How long can BTC-E Stay in Business as a black market company?

[lazydna]

Now that Liberty Reserve is going to be prosecuted I think the OP question is now more relevant then ever.

Users who think that just because the company isn't in the United States doesn't mean the United States can't get you. They can, and they will. They got these guys and none of them were in the US, nor was the company in the US. If BTC-E is indeed operating without any licenses or outside of any regulations (they could be above board, but who knows) Users of BTC-E are being silly if they think that they are safe from the US government.

The lesson should be that they can get you anywhere. And they will.

Even if btce gets shut down, the most that will happen is an inconvenience, the money will be returned to account holders because nobody will be able to prove they came from an illegitimate source. Another exchange will take its place.

[crazy_rabbit]

Now that Liberty Reserve is going to be prosecuted I think the OP question is now more relevant then ever.

Users who think that just because the company isn't in the United States doesn't mean the United States can't get you. They can, and they will. They got these guys and none of them were in the US, nor was the company in the US. If BTC-E is indeed operating without any licenses or outside of any regulations (they could be above board, but who knows) Users of BTC-E are being silly if they think that they are safe from the US government.

The lesson should be that they can get you anywhere. And they will.

Even if btce gets shut down, the most that will happen is an inconvenience, the money will be returned to account holders because nobody will be able to prove they came from an illegitimate source. Another exchange will take its place.

You're assuming quite a lot in that one. The 'inconvenience' could last years as a trial dragged through the legal system. Liquidators might return only USD selling off any coins at any rate without consideration.

You're also assuming BTC-E keeps meticulous records. If they don't- your money might looks like anyone else's and the burden of proof could be on the user to prove a) where the funds came from b)their identities. Look at Bitcoinica, Bitfloor, the old tradehill, Intersango, those funds are stuck indefinitely. With Bitcoinica Mt.Gox actually still has all the money, but the refuse to release it. What are you going to? Wait years for a resolution or until you forgot you ever owned it in the first place.

Not to mention, users could be targeted themselves.

[lazydna]

Now that Liberty Reserve is going to be prosecuted I think the OP question is now more relevant then ever.

Users who think that just because the company isn't in the United States doesn't mean the United States can't get you. They can, and they will. They got these guys and none of them were in the US, nor was the company in the US. If BTC-E is indeed operating without any licenses or outside of any regulations (they could be above board, but who knows) Users of BTC-E are being silly if they think that they are safe from the US government.

The lesson should be that they can get you anywhere. And they will.

Even if btce gets shut down, the most that will happen is an inconvenience, the money will be returned to account holders because nobody will be able to prove they came from an illegitimate source. Another exchange will take its place.

You're assuming quite a lot in that one. The 'inconvenience' could last years as a trial dragged through the legal system. Liquidators might return only USD selling off any coins at any rate without consideration.

You're also assuming BTC-E keeps meticulous records. If they don't- your money might looks like anyone else's and the burden of proof could be on the user to prove a) where the funds came from b)their identities. Look at Bitcoinica, Bitfloor, the old tradehill, Intersango, those funds are stuck indefinitely. With Bitcoinica Mt.Gox actually still has all the money, but the refuse to release it. What are you going to? Wait years for a resolution or until you forgot you ever owned it in the first place.

Not to mention, users could be targeted themselves.

I can tell u have a hate on for these type of services but your are most certainly fear mongering now.
No users, unless specifically targeted for illegal activities would be prosecuted and I'm sure a vast majority of people using btce are legitimate small time traders and miners. With cryptos the block chain would store all address of funds sent to btce so this could easily be used to return cryptos to there senders. The fiat cash would be a little more tricky but it would be up to the authorities to prove u committed a crime before seizure. Freezing btce funds is just that, frozen, not expropriated.

[ondratra]

Bulgaria is under "friendly wings" of Russia lol this sounds very funny. But what i mean - US don't have influence on this country as it has on EU, etc. This region is more Russia domain where it comes to superstate territories.

Anyway there wasn't even described reasons for freezing Mt.Gox accounts? Or have I missed explaining of that?

[crazy_rabbit]

Now that Liberty Reserve is going to be prosecuted I think the OP question is now more relevant then ever.

Users who think that just because the company isn't in the United States doesn't mean the United States can't get you. They can, and they will. They got these guys and none of them were in the US, nor was the company in the US. If BTC-E is indeed operating without any licenses or outside of any regulations (they could be above board, but who knows) Users of BTC-E are being silly if they think that they are safe from the US government.

The lesson should be that they can get you anywhere. And they will.

Even if btce gets shut down, the most that will happen is an inconvenience, the money will be returned to account holders because nobody will be able to prove they came from an illegitimate source. Another exchange will take its place.

You're assuming quite a lot in that one. The 'inconvenience' could last years as a trial dragged through the legal system. Liquidators might return only USD selling off any coins at any rate without consideration.

You're also assuming BTC-E keeps meticulous records. If they don't- your money might looks like anyone else's and the burden of proof could be on the user to prove a) where the funds came from b)their identities. Look at Bitcoinica, Bitfloor, the old tradehill, Intersango, those funds are stuck indefinitely. With Bitcoinica Mt.Gox actually still has all the money, but the refuse to release it. What are you going to? Wait years for a resolution or until you forgot you ever owned it in the first place.

Not to mention, users could be targeted themselves.

I can tell u have a hate on for these type of services but your are most certainly fear mongering now.

Oh you can tell? My liberal use of provocative questions and legitimate concerns? Huge tip off. :-)

No users, unless specifically targeted for illegal activities would be prosecuted and I'm sure a vast majority of people using btce are legitimate small time traders and miners.

That depends. Are US citizens using BTC-E declaring their earnings on their capital tax gains on their tax returns?  That's a pretty quick way to turn a regular honest 'small time' trader into a criminal pretty quickly. It's not a question about whether you're a bad person out to do evil, it's question of how many lambs the government wants on an alter. They want you, they will find a way to get you.

With cryptos the block chain would store all address of funds sent to btce so this could easily be used to return cryptos to there senders. The fiat cash would be a little more tricky but it would be up to the authorities to prove u committed a crime before seizure. Freezing btce funds is just that, frozen, not expropriated.

Once again, I'd say look at the case of Bitcoinica- they are in liquidation yet the funds are still frozen. Indefinitely at this point.
I'm not saying the funds would be expropriated, but I am saying that frozen funds might take an extremely long time to get back. Surely you don't think the government would return funds without first asking everyones ID? Not to mention your blockchain example is flawed. The funds come in on the blockchain- yes. But what happens to them inside of the exchange is up to BTC-E. That would depend on BTC-E's internal record keeping and I assume any investigation into the recent 'hacks'.

Critical thinking isn't fear mongering.

EDIT: Sorry my quotes up there are a mess.

[crazy_rabbit]

Bulgaria is under "friendly wings" of Russia lol this sounds very funny. But what i mean - US don't have influence on this country as it has on EU, etc. This region is more Russia domain where it comes to superstate territories.

Anyway there wasn't even described reasons for freezing Mt.Gox accounts? Or have I missed explaining of that?

MtGox supposedly mislead the bank when it signed up for their account. However that's debatable as they said they weren't a currency exchange when they are. Although you can argue they weren't at the time.

[TheKoziTwo]

Critical thinking isn't fear mongering.

In fact, you even have proof: e-gold. They where shut down in 2008 and only now people are able to get some of their money back (no idea how many %) if they provide identification. Mind you, this was a company located in US, it could be worse for a company located outside of US.

[digitalindustry]

Bulgaria is under "friendly wings" of Russia lol this sounds very funny. But what i mean - US don't have influence on this country as it has on EU, etc. This region is more Russia domain where it comes to superstate territories.

Anyway there wasn't even described reasons for freezing Mt.Gox accounts? Or have I missed explaining of that?

+1

Maybe Crazy Rabbit is hoping some of that good ol American "Freedom" can touch BTC-e and stop them trading all those sCrypt (and future evolutions) currencies .

you know the saying.... "hope in one hand ..........."

perhaps the IRS could have a look at it Rabbit ? - You know , the Tea party , then BTC-e  , where does the fun end !?

: D

in USSA - exchange trades you !

[Hazard]

BTCe is actually located somewhere in China I believe. They're more in reach of the US gov than some might think.

[digitalindustry]

BTCe is actually located somewhere in China I believe. They're more in reach of the US gov than some might think.

got a question for you :

When you look in the mirror sometimes do you say to yourself;

"I can actually recall the moment I stopped believing in freedom.”

[CoinHoarder]

Noobs ITT are in denial.

It is clear to me BTC-e is in violation of FINcen. If the US government wants to shut them down, they will.

Again, IMO its not a matter of IF, but WHEN. And no they are not exempt from US laws because of they live in a different country, they still serve american customers and therefore are subject to US laws.

[digitalindustry]

BTCe is actually located somewhere in China I believe. They're more in reach of the US gov than some might think.

got a question for you :

When you look in the mirror sometimes do you say to yourself;

"I can actually recall the moment I stopped believing in freedom.”

[CoinHoarder]

Digital industry, stop being silly.

Just because someone is privy to FINcen, and possible consequences of not following US laws, it does not mean they don't believe in freedom. It means they are well educated on the subject.

[digitalindustry]

Digital industry, stop being silly.

Just because someone is privy to FINcen, and possible consequences of not following US laws, it does not mean they don't believe in freedom. It means they are well educated on the subject.

um.... you are advocating closing down an exchange for a decentralized currency in a different nation .

on a forum called "Bitcointalk.org" while supposedly supporting Bitcoin.






**
I’m just going to leave that there , and let that digest.

[smilez]

So are they in Bulgaria or Russia?

[com911]

Anyway https://crypto-trade.com/ is not worse than btc-e, maybe even better, but still low volumes.

[CoinHoarder]

Digital industry, stop being silly.

Just because someone is privy to FINcen, and possible consequences of not following US laws, it does not mean they don't believe in freedom. It means they are well educated on the subject.

um.... you are advocating closing down an exchange for a decentralized currency in a different nation .

on a forum called "Bitcointalk.org" while supposedly supporting Bitcoin.






**
I’m just going to leave that there , and let that digest.

I am not advocating anything you idiot, stop putting words in my mouth. I hate FINcen just as much as anybody, but it is a reality and it is here to stay. There is nothing we can do about it short of lobbying for a change in government policy, which if you know anything about American politics, it is doubtful that anything can be done, the US government wants their cut.

[digitalindustry]

further more the market is so liquid that it will basically self regulate - if an exchange goes full retard, everyone will either cut their holding or stop trading there .

the only reason “financial” markets need regulating is because they are not markets – they are monopolies.  Regulation is an attempt to stop them from just destroying everything and wrecking the economy .

at best it spreads out the hurt a little.

[digitalindustry]

..... it is doubtful that anything can be done, the US government wants their cut.

 if all the US government wanted was its cut there would be absolutely no problem in the world.

[SolidSnke]

correct me if i am wrong, but what if you only trade crptyo-currencies.. do you need to still reg with the us govt through fincen thing.

I figured that was only if you messed with fiat type money.

Also look at the torrent scene.. everytime they close one.. ten open.. kinda a losing battle for the govt.