too?

I'm going to ask this question until i get an answer.
If I don't get an answer, I'm going to ask again.
Then, if by chance I still don't receive an answer, I'm going to ask it again.

each time I get banned, I will ask more questions.

1 month from today,
if I still have not received an answer,
I'm going to answer each of them with a false answer.

Eventually I will populate google with many false answered questions about Mt. Gox.

So please just answer my question.

[NO_SLAVE]

1 month from today,
if I still have not received an answer,
I'm going to answer each of them with a false answer.

Eventually I will populate google with many false answered questions about Mt. Gox.

So please just answer my question.

Way to incriminate yourself.  Good show old chap. 

[Epinnoia]

kokojie has contended elswhere that Tradehill runs on a dedicated server. I'm no computer whizz but it the link appears to confirm this.

Ran my own web-hosting company for six years.  I can tell you that multiple IP addresses can route to the same physical machine.  So the best such a reverse-IP lookup can do is tell you how many domains are on that one IP, not every IP assigned to the box.

In other words, a dedicated IP address is not the same as a dedicated server.  Many times, the box will only have a single IP -- but not always.

[Tasty Champa]

1 month from today,
if I still have not received an answer,
I'm going to answer each of them with a false answer.

Eventually I will populate google with many false answered questions about Mt. Gox.

So please just answer my question.

Way to incriminate yourself.  Good show old chap. 

Don't roll your eyes at me.
I have the Force Majeure behind me. xD

[stic.man]

wouldn't rolling back the trades also roll back the transaction fees or is that a separate process?

[Vladimir]

MtGox.. you really need PR and a spokesman.

Dear Mtgox. please do get some help with PR, legal and security. You can (could) afford it. Do not be so damn greedy and spend some money on this now.

Do not try to do it all yourself. You are obviously not qualified in these 3 fields.

Constant lies and half truth's are very damaging from PR point of view.

Force majeure claim is naive to the extreme, how embarrassing.

The security field shortcomings are obvious. Do you realize that security is not a state, it is a process.

Get help, delegate things to pros, you cannot do it all yourself. It is a difficult step for a small biz operator but it has to be done.


More specifically, consider the following actions for your plunge protection team:

1. Get proper legal advise, get proper terms and conditions which you have user agree to at the sign up stage and than emailed to user as a pdf file. Some t&s on one of billion web sites somewhere on the net is not applicable and pretending that it is binding in any way is laughable.

2. Get yourself ISO 27001 certified. It will cost you but it is a great step from both PR and security point of view.

[shamen]

+1 to what vlad said

[Tasty Champa]

wouldn't rolling back the trades also roll back the transaction fees or is that a separate process?

I can't verify if it was happening to everyone, but it was certainly happening to me.
my transaction fee was 1.3% over the entire weekend up until they were took down for being greedy.

[AtlasONo]

MtGox.. you really need PR and a spokesman.

Isn't Adam pretty much that.

[chihlidog]

MtGox.. you really need PR and a spokesman.

Dear Mtgox. please do get some help with PR, legal and security. You can (could) afford it. Do not be so damn greedy and spend some money on this now.

Do not try to do it all yourself. You are obviously not qualified in these 3 fields.

Constant lies and half truth's are very damaging from PR point of view.

Force majeure claim is naive to the extreme, how embarrassing.

The security field shortcomings are obvious. Do you realize that security is not a state, it is a process.

Get help, delegate things to pros, you cannot do it all yourself. It is a difficult step for a small biz operator but it has to be done.


More specifically, consider the following actions for your plunge protection team:

1. Get proper legal advise, get proper terms and conditions which you have user agree to at the sign up stage and than emailed to user as a pdf file. Some t&s on one of billion web sites somewhere on the net is not applicable and pretending that it is binding in any way is laughable.

2. Get yourself ISO 27001 certified. It will cost you but it is a great step from both PR and security point of view.

This should have been done BEFORE the hack. With the money the site was making on trades, and the vulnerabilities pointed out by numerous people, this was a critical step that was skipped over due to greed.

Of course, MtGox will say it didnt matter, since they werent hacked, but instead leaked. Whichever the case, it's no secret I feel strongly that MtGox saw the potential to make real money, jumped in head first and decided to be greedy about it and not spend the money on what mattered. Anything he does now is, IMO, too little too late.

[Tasty Champa]

This seems like the most adequate place to post this question.

what about the double percentage charged on trades over the entire operating weekend?

[Jack of Diamonds]

You are responsible for the stability of the site.
We trusted you with our money.
You are deepening the insult of your incompetence covering lies with more lies.

Who is "we" and "our"?
It seems you don't even have a single bitcoin or even a single dollar invested in bitcoins.

You just signed up to the forums after the leak happened to troll for fun because you're unemployed.

Keep the good stuff coming. I'm sure there's more of it.
p.s. I "lost" thousands of bitcoins I bought for cheap and I don't blame Mark for reversing the market.

[finack]

As others have said, Mt. Gox appears to be in serious need of PR and a spokesman. I'd add to that list real legal counsel and a few good nights sleep.

I'm sure this will fall on deaf ears, but Mark you're grinding your business away in your attempts to save it. You'd be much better off slowing down and dealing with this incident slowly and methodically instead of rushing to get back up and arguing with your customers on a message board.

Get a good night's sleep. Then spend some money. Hire a lawyer, a spokesman and an app sec consultant. Slow down and listen to what they say.

The first rule of being stuck in a hole is to stop digging.

[unk]

Constant lies and half truth's are very damaging from PR point of view.

Force majeure claim is naive to the extreme, how embarrassing.

The security field shortcomings are obvious. Do you realize that security is not a state, it is a process.

Get help, delegate things to pros, you cannot do it all yourself. It is a difficult step for a small biz operator but it has to be done.

i just wanted to lend my support to these three points that vladimir made. he has been consistently spot on regarding both security and the role of exchanges in the bitcoin economy.

particularly, mt. gox's claim of 'force majeure' is woefully misapplied here, in an almost offensively misleading way. from a youthful idealist in the forum, cutting his or her teeth on legal principles without any legal understanding, it would be embarrassing enough. from a multimillion-dollar currency exchange, it's very troubling.

i have nothing against you guys personally and have nothing to say specifically about the merits of lawsuits here, but the misinformation makes me want to remind customers that if you're planning to sue mt. gox, (1) don't take legal advice from them and (2) don't post personal information or anything about your case to the forum, as that is almost certain not to help you.

as for the rollback, if mt. gox is willing to listen to any advice from the forum, please seek legal counsel before committing to a course of action.

[bitcoinminer]

As others have said, Mt. Gox appears to be in serious need of PR and a spokesman. I'd add to that list real legal counsel and a few good nights sleep.

I'm sure this will fall on deaf ears, but Mark you're grinding your business away in your attempts to save it. You'd be much better off slowing down and dealing with this incident slowly and methodically instead of rushing to get back up and arguing with your customers on a message board.

Get a good night's sleep. Then spend some money. Hire a lawyer, a spokesman and an app sec consultant. Slow down and listen to what they say.

The first rule of being stuck in a hole is to stop digging.

+50 XP
LEVEL UP!!!

[elggawf]

kokojie has contended elswhere that Tradehill runs on a dedicated server. I'm no computer whizz but it the link appears to confirm this.

While Bit_Happy comes off as the most obvious MtGox shill I've ever seen, and I'd really like for you to be right, those reverse lookup things aren't always reliable.

You can typically get a dedicated IP on shared hosting accounts - this is getting harder without justification, but here's the kicker: https (as TradeHill uses) is instant justification. https does not play nice on shared IPs.

[dinker]

what about the double percentage charged on trades over the weekend?

will those be rolled back too?

I'm going to ask this question until i get an answer.
If I don't get an answer, I'm going to ask again.
Then, if by chance I still don't receive an answer, I'm going to ask it again.

each time I get banned, I will ask more questions.

1 month from today,
if I still have not received an answer,
I'm going to answer each of them with a false answer.

Eventually I will populate google with many false answered questions about Mt. Gox.

So please just answer my question.

bump for good question.

[unk]

You can typically get a dedicated IP on shared hosting accounts - this is getting harder without justification, but here's the kicker: https (as TradeHill uses) is instant justification. https does not play nice on shared IPs.

i know nothing about tradehill, but as a technical claim about https, this is entirely incorrect. the ssl certificates used by https authenticate a domain name; they are entirely independent of network-layer addresses.

[niemivh]

Sorry to be a bit off topic, these questions are vital to many people, so please answer:

1) The moment we pass the new verification stage, are we allowed to look at our account, or are there more delays at that stage?
2) Is MtGox still solvent? and/or Have they claimed to have enough funds?
3) Are there any verifiable sources about their (rumored) possible legal troubles in Japan?

1) Passing the verification may take some time if there is a lot of users. We'll try to make it as fast as possible.
2) No funds were stolen
3) Legal troubles?

[niemivh]

1000 btc i had but i really doubt mtgox will come back
i also dont care cause im a USD-millionaire already so BTC is just a playground for me... all the gains i get from playing the market i put into charities.

You want to make someone's life wonderful?

Donate to my link, I'll quit my job and write my book, make my documentary, and record my album.

It'll be worth it!!!!!!

[elggawf]

i know nothing about tradehill, but as a technical claim about https, this is entirely incorrect. the ssl certificates used by https authenticate a domain name; they are entirely independent of network-layer addresses.

SSL negotiation takes place before the Host: header is sent - so name-based virtual hosting doesn't work over HTTPS. Therefore with the exception of multi-domain or wildcard certificates, you're pretty much limited to one "site" per IP, unless you change the port.

If you're saying it's possible to do name-based virtualhosting (and by extension, shared hosting) over HTTPS on a single IP, please share the details of it.

[unk]

SSL negotiation takes place before the Host: header is sent - so name-based virtual hosting doesn't work over HTTPS. Therefore with the exception of multi-domain or wildcard certificates, you're pretty much limited to one "site" per IP, unless you change the port.

If you're saying it's possible to do name-based virtualhosting (and by extension, shared hosting) over HTTPS on a single IP, please share the details of it.

my apologies. i'm tremendously out of practice. this is what going to six hours of meetings a day does to a former programmer. :)

what confused me is that you can, of course, simply distinguish on port, so the claim that the ip address (rather than the connection) needed to be unique is what raised a red flag to me. but of course, this isn't relevant to the point you were making; that tradehill uses port 443 is useful evidence of the kind you were suggesting that it's operating on its own network address.

[shamen]

MtGox made the BBC news

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-13857192

[elements]

MtGox made the BBC news

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-13857192

At least I'm famous now

[Webengers]

MtGox made the BBC news

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-13857192

At least I'm famous now

You: Parlay it into more money to invest in bitcoin through media appearances. Shut everyone out and demand cash for an interview.

[elements]

C'mon man, they just quoted me from the status.mtgox forum.

[jondecker76]

Why is it that Mt. Gox keeps claiming that no BTC were stolen???
I had 20.19 BTC stolen 2 days before the news of the database leak became public.  I reported it to Mt Gox before the news became public and I have the automated email they sent back as proof.  I have not heard a peep out of them about it.
I have seen many other similar stories, where people got their BTC and/or money stolen out of their accounts as well during this same time frame. Mt. Gox's claim is that people that had money stolen had matching login information, so it couldn't have been hacked so they are not responsible.  I'm 100% positive that my BTC were stolen because my password was cracked from the leaked database.  Mt. Gox should be liable for this, and I believe I should be reimbursed.
I've posted to every single thread I've seen regarding Mt. Gox and stolen money, but they have yet to reply even once.

I for one will jump on any class action suit I can find.

[Remotay]

To the people threatening to sue MtGox - you guys need to get your head's examined. Any of you remember the May Flash Crash? It happened on the ACTUAL stock market - the one where the big boys play. Proctor & Gamble was trading at $0.01. Guess what happened? The trades were reversed - AND this happened without ANYONE getting "hacked".

Stop feeling so entitled - when Mtgox re-opens you'll have your bitcoins / USD back in your account. Also stop complaining about security - 90% of the people here complaining about the lack of security on the site know ZERO about the issue at hand. It's not like MtGox kept all the passwords in a txt file somewhere on his server - He made a legitimate attempt to keep them secure.

[The_Duke]

To the people threatening to sue MtGox - you guys need to get your head's examined. Any of you remember the May Flash Crash? It happened on the ACTUAL stock market - the one where the big boys play. Proctor & Gamble was trading at $0.01. Guess what happened? The trades were reversed - AND this happened without ANYONE getting "hacked".

Stop feeling so entitled - when Mtgox re-opens you'll have your bitcoins / USD back in your account. Also stop complaining about security - 90% of the people here complaining about the lack of security on the site know ZERO about the issue at hand. It's not like MtGox kept all the passwords in a txt file somewhere on his server - He made a legitimate attempt to keep them secure.

And there's your difference. If the sstock exchange had freely given an auditor information he shouldn't have had, which resulted in the flash crash you can bet your ass someone would have been sued.

[Remotay]

Are you kidding? WAY more people have access to the Nasdaq trading computers (Nasdaq employees) than people who have back end access (legitimately) to MtGox servers, so I have no idea what you're complaining about.

[Epinnoia]

1000 btc i had but i really doubt mtgox will come back
i also dont care cause im a USD-millionaire already so BTC is just a playground for me... all the gains i get from playing the market i put into charities.

Nice...

[onesalt]

Force Majeure clauses literally translate as an act of god. ie, an event it is impossible to ever fully prepare for or deal with effectively. An example of this would be an earthquake, which no matter how strongly built or how earthquakeproofed a building, worksite or suchlike it is it will have huge ramifications that will effectively cancel a contract. Same with tornados, volcanic activity or tidal waves, etc.

Force Majeure does not Cover gross incompetence such as failing to correctly store data or information. The only time you could reasonably claim force majeure with respect to website operations would be if the server farm caught fire or there was a power failure for an extended period of time.

[bitcoinminer]

Force Majeure does not Cover gross incompetence such as failing to correctly store data or information. The only time you could reasonably claim force majeure with respect to website operations would be if the server farm caught fire or there was a power failure for an extended period of time.

Not true... you could reasonably claim force majeure if you had schizophrenia, or extreme mental retardation.

[unk]

Force Majeure does not Cover gross incompetence such as failing to correctly store data or information. The only time you could reasonably claim force majeure with respect to website operations would be if the server farm caught fire or there was a power failure for an extended period of time.

Not true... you could reasonably claim force majeure if you had schizophrenia, or extreme mental retardation.

no you couldn't; that would void the contract ab initio.

if you were struck later with a sudden epilepsy that prevented you from performing an obligation, that could count as force majeure.

[beeph]

lol, in this country.. america.. one can sue anyone for any reason at any time.. u just need to convince a judge or jury (wonder how popular the frenchman will be to a US jury)

Someone once sued mcdonalds for their coffee being too hot.. lot of bored, out of work, lawyers in the US.

So if you really lost money with them i'd find the US entity they transact with and just call a lawyer up in their state and ask for a free consultation.
If you are smart you dont even need a lawyer really you can just do it all yourself and start filing subpoenas with the county clerk for 25$.  It's up to their lawyer to contest your subpoena.

Get a court date set, and subpoena everything you can.

Oh and by the way, I'm sure there were plenty of lawsuits about the flash crash in may.. yer a deluded if u dont think that.

The above is NOT legal advice, consult your own lawyer to see how you should proceed with your individual situation.

http://www.vanosteen.com/mcdonalds-coffee-lawsuit.htm   - they wont 2 mil+ on it
http://money.cnn.com/2003/01/22/news/companies/mcdonalds/ - lawsuit blaming mcdonalds for 'making them fat' haha they lost that one

god bless america

[oneforall]

lol, in this country.. america.. one can sue anyone for any reason at any time.. u just need to convince a judge or jury
Someone once sued mcdonalds for their coffee being too hot.. lot of bored, out of work, lawyers in the US.

So if you really lost money with them i'd find the US entity they transact with and just call a lawyer up in their state and ask for a free consultation.
If you are smart you dont even need a lawyer really you can just do it all yourself and start filing subpoenas with the county clerk for 25$.  It's up to their lawyer to contest your subpoena.

Get a court date set, and subpoena everything you can.

Oh and by the way, I'm sure there were plenty of lawsuits about the flash crash in may.. yer a deluded if u dont think that.

RING RING

-Acme law office, how may i direct you call?

+I need to talk to a lawyer, immediately!

-Please hold.

*pause*

-Hello, how can i help you?

+hello, mr. lawyer man, i gave my internet points(which me and my friends sure do like a whole bunch) to somebody on the internet in a different country that i don't know and he held on to them for 5 days and then gave them back to me, so now I want to sue him. I'm really really smart, so i know i have a case, but i need somebody who knows about all that fancy law stuff to help me out, how about you do this for free and i'll pay you when we win?

*pause*

+hello? mr. lawyer? mr. lawyer, did you hang up on me?!?! I'm suing you!!




If bitcoin was more popular, maybe we'd see this skit on SNL 

[beeph]

lol, in this country.. america.. one can sue anyone for any reason at any time.. u just need to convince a judge or jury
Someone once sued mcdonalds for their coffee being too hot.. lot of bored, out of work, lawyers in the US.

So if you really lost money with them i'd find the US entity they transact with and just call a lawyer up in their state and ask for a free consultation.
If you are smart you dont even need a lawyer really you can just do it all yourself and start filing subpoenas with the county clerk for 25$.  It's up to their lawyer to contest your subpoena.

Get a court date set, and subpoena everything you can.

Oh and by the way, I'm sure there were plenty of lawsuits about the flash crash in may.. yer a deluded if u dont think that.

RING RING

-Acme law office, how may i direct you call?

+I need to talk to a lawyer, immediately!

-Please hold.

*pause*

-Hello, how can i help you?

+hello, mr. lawyer man, i gave my internet points(which me and my friends sure do like a whole bunch) to somebody on the internet in a different country that i don't know and he held on to them for 5 days and then gave them back to me, so now I want to sue him. I'm really really smart, so i know i have a case, but i need somebody who knows about all that fancy law stuff to help me out, how about you do this for free and i'll pay you when we win?

*pause*

+hello? mr. lawyer? mr. lawyer, did you hang up on me?!?! I'm suing you!!




If bitcoin was more popular, maybe we'd see this skit on SNL  

I bet you I can sue these guys.. wanna bet?  I will post the details on here step by step instructions and get a case number for you - we can use that arbitration service to settle the wager lol, anyone know the name of the LLC/state it operated in that handled their US payments?  I'll get on the horn first thing monday.. I got provable damages in US dollars over small claims amounts too

[oneforall]

lol, in this country.. america.. one can sue anyone for any reason at any time.. u just need to convince a judge or jury
Someone once sued mcdonalds for their coffee being too hot.. lot of bored, out of work, lawyers in the US.

So if you really lost money with them i'd find the US entity they transact with and just call a lawyer up in their state and ask for a free consultation.
If you are smart you dont even need a lawyer really you can just do it all yourself and start filing subpoenas with the county clerk for 25$.  It's up to their lawyer to contest your subpoena.

Get a court date set, and subpoena everything you can.

Oh and by the way, I'm sure there were plenty of lawsuits about the flash crash in may.. yer a deluded if u dont think that.

RING RING

-Acme law office, how may i direct you call?

+I need to talk to a lawyer, immediately!

-Please hold.

*pause*

-Hello, how can i help you?

+hello, mr. lawyer man, i gave my internet points(which me and my friends sure do like a whole bunch) to somebody on the internet in a different country that i don't know and he held on to them for 5 days and then gave them back to me, so now I want to sue him. I'm really really smart, so i know i have a case, but i need somebody who knows about all that fancy law stuff to help me out, how about you do this for free and i'll pay you when we win?

*pause*

+hello? mr. lawyer? mr. lawyer, did you hang up on me?!?! I'm suing you!!




If bitcoin was more popular, maybe we'd see this skit on SNL 

I bet you I can sue these guys.. wanna bet?

I bet you can sue them. I bet you can't win. I bet suing them is like making a bet considering if you lose the lawsuit you lose money and if you win the lawsuit you win money. There's your bet for you.

One more bet - I bet to win you would need lots of luck, since you don't have lots of logic.

[beeph]

lol, in this country.. america.. one can sue anyone for any reason at any time.. u just need to convince a judge or jury
Someone once sued mcdonalds for their coffee being too hot.. lot of bored, out of work, lawyers in the US.

So if you really lost money with them i'd find the US entity they transact with and just call a lawyer up in their state and ask for a free consultation.
If you are smart you dont even need a lawyer really you can just do it all yourself and start filing subpoenas with the county clerk for 25$.  It's up to their lawyer to contest your subpoena.

Get a court date set, and subpoena everything you can.

Oh and by the way, I'm sure there were plenty of lawsuits about the flash crash in may.. yer a deluded if u dont think that.

RING RING

-Acme law office, how may i direct you call?

+I need to talk to a lawyer, immediately!

-Please hold.

*pause*

-Hello, how can i help you?

+hello, mr. lawyer man, i gave my internet points(which me and my friends sure do like a whole bunch) to somebody on the internet in a different country that i don't know and he held on to them for 5 days and then gave them back to me, so now I want to sue him. I'm really really smart, so i know i have a case, but i need somebody who knows about all that fancy law stuff to help me out, how about you do this for free and i'll pay you when we win?

*pause*

+hello? mr. lawyer? mr. lawyer, did you hang up on me?!?! I'm suing you!!




If bitcoin was more popular, maybe we'd see this skit on SNL  

I bet you I can sue these guys.. wanna bet?

I bet you can sue them. I bet you can't win. I bet suing them is like making a bet considering if you lose the lawsuit you lose money and if you win the lawsuit you win money. There's your bet for you.

One more bet - I bet to win you would need lots of luck, since you don't have lots of logic.

lol correct, suing and winning are two totally different things.  Well, first I'll give them a chance to give me my money back, but they've ignored every email so far.  Then I'm going to try a reversal through my bank and if that fails, I'll send a certified letter to their payment process in the US, if that fails, then I will sue.. and I bet I win too or at least get a judgement vs their payment processor in the US.  I've sued multiple times and been sued myself multiple times.  One time I flew all the way to alabama and lost the case in about 5 minutes.

This magical tux guy comes off like a total a-hole to be honest so I'd relish this opportunity.  He seems to think that being the target of hate mail, lawsuits and other threats is just a random occurence and indicative that everyone must be insane but him, messiah complex.

[oneforall]

lol correct, suing and winning are two totally different things.  Well, first I'll give them a chance to give me my money back, but they've ignored every email so far.  Then I'm going to try a reversal through my bank and if that fails, I'll send a certified letter to their payment process in the US, if that fails, then I will sue.. and I bet I win too or at least get a judgement vs their payment processor in the US.  I've sued multiple times and been sued myself multiple times.  One time I flew all the way to alabama and lost the case in about 5 minutes.

I'd say that makes you more qualified than me in this field then. I've never sued anybody and wouldn't know if I've been sued, I've been in a constant state of travel since i was 18 and would not be able to be reached by anyone to tell me I'm being sued.. lol. i hope you are able to work it out the way that is most convenient/fair for all parties involved.

[Anduril]

I bet you I can sue these guys.. wanna bet?  I will post the details on here step by step instructions and get a case number for you - we can use that arbitration service to settle the wager lol, anyone know the name of the LLC/state it operated in that handled their US payments?  I'll get on the horn first thing monday.. I got provable damages in US dollars over small claims amounts too

You cannot sue their payment intermediaries in the United States (well, you can, but you are not likely to be successful) , there is a considerable body of case law that declares intermediaries are not liable for actions committed by their customers unless the intermediary is a direct party to the transaction (for a good example, see Tiffany v eBay 576 F.Supp.2d 463 (2008) ).

[beeph]

I bet you I can sue these guys.. wanna bet?  I will post the details on here step by step instructions and get a case number for you - we can use that arbitration service to settle the wager lol, anyone know the name of the LLC/state it operated in that handled their US payments?  I'll get on the horn first thing monday.. I got provable damages in US dollars over small claims amounts too

You cannot sue their payment intermediaries in the United States (well, you can, but you are not likely to be successful) , there is a considerable body of case law that declares intermediaries are not liable for actions committed by their customers unless the intermediary is a direct party to the transaction (for a good example, see Tiffany v eBay 576 F.Supp.2d 463 (2008) ).

Well we'll see, I'll definitely be notifying their state's securities regulators and that LLC directly exactly who they're processing payments for, and then they can judge themselves if they want to accept liability or just cut them off.

I'm getting my money back.. nearly 1000$ (not bitcoins) and they wont even respond to my emails.  Someone's gonna fucking pay.

[unk]

i noticed in the now-deleted 'support' thread at support.mtgox.com that several customers claimed to have contacted the japanese consulate in the united states and were told that tibanne trading was not properly registered and that a criminal investigation was being mounted. i have no idea if those claims were reliable, but they seemed to be backed up by different parties. i mention it only because i was surprised not to see any mention of that in this forum, though perhaps i missed it.

(again, i don't mean to lend any credence to those rumours. the quality of the 'support' thread was not very high.)

[beeph]

i noticed in the now-deleted 'support' thread at support.mtgox.com that several customers claimed to have contacted the japanese consulate in the united states and were told that tibanne trading was not properly registered and that a criminal investigation was being mounted. i have no idea if those claims were reliable, but they seemed to be backed up by different parties. i mention it only because i was surprised not to see any mention of that in this forum, though perhaps i missed it.

(again, i don't mean to lend any credence to those rumours. the quality of the 'support' thread was not very high.)

It is unclear if the exchange is registered as a Financial Instruments Firm with the Japanese regulator Kanto Local Finance Bureau (Ministry of Finance).  The firm’s website lists Mutum Sigillum, LLC of Delaware as a subsidiary and that is the name associated with the Dwolla account provided to those in the U.S. for moving funds to and from the exchange.  


Ahhhh a US subsidiary then...  If you're filing suit I would recommend that company (though im sure its an assetless shell).
If we can drive them into bankruptcy I'm sure Dwolla will drop them..  and at least stop these incompetent clowns from wreaking more havoc on the bitcoin economy lol.

[Horkabork]

Force Majeure sounds like a 1980's A-team clone, where some hard-assed ex-military guy named "Captain Buck Majeure" puts together a team of the roughest, toughest sons of bitches that he can find. There's Noodles, a tall, lanky explosives expert and the team's chef. In typical explosives-expert fashion, he's clumsy, fumbly, and awkward... that is until explosives are involved! Then, he's got nerves of steel and never makes a mistake. He also has coke-bottle glasses, but during the action he puts on a pair of wrap-around goggles and suddenly looks like a badass frogman.

Then there's Steel Hardcastle, a massive man whose skin is practically bulletproof for all the times he's been shot, stabbed, burned, or blown up. Steel speaks in grunts and never fires anything smaller that 50 calibers. His hands are so huge that every couple of episodes he picks up a bad guy by their head. For comic relief, wimpier opponents sometimes just faint at the prospect of having to fight him. Sometimes, he surprises everyone by actually saying more than a few words at a time and then quotes several meaningful, poetic lines of a literature passage that's relevant to the situation at hand. This is usually right before everyone starts to laugh. Freeze frame. Roll credits.

Then there's Chip, the only female in the group (but she still has a semi-masculine nickname). She's an expert at espionage and knives. The show opens a few times by showing a strange-looking young man with a hat hanging out with the enemy and acting slightly suspicious. Then we watch that young man leave, hide behind a wall, and peel off facial prosthetics and the hat, shaking her long red hair in slow motion as the "young man" is revealed to be a sultry woman in disguise.

There's a pilot named Dietrich, whose gimmick is that he's German and keeps trying to say and screwing up English idioms, such as "Don't put all your roosters in one bucket." After two episodes, he'll disappear from the series with no explanation, only to show up 5 seasons later with a throwaway one-liner that hangs a lantern on his absence. Really, the producers suddenly realized that they couldn't afford helicopters, planes, and speedboats in every episode, so the character was practically useless. Also, racist 1980s audiences didn't like it that he was German.

After Dietrich, a Sniper named R.J. "Trigger" McIntyre joins the team when they rescue him from a Columbian guerrilla camp where he was held captive for 6 years (He was part of a black operation and his government disavowed him). He's Scottish and likes to wisecrack and tell jokes over the radio while the team is in the shit and he's sniping from afar. His shooting of bad guys is oddly subpar, but he often hits tiny targets like ropes hanging from cranes, the tires on cars several miles away and driving fast, guns out of people's hands, and any dynamite or propane tank that might happen to be lying on the ground near a hidden enemy.

Captain Buck Majeure himself is a mystery to his soldiers. He seems to have friends and contacts everywhere, but his past is a shadowy spider's web of connections and lies. Whenever the soldiers have a chance to talk to one of his "old buddies" about him, they seem to know him by different names and have a different story every time: He used to be a Navy Seal. He's former CIA. He once saved the President's life. He took down a group of terrorists in a bomb plot and then G-men tried to kill him because they wanted to keep the threat a secret. Captain Majeure always wears reflective sunglasses and looks a little like General Patton. When the action gets tight and it seems like Force Majeure is in trouble and are not going to make it this time, a Deus ex Machina rescues them and Captain Majeure acts like it was his plan the whole time. His only weapon seems to be a 6-shooter pistol that he keeps in a low-slung holster.

Then there's the unofficial second-in-command, Sam White. He's a jack-of-all-trades and is the default point-man for the group, often meeting with clients and scouting new jobs. He gets captured, beaten, and released a lot by the bad guys, who let him live only to "delivery a message" to Captain Majeure. Sam also does a lot of Macgyveresque improvised weapons. He and Chip have a bit of perpetual sexual tension punctuated by little fights that are secretly flirtatious.

He sometimes is at odds with Captain Majeure, saying things like "It's too risky. God dammit. I'll go in alone!" In the final episode arc of the series, Captain Majeure reveals to Sam that he is his father when Sam's mother is captured by some bad guys.

Then they go around the world fighting for justice using their OWN set of rules. FORCE MAJEURE!

[fisheye]

Someone once sued mcdonalds for their coffee being too hot.. lot of bored, out of work, lawyers in the US.
http://www.vanosteen.com/mcdonalds-coffee-lawsuit.htm   - they wont 2 mil+ on it

read your own link. that lawsuit was pretty justified. the coffee wasn't just "hot", it was hot enough to cause 3rd degree burns on the lady's genitals and thighs, which required extensive medical care. she wanted $20k to cover the medical costs - McD's offered her $800. And a settlement was eventually made for far less than the 2mil jury verdict.

[Anduril]

Well we'll see, I'll definitely be notifying their state's securities regulators and that LLC directly exactly who they're processing payments for, and then they can judge themselves if they want to accept liability or just cut them off.

I'm getting my money back.. nearly 1000$ (not bitcoins) and they wont even respond to my emails.  Someone's gonna fucking pay.

Payment intermediaries are not liable for anything done by MtGox, period. Do read the case I cited, it is a simple Google away, you cannot sue intermediaries for what MtGox did or did not do.

Don't you think that international litigation will cost you more than $1k USD?

[Cryptodude2020]

Question for someone who may have done this or knows more. How do you sue a Crypto exchange and where do you initiate it? I live in US however what happens if the exchange does not have any presence in US?

HITBTC seems to be systematically blocking thoughts of users from accessing their account in pretense of security and a class action suite seems to be the only option left. Any one has any idea how to peruse this? Any attorney who may be willing to take this?

Any help in this regards is appreciated.