TradeFortress is a scammer.

[arsenische]

Oh, and see Deprived response for why Ripple is actually flawed in how liquidity providers work.

I do really see a problem now. Probably it is not a good idea to exchange IOUs automatically. It is not only the problem of trust, but the problem of different issuer's policies too. It can't be solved with a simple numeric field, there should be some way to attach a contract to the IOU, so that when one grants trust, s/he could accept the terms. But wait... Looks like there are contracts in Ripple: https://ripple.com/wiki/Contracts .

TradeFortress, what did you do to issue IOUs? I just don't know how it is done in Ripple.. Did you have to create and sign a contract?

[🏰 TradeFortress 🏰]

I clicked on "Send Money", entered an ripple address, typed [1 to 100] BTC, and clicked on send.

[arsenische]

I clicked on "Send Money", entered an ripple address, typed [1 to 100] BTC, and clicked on send.

So if someone trusts me for some currency, I can just use default client and send him or her that currency without having it on my account?

[Deprived]

Oh, and see Deprived response for why Ripple is actually flawed in how liquidity providers work.

I do really see a problem now. Probably it is not a good idea to exchange IOUs automatically. It is not only the problem of trust, but the problem of different issuer's policies too. It can't be solved with a simple numeric field, there should be some way to attach a contract to the IOU, so that when one grants trust, s/he could accept the terms. But wait... Looks like there are contracts in Ripple: https://ripple.com/wiki/Contracts .

TradeFortress, what did you do to issue IOUs? I just don't know how it is done in Ripple.. Did you have to create and sign a contract?

You just issue them - no contracts, no need to have any BTC, no need to be owed anythig yourself.  Only two requirements to issue ANY amount of debt:

1.  You have some XRPs
2.  The person you're issuing to has unused trust towards you at least equal to the amount of debt you're creating.

Make an alt account, trust your main account for a billion BTC and you can send a billion BTC to it.  That simple.  And if someone else trusts you AND a gateway then those 1 billion BTC can be exchanged for ones issued by the gateway (up to the lower of their trust to you and their trust to the gateway).  As far as ripple is concerned they're all just BTC with equal value (to anyone who trusts both issuers).

[🏰 TradeFortress 🏰]

Correct. You should thank me for the social experiment, because now you know how Ripple is broken.

[Deprived]

I clicked on "Send Money", entered an ripple address, typed [1 to 100] BTC, and clicked on send.

So if someone trusts me for some currency, I can just use default client and send him or her that currency without having it on my account?

Yes.

You CAN'T have it on your account - all you can have in your account are XRPs and IOUs.

[arsenische]

Correct. You should thank me for the social experiment, because now you know how Ripple is broken.

I will tip you when I receive my 0.06 btc from the auction, lol

Edit: if you give me your bitcoin address

[ervalvola]

 But seriously - anyone dumb enough to do that DESERVES to suffer loss as an example to the rest of the community.

That's the point. Tricking the dumbs and make them losing money.

[🏰 TradeFortress 🏰]

Correct. You should thank me for the social experiment, because now you know how Ripple is broken.

I will tip you when I receive my 0.06 btc from the auction, lol

Edit: if you give me your bitcoin address

I only take Ripple IOUs

If you'd like to tip, my address is in my sig (1GLadosEkeAsLReqS3yQ51E1R3wVtbJCDF)

[arsenische]

I clicked on "Send Money", entered an ripple address, typed [1 to 100] BTC, and clicked on send.

So if someone trusts me for some currency, I can just use default client and send him or her that currency without having it on my account?

Yes.

You CAN'T have it on your account - all you can have in your account are XRPs and IOUs.

Thanks for clarification. I knew I can have only XRP and IOUs in Ripple. But for some reason I assumed I have to issue IOUs (i. e. to have my own IOUs in my account) before sending them to anybody.

[ervalvola]

Some simple questions for TradeFortress which i wish he will answer.
Let's stay on basic topics.

You offered 1 BTC Iou on Ripple through that thread.

1) Did you warn people who trusted you that you weren't able to repay that "I owe you" with real bitcoins?
    
2) You encouraged people to withdraw those IOUs in a gateway?

3) Did you know that such a withdraw could have (and probably did) resulted in financial loss (even huge one) to another user who naively trusted you?

4) That Bitcoin you withdrawed to Bitstamp, was previously owned by you?

5) Why did you choose to post that thread in the newbye section?

6) Why the thread was self-moderated?

[🏰 TradeFortress 🏰]

Most of the questions you can answer yourself, and the others are pointless, but 4) to bitstamp transactions > 0.01 were not mine.

[ervalvola]

I'm glad to read from you in person that at least you stole 0.01 BTC.

Just confirm if i'm right:

1) Did you warn people who trusted you that you weren't able to repay that "I owe you" with real bitcoins?
    NO

2) You encouraged people to withdraw those IOUs in a gateway?
    YES

3) Did you know that such a withdraw could have (and probably did) resulted in financial loss (even huge one) to another user who naively trusted you?
    YES
    [if not, you hadn't understand ripple and you weren't able to criticize it]

4) That Bitcoin you withdrawed to Bitstamp, was previously owned by you?
   NO, as you said

Sounds like an admission. Just to clarify: point (3) states that you've allowed the guys who understand the mechanism to steal money to the gullible.
I'd like to hear from you the answer of the last 2 questions:

5) Why did you choose to post that thread in the newbye section?

6) Why the thread was self-moderated?

MAy i add:

7) Do you are conscious that it could have ended with people losing much much more bitcoins?

8 ) Given that only 1.01 bitcoins were stolen, you consider what you call an "experiment", and i define a scam, succesfully?

[oakpacific]

Since many here talked like they have never signed a contract in their life, I decide to chime in with some common sense.

The fact is that even if the mods want to do something to TF(like, giving him a scammer tag), they could not, for exactly the same reason why an IOU is not enforceable legally: an IOU does not specify repayment terms such as the time of repayment. Without the super important set time, TF can always claim something like:"Yeah, I do want to pay back, but I never said when I will pay back, and I actually meant a thousand years later." It may sound ridiculous but if you use your brain, to say a thousand years here is not different from saying one month or one year, the mods can not give him a scammer tag because there is no condition upon which they can judge if he indeed defaults. Unlike MNW's case, where the condition is "if pirateat40 defaults", which he did, or any other unpaid loan for which a payback date was specified in the terms.

A minor point is that TF wrote in the post title that he will give away a "Ripple BTC", rather than a "real BTC", although he was actually a bit ambiguous with that.

[🏰 TradeFortress 🏰]

Wtf? No, I have not stole anyone's 0.01 or 1 or whatever (excluding my testing ones which are my own fucking coins)

I said that transactions > 0.01 were not mine, that doesn't mean *my* transactions were not involving my accounts / coins. Some of my testing txes were done in the account you know, some on my other accounts, but I have not stole anyone's coins.

It's pointless to reply further because you don't know how to read.

[ervalvola]

@oakpacific:
i'm in complete agreement with you. The scam doesn't consist in his denial to repay the IOUs, althought, as you said, he was ambiguos on purpose.

The scam is done by tricking people who don't understand how ripple works to give him trust; this is exploitable from others (and maybe himself) to change reliable ious (as bitstamp's ones) with his worthless ious. Say, to steal bitcoins to the gullible.

We should emphasize that the gullible ones are not the only victims. Also people who know TF, or see his status as a member of this forum, can't imagine that he would have put them in the condition of lose real bitcoins, instead of receiving a gift. Betrayed trust, scam... as you want.
Watch the denunciation posts and how many people are thanking me and other guys for the explanation.


I've not lost faith: TF, would you answer the last 4 questions?

[ervalvola]

4) That Bitcoin you withdrawed to Bitstamp, was previously owned by you?

Most of the questions you can answer yourself, and the others are pointless, but 4) to bitstamp transactions > 0.01 were not mine.

Try to be consistent.

If you now states that those 0.01 bitcoin was "your fucking bitcoins" you can please give us the ripple address from wich they came and prove that it is yours?

But please, most important are the last questions.

[oakpacific]

@oakpacific:
i'm in complete agreement with you. The scam doesn't consist in his denial to repay the IOUs, althought, as you said, he was ambiguos on purpose.

The scam is done by tricking people who don't understand how ripple works to give him trust; this is exploitable from others (and maybe himself) to change reliable ious (as bitstamp's ones) with his worthless ious. Say, to steal bitcoins to the gullible.

We should emphasize that the gullible ones are not the only victims. Also people who know TF, or see his status as a member of this forum, can't imagine that he would have put them in the condition of lose real bitcoins, instead of receiving a gift. Betrayed trust, scam... as you want.
Watch the denunciation posts and how many people are thanking me and other guys for the explanation.


I've not lost faith: TF, would you answer the last 4 questions?

The problem is not what you think scamming is, it's what the mods think. As long as they are consistent(their standard obviously includes "breach of enforceable terms"), they do not apply a double standard and are faultless. In fact, if they apply a scammer tag to TF now, they could be in doubt for using double standard.

[ervalvola]

I'm interested also in what YOU think


I think that is very bad  for bitcoin itself if someone can exploit his reputation as user of this forum to organize a scam letting people to steal other's bitcoins, whatever are his intentions.

[Deprived]

1) Did you warn people who trusted you that you weren't able to repay that "I owe you" with real bitcoins?

Your very first question is where you're going wrong.

"Repay" what?  What did they pay him that needs to be repaid?

The whole point of what he did is to show that ripple BTC ious are worth nothing - and so he can give them away for free.  If someone wants him to "repay" the NOTHING they paid for the IOUs in the first place then I'm sure he will.

If you mean he wasn't able to redeem the IOUs then the you're also wrong - for at least two reasons:

1.  He COULD pay off all the IOUs with 1 real BTC if he wanted to - he HAS enough funds.  So your wording is wrong anyway.
2   What was the agreed means of repayment and the time at which it was to be made?  There isn't any - so debating whether he can (or will) do something that isn't defined or agreed is meaningless.

You're confusing a worthless IOU with a contractual obligation to repay a debt.  Ripple allows issuing both of those types of paper - and treats them the same (and allows them to be swapped for one another) - which is the issue being highlighted.

I'm tempted to offer to pay off his debt to close this matter - obviously I'd pay it off with ripple IOUs