[TO THEYMOS AND MODS] BFL scammer tag?

[Nightowlace]

I will not be surprised when the media picks up on yet another "bitcoin" lawsuit. A class action lawsuit worth millions of dollars and hundreds of Plaintiff's ranging from corporate execs, lawyers, entrepreneur's, etc. will make headlines. Especially involving BTC. If there is ever a community that can make your life a living hell, this would be the one. I would hate to be BFL and not start shipping large quantities of singles in the next few weeks. 

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[abbyd]

The conflict of interest here is disgusting. I am calling on the forum to pay back defrauded customers out of Bitcointalk advertising funds, up to and including the total amount paid by BFL. Considering they are profits from illicit activities (fraud), that their primary customer base was forum users here, the fact that Bitcointalk refuses to act to mitigate this damage makes me conclude that is is an equitable response given the additional fact that they are currently ACTIVELY COMPLICIT IN FRAUD. Have you ever considered that the forum might share legal liability in this? Chew on that for a couple of minutes.

Let's backtrack a little bit: we all use this forum FOR FREE, so a bit of ad revenue likely keeps the place running (and provides a small incentive for the hours of toil known as moderating).

You can visit millions of sites that advertise all sorts of scammy crap or even give you malware. If you're at all technically inclined, you can block ads. People who believe what they read in a banner ad can't be all that smart... I don't believe a site owner can be held personally accountable for ads they run. Given that the ad relationship is likely direct (rather than via an ad network), the mods COULD turn the heat up on BFL a bit. From theymos's response, it looks like he has done exactly this.

I first mentioned the BFL ad revenue conflict of interest, and I do feel that this issue was addressed. That said, if I had ever sent money to BFL, I would've demanded a refund months ago...

[smoothie]

The conflict of interest here is disgusting. I am calling on the forum to pay back defrauded customers out of Bitcointalk advertising funds, up to and including the total amount paid by BFL. Considering they are profits from illicit activities (fraud), that their primary customer base was forum users here, the fact that Bitcointalk refuses to act to mitigate this damage makes me conclude that is is an equitable response given the additional fact that they are currently ACTIVELY COMPLICIT IN FRAUD. Have you ever considered that the forum might share legal liability in this? Chew on that for a couple of minutes.

Don't be dumb, if people want their money back from BFL all they have to do is ask for a refund. The complaints (as far as I can tell) are that they are taking too long to get the orders out, and they don't meet expectations, not that people can't get their money back.

People CAN get their money back as long as new customers are still placing pre-orders. Once EVERYONE realizes that BFL is a big scam and they all stop ordering then their will be zero refunds because all of the funds will be gone. That is classic Ponzi Scheme, use the new money to pay the old money but sooner or later all the money dries up and you go to federal prison. Just sayin.

So you honestly believe they haven't used up every bit of that preorder money on research, development, advertising, employee payroll, etc. etc. If you think they just put that in a nice interest bearing savings account you need to lay off the Kool-Aid

I think that they do not have enough money to service all current outstanding preorders without taking any new preorder customer money.

That is where the PONZI lay.

[TECSHARE]

The conflict of interest here is disgusting. I am calling on the forum to pay back defrauded customers out of Bitcointalk advertising funds, up to and including the total amount paid by BFL. Considering they are profits from illicit activities (fraud), that their primary customer base was forum users here, the fact that Bitcointalk refuses to act to mitigate this damage makes me conclude that is is an equitable response given the additional fact that they are currently ACTIVELY COMPLICIT IN FRAUD. Have you ever considered that the forum might share legal liability in this? Chew on that for a couple of minutes.

Let's backtrack a little bit: we all use this forum FOR FREE, so a bit of ad revenue likely keeps the place running (and provides a small incentive for the hours of toil known as moderating).

You can visit millions of sites that advertise all sorts of scammy crap or even give you malware. If you're at all technically inclined, you can block ads. People who believe what they read in a banner ad can't be all that smart... I don't believe a site owner can be held personally accountable for ads they run. Given that the ad relationship is likely direct (rather than via an ad network), the mods COULD turn the heat up on BFL a bit. From theymos's response, it looks like he has done exactly this.

I first mentioned the BFL ad revenue conflict of interest, and I do feel that this issue was addressed. That said, if I had ever sent money to BFL, I would've demanded a refund months ago...

I like this forum as well, which is why I don't want to see it SUED OUT OF EXISTENCE. If they continue to accept money from them knowingly after they have clearly been shown to be operating fraudulently, they can indeed be held complicit. The whole "oh we didn't know" honey moon is over. Take old yeller out back and shoot him before he bites you and gives you rabies.

[MPOE-PR]

A class action lawsuit worth millions of dollars and hundreds of Plaintiff's

What's with this Internet obsession with "class action lawsuits"? Other than the obvious "expensive litigation you don't need to pay for upfront and somebody else is managing".

I like this forum as well, which is why I don't want to see it SUED OUT OF EXISTENCE. If they continue to accept money from them knowingly after they have clearly been shown to be operating fraudulently, they can indeed be held complicit. The whole "oh we didn't know" honey moon is over. Take old yeller out back and shoot him before he bites you and gives you rabies.

Must lurk moar.

[pekv2]

The conflict of interest here is disgusting. I am calling on the forum to pay back defrauded customers out of Bitcointalk advertising funds, up to and including the total amount paid by BFL. Considering they are profits from illicit activities (fraud), that their primary customer base was forum users here, the fact that Bitcointalk refuses to act to mitigate this damage makes me conclude that is is an equitable response given the additional fact that they are currently ACTIVELY COMPLICIT IN FRAUD. Have you ever considered that the forum might share legal liability in this? Chew on that for a couple of minutes.

Let's backtrack a little bit: we all use this forum FOR FREE

Are you sure?

Sorry theymos. I don't agree on being forced to see something, I think the users should have a decision.

But you're happy to use the service for free?  Ads are how you "pay" for using the forums.

Not my statement. But tvsats.

[tysat]

The conflict of interest here is disgusting. I am calling on the forum to pay back defrauded customers out of Bitcointalk advertising funds, up to and including the total amount paid by BFL. Considering they are profits from illicit activities (fraud), that their primary customer base was forum users here, the fact that Bitcointalk refuses to act to mitigate this damage makes me conclude that is is an equitable response given the additional fact that they are currently ACTIVELY COMPLICIT IN FRAUD. Have you ever considered that the forum might share legal liability in this? Chew on that for a couple of minutes.

Let's backtrack a little bit: we all use this forum FOR FREE

Are you sure?

How is it not free?

Sorry theymos. I don't agree on being forced to see something, I think the users should have a decision.

But you're happy to use the service for free?  Ads are how you "pay" for using the forums.

Not my statement. But tvsats.

Not sure who this tvsat guy is, but he sounds cool.

[Nightowlace]

A class action lawsuit worth millions of dollars and hundreds of Plaintiff's

What's with this Internet obsession with "class action lawsuits"? Other than the obvious "expensive litigation you don't need to pay for upfront and somebody else is managing".

It's not an obsession. Individual lawsuits would be tedious, 90% of them would not be able to surpass "small claims" status and would not have the desired impact and/or implication of the greater picture. The fact that hundreds if not thousands are being swindled out of there money. A calculated, organized, hit like a class action lawsuit represented by powerful attorneys would finally put this nightmare to an end.

I am sure the cost would be minimal as this is a popular subject right now and the media attention alone would be worth thousands to a firm. I also believe that BFL does have some significant assets even if they are hidden I'm sure a group of savy tech people like this one could track down a good portion of those assets.

[pekv2]

Individual lawsuits would be tedious, 90% of them would not be able to surpass "small claims" status and would not have the desired impact and/or implication of the greater picture. The fact that hundreds if not thousands are being swindled out of there money. A calculated, organized, hit like a class action lawsuit represented by powerful attorneys would finally put this nightmare to an end.

This would be a grand slam in my book. Put it to an end, before others lose out.

[MPOE-PR]

It's not an obsession. Individual lawsuits would be tedious, 90% of them would not be able to surpass "small claims" status and would not have the desired impact and/or implication of the greater picture. The fact that hundreds if not thousands are being swindled out of there money. A calculated, organized, hit like a class action lawsuit represented by powerful attorneys would finally put this nightmare to an end.

I think you are completely missing the point. What's missing to make a bunch of small claims into a successful class action suit is a) calculated; b) organized; c) a bunch of powerful attorneys; d) a basis for all this.

Simply renaming the collection of small claims into "a class action suit" does not accomplish any of these any more than the re-re-relabelling of US unemployment or homelessness finds people jobs or homes.

I am sure the cost would be minimal as this is a popular subject right now and the media attention alone would be worth thousands to a firm. I also believe that BFL does have some significant assets even if they are hidden I'm sure a group of savy tech people like this one could track down a good portion of those assets.

This sort of "I'm sure nothing that's popular costs anything" nonsense shows plainly you have no idea how things work. For your own benefit (ie to get your brain out of the swamp), compile a list of all the people famous during the '90s, put on one column a "famous index", percentile of fame total as evaluated by you and on the other column their total net worth as a percentile of the total net worth of the world. Or, if you prefer ten zeroes after the point instead of twelve, go with a percentile of the decade's worldwide GDP.

You've not quite built communism yet. The currency of the land still isn't "fame". Why exactly do you think the media can't even afford to pay the sort of clueless interns currently involved?

(Since we're doing research tasks to benefit your education, find twenty successful class action suits, calculate the average litigation costs over the set, divide it by "thousands" and report the multiplier. That's how many times you have to say "sorry I'm lazy and stupid, will do more research on my own in the future".)

[Atruk]

It's not an obsession. Individual lawsuits would be tedious, 90% of them would not be able to surpass "small claims" status and would not have the desired impact and/or implication of the greater picture. The fact that hundreds if not thousands are being swindled out of there money. A calculated, organized, hit like a class action lawsuit represented by powerful attorneys would finally put this nightmare to an end.

I am sure the cost would be minimal as this is a popular subject right now and the media attention alone would be worth thousands to a firm. I also believe that BFL does have some significant assets even if they are hidden I'm sure a group of savy tech people like this one could track down a good portion of those assets.

In a number jurisdictions in the United States small claims court judgments frequently award triple damages and will accept cases where damages are up to several thousand (varies state by state and sometimes county to county, also the price of a couple small miners or maybe one or two of whatever they are calling the thing under the minirig now). A number of small claims judgments would be much more damaging to a firm than a single massive class action suit.

Much like mining there would probably be a substantial first mover advantage for those seeking small claims judgments first, taking their judgments while there is still something to take.

Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer

[Nightowlace]

It's not an obsession. Individual lawsuits would be tedious, 90% of them would not be able to surpass "small claims" status and would not have the desired impact and/or implication of the greater picture. The fact that hundreds if not thousands are being swindled out of there money. A calculated, organized, hit like a class action lawsuit represented by powerful attorneys would finally put this nightmare to an end.

I think you are completely missing the point. What's missing to make a bunch of small claims into a successful class action suit is a) calculated; b) organized; c) a bunch of powerful attorneys; d) a basis for all this.

Simply renaming the collection of small claims into "a class action suit" does not accomplish any of these any more than the re-re-relabelling of US unemployment or homelessness finds people jobs or homes.

I am sure the cost would be minimal as this is a popular subject right now and the media attention alone would be worth thousands to a firm. I also believe that BFL does have some significant assets even if they are hidden I'm sure a group of savy tech people like this one could track down a good portion of those assets.

This sort of "I'm sure nothing that's popular costs anything" nonsense shows plainly you have no idea how things work. For your own benefit (ie to get your brain out of the swamp), compile a list of all the people famous during the '90s, put on one column a "famous index", percentile of fame total as evaluated by you and on the other column their total net worth as a percentile of the total net worth of the world. Or, if you prefer ten zeroes after the point instead of twelve, go with a percentile of the decade's worldwide GDP.

You've not quite built communism yet. The currency of the land still isn't "fame". Why exactly do you think the media can't even afford to pay the sort of clueless interns currently involved?

(Since we're doing research tasks to benefit your education, find twenty successful class action suits, calculate the average litigation costs over the set, divide it by "thousands" and report the multiplier. That's how many times you have to say "sorry I'm lazy and stupid, will do more research on my own in the future".)

Clearly you are not from the states? Either that or I would assume (yes making an ass out of you and me) that you are based in New York City.
You see there is only one thing Americans value more than money, it's called Fame. This is why major firms take on cases of mass serial murderers pro bono or as a public defender because even though they will be receiving a fraction of what they typically would make they will be receiving the media attention and publicity that only millions if dollars in advertising could buy.
Why wouldn't a prominent law firm with the staff and resources to take this on not? They will get mass media attention. They will be helping a prominent community that if ever needed again could probably hire and pay for their services. They would receive hundreds of thousands in "free" publicity. They will be the go to firm for future legal support when dealing with Bitcoin related items (which could very well put their firm at the forefront of the future). Plus they would be entitled to 33% of any settlement.

[Atruk]

Clearly you are not from the states? Either that or I would assume (yes making an ass out of you and me) that you are based in New York City.
You see there is only one thing Americans value more than money, it's called Fame. This is why major firms take on cases of mass serial murderers pro bono or as a public defender because even though they will be receiving a fraction of what they typically would make they will be receiving the media attention and publicity that only millions if dollars in advertising could buy.
Why wouldn't a prominent law firm with the staff and resources to take this on not? They will get mass media attention. They will be helping a prominent community that if ever needed again could probably hire and pay for their services. They would receive hundreds of thousands in "free" publicity. They will be the go to firm for future legal support when dealing with Bitcoin related items (which could very well put their firm at the forefront of the future). Plus they would be entitled to 33% of any settlement.

A large firm taking on a class action could make a lot of money while the plaintiffs, other than a select couple leading the class, make very little. The lawyers get the fame and the money. The victims get... coupons, rebates, a small token sum when the case is inevitably settled?

For any person who feels like pursuing legal action consulting a lawyer on their own would probably be in their best interest. I have a suspicion that small claims for many people could lead to a better financial outcome than a class action.

[MPOE-PR]

Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer

Perhaps, but you have a point. Small claims are easier to prosecute and more potentially damaging in aggregate to the offender. Class action is a measure to protect THE RESPONDENT, not the litigants. Other people who, much like you, also aren't lawyers have much much less of a clue.

[Nightowlace]

Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer

Perhaps, but you have a point. Small claims are easier to prosecute and more potentially damaging in aggregate to the offender. Class action is a measure to protect THE RESPONDENT, not the litigants. Other people who, much like you, also aren't lawyers have much much less of a clue.

It's not about the settlement for me. It's about the outcome. If it will shut down the scam once and for all and put all the desperate miners waiting for their machines out of their misery then lets get it down and move on with our lives.

[mem]

They should at least label them as 'Untrustworthy'.

They should probably just label them as BFL.

You mean "Big Fucking Liars"?

I was trying to put together BFL to something like above that is in bold. Good job, that's what it means.

Big Fucking Liars is my phrase, I coined it first

[MPOE-PR]

Big Fucking Liars is my phrase, I coined it first

Nah, you're just a racist.

[mem]

Big Fucking Liars is my phrase, I coined it first

Nah, you're just a racist.

Again I catch you lying MR-POO'ER

Its a shame you are not mature enough to argue a topic (any topic it seems) without degrading yourself by lying and throwing around racial slurs.

For those that are curious, dont take my word for it - MR-POO'ER frequently falls back on lies and slander when confronted:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=186043.msg2281223#msg2281223

Dont mistake unlimited arrogance for intelligence, this is just a racist troll that hits google for his/her/its info and when unable to defend their position anymore resorts to lies or abandoning threads.

[MPOE-PR]

Big Fucking Liars is my phrase, I coined it first

Nah, you're just a racist.

Again I catch you lying MR-POO'ER

Its a shame you are not mature enough to argue a topic (any topic it seems) without degrading yourself by lying and throwing around racial slurs.

For those that are curious, dont take my word for it - MR-POO'ER frequently falls back on lies and slander when confronted:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=186043.msg2281223#msg2281223

Dont mistake unlimited arrogance for intelligence, this is just a racist troll that hits google for his/her/its info and when unable to defend their position anymore resorts to lies or abandoning threads.

You're just saying this because your avatar is an off-white sockpuppet.