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S3052
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December 04, 2010, 10:57:50 AM
 #21

You all seem to assume that bitcoins will remain legal Tongue

the more of this dubiouss and even illegal ideas float around in this forum the sooner it will be just called illegal by governments and then the party is over.

I don't think most people here want that. But fine, if a handful of people want to destroy the work Satoshi has started more than 1.5 years ago and hundreds of people here have developed further, even try to make a living from Bitcoins, that's probably unavoidable (as noone can rule anything here behind the decentralization)

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December 04, 2010, 11:11:03 AM
 #22

blaa blaa shutdown forum. we just open a new one elsewhere. lol

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December 04, 2010, 11:27:55 AM
 #23

You all seem to assume that bitcoins will remain legal Tongue

I'm just assuming that they are legal right now.

The term "confiscation" reminds me of another important application for Bitcoin. 

Try traveling by air carrying more than US $10,000.   When security personnel find it, the police will (1) confiscate it, and (2) use it as "evidence" that you must be smuggling drugs or something.

Try carrying bags of gold and silver coins out of the country.

It seems to me that this is one very important application for Bitcoin.

Yep, probably a very important application.
Probably a very good reason for outlawing bitcoins altogether too I guess.

You all seem to assume that bitcoins will remain legal Tongue

the more of this dubiouss and even illegal ideas float around in this forum the sooner it will be just called illegal by governments and then the party is over.

I don't think most people here want that. But fine, if a handful of people want to destroy the work Satoshi has started more than 1.5 years ago and hundreds of people here have developed further, even try to make a living from Bitcoins, that's probably unavoidable (as noone can rule anything here behind the decentralization)

How about chilling down for a second, sit down, have a puff?
Yes, bitcoins make money laundering, drug trade, etc. much much easier.
It's a fact, not an opinion that should be silenced because of fear.

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December 04, 2010, 01:11:27 PM
 #24

By the way, a better method for drug selling is a stashes in random places and not send stuff by mail.

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December 04, 2010, 01:20:43 PM
 #25

By the way, a better method for drug selling is a stashes in random places and not send stuff by mail.

Good idea, but I don't really see that scale very well

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December 04, 2010, 06:04:15 PM
 #26

You all seem to assume that bitcoins will remain legal Tongue

the more of this dubiouss and even illegal ideas float around in this forum the sooner it will be just called illegal by governments and then the party is over.

I don't think most people here want that. But fine, if a handful of people want to destroy the work Satoshi has started more than 1.5 years ago and hundreds of people here have developed further, even try to make a living from Bitcoins, that's probably unavoidable (as noone can rule anything here behind the decentralization)

Yeah, when they call it illegal it'll be over, like drugs, prostitution, murder, and fraud.

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December 04, 2010, 06:33:53 PM
 #27

I agree with the concern, if bitcoin is loudly and largely touted for illegal activities, and is for that reason cracked down on, it won't eliminate bitcoin, but it will probably kill any chance of it having mainstream success, and therefore achieving greater things in the long term.

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December 04, 2010, 09:05:01 PM
 #28

You all seem to assume that bitcoins will remain legal Tongue
It would be very surprising to see legislation passed making bitcoin illegal.

IMO, bitcoin should remain an underground currency. While there are legitimate use for bitcoins, their security features will attract many "non-legitimate" users.. (i.e. M.O.M. services)
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December 04, 2010, 10:03:59 PM
 #29

...and even illegal ideas float around...

So far...  in the US, there are no "illegal ideas".  

It may be illegal to shout "Fire!" in a crowded theater, etc.   But ideas, are still legal here.   So far.

And, although I don't smoke...

Although pot is illegal...    It is something that has been proven to be safer than many many legal substances.   Thus, the majority of Americans think it should be legal.

Also -- like it or not -- it does represent a SIZABLE economy... all its own.

Just sayin'...    Wink

But, I do agree.  We should NOT publicly promote these uses.   ( They won't need our help anyway. )

I was just musing "aloud" about how someone in that business might make use of Bitcoin...   (I'm still not that convinced that it would be better/easier than plain old cash, for most of their purposes.)
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December 04, 2010, 10:29:03 PM
 #30

IMO, bitcoin should remain an underground currency. While there are legitimate use for bitcoins, their security features will attract many "non-legitimate" users.. (i.e. M.O.M. services)

And thus doom bitcoin to be forever marginalized.

I would rather see a large audience using bitcoin.  I want to free the world from the constraints of central banking and fractional reserve banking.

But that's not gonna happen if the majority of visible bitcoin purchases are for illegal or grey market goods and services.

Wider distribution and use of bitcoin means wider distribution and use of freedom.

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December 04, 2010, 10:49:13 PM
 #31

Wider distribution and use of bitcoin means wider distribution and use of freedom.

Now there's an illegal idea for ya.

By the way, a side thought:  if the "weed industry" were to suddenly embrace bitcoin...  What would that do to the value of a bitcoin?
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December 04, 2010, 11:10:06 PM
 #32

...and even illegal ideas float around...

So far...  in the US, there are no "illegal ideas".  

It may be illegal to shout "Fire!" in a crowded theater, etc.   But ideas, are still legal here.   So far.

And, although I don't smoke...

Although pot is illegal...    It is something that has been proven to be safer than many many legal substances.   Thus, the majority of Americans think it should be legal.

Also -- like it or not -- it does represent a SIZABLE economy... all its own.

Just sayin'...    Wink

But, I do agree.  We should NOT publicly promote these uses.   ( They won't need our help anyway. )

I was just musing "aloud" about how someone in that business might make use of Bitcoin...   (I'm still not that convinced that it would be better/easier than plain old cash, for most of their purposes.)

There is a vanishingly small group of people who think that things should be illegal because they can kill or hurt you. There is no push for making bleach illegal, but a few ounces can kill you. The reason for making pot illegal is so that police and drug dealers will make more money. The reason of safety is a smoke screen given by liars.

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December 05, 2010, 12:47:07 AM
 #33

Now there's an illegal idea for ya.

By the way, a side thought:  if the "weed industry" were to suddenly embrace bitcoin...  What would that do to the value of a bitcoin?

If the average user is having a hard time getting btc's what makes you think a pot head could do it Wink

Better motivation? Smiley

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December 05, 2010, 12:52:06 AM
 #34

Wider distribution and use of bitcoin means wider distribution and use of freedom.

Now there's an illegal idea for ya.

By the way, a side thought:  if the "weed industry" were to suddenly embrace bitcoin...  What would that do to the value of a bitcoin?


That has probably happened in some limited degree, but if even 10% of such trades were done in bitcoin, the value of one would easily be over $2. 

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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December 05, 2010, 01:44:14 AM
 #35

1. This will never work.
It is quite easy to track down any drug store by conventional means - by tracking the physical sent packages instead of coins themselves.

2. (Yeah, i know, that i can't stop anybody from doing anything, but I'm just stating my opinion) Why do You people try so hard to kill bitcoin so quickly before it has a chance to get more audience ?
I mean if You try to do every possible "dark businesses" such as drugs, prostitution, weapons through bitcoin, then You will quickly kill its mainstream adoption. Bitcoin will never become mainstream this way because governments will use all possible means to destroy it, the same as they are doing with wikileaks.
Why not stay low profile for year or 2, and then hit it will full power ?

For God's sake, at least give it a some time before starting half-legal or illegal buisnesses. Maybe by then we will be strong enough and achieve enough critical mass that we can't be stopped anymore...

But this is all pointless, i don't even know why the hell I am even typing this... Well, at least i have said it.

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December 05, 2010, 02:10:32 AM
 #36

2. (Yeah, i know, that i can't stop anybody from doing anything, but I'm just stating my opinion) Why do You people try so hard to kill bitcoin so quickly before it has a chance to get more audience ?
I mean if You try to do every possible "dark businesses" such as drugs, prostitution, weapons through bitcoin, then You will quickly kill its
[...]
For God's sake, at least give it a some time before starting half-legal or illegal buisnesses. Maybe by then we will be strong enough and achieve enough critical mass that we can't be stopped anymore...

Agreed.

Welcome to the selfish, paradoxical, self-destructive idiocy of "crypto-anarchism."

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December 06, 2010, 10:19:14 PM
 #37

2. (Yeah, i know, that i can't stop anybody from doing anything, but I'm just stating my opinion) Why do You people try so hard to kill bitcoin so quickly before it has a chance to get more audience ?
I mean if You try to do every possible "dark businesses" such as drugs, prostitution, weapons through bitcoin, then You will quickly kill its mainstream adoption. Bitcoin will never become mainstream this way because governments will use all possible means to destroy it, the same as they are doing with wikileaks.
Why not stay low profile for year or 2, and then hit it will full power ?

The way bitcoin is designed gives incentives to "dark businesses". Since bitcoin users are approximately rational, there is no use to appeal to somebodies ethics. This is an issue of the bitcoin architecture (e.g. give (negative) incentives or make it even more anonymous and robust against governments).
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December 06, 2010, 10:33:03 PM
 #38

Satoshi had essentially gave his words that we're going to stay low, at least for the time being.

In my opinion, this is the wise decision. There is no need to risk battle for high risk gain when we will obtain that anyway.

Plus, you also have to remember to factor in monetary inflation and federal reserve's policy. When the government does collapse, it will be incredibly m00t. Time is on our side, as long as we grow.

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December 06, 2010, 10:59:07 PM
 #39

...and even illegal ideas float around...

So far...  in the US, there are no "illegal ideas".  

It may be illegal to shout "Fire!" in a crowded theater, etc.   But ideas, are still legal here.   So far.

I wish that were to be the case, but in current legal environment in America, that is simply no longer the case, particularly for computer technology.

Dimitri Skylarov was arrested for "divulging" an "important trade secret" used for the encryption of e-books.  The "super secret cryptographic system" used for that encryption?  ROT-13.  I am not kidding, where ROT13 was considered to be a "dangerous munition" and "illegal for export" and this guy spent several months in jail for merely presenting a paper about this algorithm at a major cryptology conference.

There was also the story of DeCSS, where it is still illegal for websites in New York State to publish or display the contents of this particular program or to engage in its distribution.  This was a federal court ruling, but it only applied to the circuit courts over New York and not the rest of America and unfortunately was never appealed.  The software was released under the GPL, so the only rationale for its prohibition on distribution is strictly because the idea itself is illegal to spread.

There have also been many attempts to kill any publication or discussion on how to build a nuclear bomb.  This isn't saying that you are building the bomb, but if you publish the details on how to make one it has been routinely taken to some courts.  This has been particularly true about Hydrogen bomb more than ordinary fission bombs, even if you can document every single piece of information was derived from public sources of information (aka you didn't "steal" the documents from a leak like Wikileaks).

Since we are on the subject of cryptography, any sort of "strong" cryptography is illegal to "export" from America due to restrictions placed upon it by ITAR regulations.  If anything, Bitcoins itself may qualify as that sort of "strong encryption", as the makers of the PGP algorithm found out the hard way.

I wish that you could freely talk about ideas, but unfortunately law enforcement bullies tend to take a different view of the concept for some strange reason.  Freedom of speech is unfortunately a "right" that is sometimes ignored.

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December 06, 2010, 11:15:28 PM
 #40

Since we are on the subject of cryptography, any sort of "strong" cryptography is illegal to "export" from America due to restrictions placed upon it by ITAR regulations.  If anything, Bitcoins itself may qualify as that sort of "strong encryption", as the makers of the PGP algorithm found out the hard way.

No, because bitcoin doesn't actually employ encryption of data, but strong digital hashing/signing of data.  The distinction is important, even if it might be difficult to show that in a court of lawyers who don't have any background in higher mathmatics.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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