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Author Topic: TradeFortress is a scammer.  (Read 14215 times)
arsenische
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May 17, 2013, 03:23:43 PM
 #61

There are very few TradeFortressRippleBitcoinIOUcoins out there - they may actually be worth more than 1btc - they may become collectors items in the future.

Yep, they are scarce so far, but you can buy few. Or probably TradeFortress would send them for free if you ask him.


Regarding the flaw of Ripple... This is quite discussible. IMHO it is not the system flawed, it is trust to this particular issuer flawed.

The issuer of IOUs knows what IOU means and what BTC means and what BTC IOU means... Only the ones that trusted that issuer could loose anything. So is it a Ripple scam, or the issuer, who abused the trust?

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May 17, 2013, 03:34:38 PM
 #62

There are very few TradeFortressRippleBitcoinIOUcoins out there - they may actually be worth more than 1btc - they may become collectors items in the future.

Yep, they are scarce so far, but you can buy few. Or probably TradeFortress would send them for free if you ask him.


Regarding the flaw of Ripple... This is quite discussible. IMHO it is not the system flawed, it is trust to this particular issuer flawed.

The issuer of IOUs knows what IOU means and what BTC means and what BTC IOU means... Only the ones that trusted that issuer could loose anything. So is it a Ripple scam, or the issuer, who abused the trust?

What a salesman! - I've put in a bid.
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May 17, 2013, 03:38:51 PM
 #63

I've opened up an issue in Github so that the client can be more explicit:

Second trust line for the same currency should produce a warning dialog (github.com)

Raoul Duke
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May 17, 2013, 03:47:34 PM
 #64

And now you all experienced first hand(again) how bad a debt based currency is.

I can only LOL.

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May 17, 2013, 03:52:03 PM
Last edit: May 17, 2013, 04:21:27 PM by mmeijeri
 #65

No, it shows how stupid it is to trust strangers in general and TF in particular.

But the IOU system itself is great, because it allows for P2P cash payments, i.e. electronic long distance transactions that are netted and then settled in cash with your trusted associates. This is exactly the sort of thing that will allow BTC <-> fiat exchanges to continue even if governments are unwise enough to try to suppress it.

ROI is not a verb, the term you're looking for is 'to break even'.
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May 17, 2013, 03:55:20 PM
 #66

premise: if you give 1 btc to a person, he or she can default on this loan
conclusion: ripple is scam
perfect logic  Tongue
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May 17, 2013, 04:09:19 PM
 #67

Pretty unethical what TF has done.

There was obviously ulterior motives at hand when that thread was made (The one you got scammed by).

Doubt you're going to achieve anything through this thread however. This isn't the first time he's dodged bullets as far as scam accusations go. Just google it lol
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May 17, 2013, 05:19:32 PM
 #68

Pretty unethical what TF has done.

There was obviously ulterior motives at hand when that thread was made (The one you got scammed by).

Doubt you're going to achieve anything through this thread however. This isn't the first time he's dodged bullets as far as scam accusations go. Just google it lol

I wasn't scammed, i've just wanted to warn others.

I've saw the thread in the morning, posted there to warn people but the post was deleted, and yesterday evening when i came back to home i saw the thread full of potentially scammed people.
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May 17, 2013, 06:00:30 PM
Last edit: May 18, 2013, 06:36:26 AM by Este Nuno
 #69

I don't understand what's going on here.

So far people are claiming this sequence of events:

1. TradeFortress posts thread in newbie section asking people to do something on ripple and that he will give them one ripple BTC.

1a. TradeFortress does not mention that people who follow his instructions could lose BTC.

2. People follow TradeFortresses instructions

3. At least one person ends up losing *actual* BTC because of TradeFortress.

4. This is completely acceptable.

Is this correct?
arsenische
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May 17, 2013, 06:01:51 PM
 #70

I don't understand what's going on here.

So far people are claiming this sequence of events:

1. TradeFortress posts thread in newbie section asking people to do something on ripple and that he will give them one ripple BTC.

2. TradeFortress does not mention that people who follow his instructions could lose BTC.

2. People follow TradeFortresses instructions

3. At least one person ends up losing *actual* BTC because of TradeFortress.

4. This is completely acceptable.

Is this correct?

Well.. They don't loose actual BTC.. they loose BTC IOUs from another issuer (Bitstamp) whom they trust too. And they don't really loose it.. They just get TradeFortress BTC IOUs instead.

The problem is that unlike Bitstamp (who is trustworthy) TradeFortress doesn't want to acknowledge that he has to pay his debts. So you shouldn't have trusted him. If you trusted him - you loose.

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May 17, 2013, 06:03:44 PM
 #71

...Is this correct?

Not exactly. It's more like this:

1. TradeFortress issues a cryptographically signed, digital promise to provide actual Bitcoins in the future when the promise is redeemed

2. TradeFortrees breaks his promise.
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May 17, 2013, 06:15:54 PM
 #72

For a scammer tag, the accused person needs to have promised to do something and then failed to deliver on the promise. TradeFortress never promised to pay anyone any bitcoins here. If you trust him to do something that he didn't promise, that's your problem.

An IOU is a promise to pay. TradeFortress has issued IOUs which are essentially promises. He did this using the Ripple system. All of his transactions are part of the ledger. But he hasn't let anyone redeem his promises into actual Bitcoins.

This is no different than someone coming to the forum and saying "I owe you XXX BTC and I promise to pay you in the future." Except that he did it using a cryptographically secure accounting system (called Ripple).

To make matters worse, he took advantage of people by using the forum to promise bitcoins to people in order to get them to extend trust to him in the Ripple system. Then he used that trust to loot their Bitstamp BTC IOUs, replacing them with his worthless "TradeFortress BTC IOUs" (promises to pay Bitcoins).

All of this information is right there in the Ripple ledger. His Ripple address is rH3bZsvVUhzugvcYuJVoSYCEMHkfK6wHNv and you can see his transaction history here:

https://ripple.com/graph/#r3kmLJN5D28dHuH8vZNUZpMC43pEHpaocV

This shows that he has promised users 1,454.65 worth of Bitcoins. But when you try to redeem these promises, he does not pay the Bitcoins he promised.

If the SCAMMER tag applies to someone who makes a promise and then does not deliver, then TradeFortress is the poster child.
Maybe the problem is how few of us actually understand Ripple.

When I look at the linked page, it seems Ripple is telling me TF owes ~$900 and ~.04BTC. How do we see how much money TF took from others (not trust, but the redeemable BSTP BTC notes)?
dancupid
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May 17, 2013, 06:20:51 PM
 #73

...Is this correct?

Not exactly. It's more like this:

1. TradeFortress issues a cryptographically signed, digital promise to provide actual Bitcoins in the future when the promise is redeemed

2. TradeFortrees breaks his promise.


No, he just gave people Ripple TradeFortress bitcoins - they have a market value independent of bitcoins based on demand. People can trade these coins and establish a value based on market forces.
Since the word 'bitcoin' is made up it can mean anything - the word 'bitcoin' has no legal status.
If I say I'll give you $20 which $ am I referring to? Australian? Canadian? or my own made up $ currency?
arsenische
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May 17, 2013, 06:25:40 PM
 #74

Since the word 'bitcoin' is made up it can mean anything - the word 'bitcoin' has no legal status.
If I say I'll give you $20 which $ am I referring to? Australian? Canadian?


TradeFortress knows what BTC is. He knows that his IOU recipients understand BTC the same way.

mmeijeri
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May 17, 2013, 06:35:55 PM
 #75

I believe it's called selling someone a bill of goods.

ROI is not a verb, the term you're looking for is 'to break even'.
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May 17, 2013, 07:20:29 PM
 #76

As i see, this isn't his first accusation.

There's the thread: pretending to be a "social experiment" to expose some Ripple flaws, that is a good way to steal money from people who don't understand how Ripple works.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=206948.0


And there is some explanations:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=207535.0

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=207718.0


I didn't know about this section, so yesterday i only reported the problem to the moderators, who were offline, and opened a thread to warn people. Some damages could have been avoided....

If it's usefull i can argomentate better and also post here the countless messages deleted from his self-moderated topic.

Self-moderated topics in the newbye section shouldn't be allowed, byt the way.

So you were one of the one's who blindly posted there address, then found out with was an experiment WHICH WAS CLEARLY OUTLINED IN HIS POST.

So now your butt is hurting so much you needed to make a post flinging blind(read as ignorant) accusations?

Pls leave.

Srs.
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May 17, 2013, 08:13:56 PM
Last edit: May 17, 2013, 08:45:11 PM by bitaccumulation
 #77

TradeFortress has said that he is sending BTC to your Ripple account.  Not that he is sending Ripple BTC. This is a PROMISE to pay real BTC.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=206948.msg2175378#msg2175378
In this post he writes: "Over 177 BTC has being sent."

He didn't say "177 non-redeemable ripple-fake-btc sent"  He said he sent 177 BTC.

He said he's giving away 1 BTC on Ripple.   In order to do that, he is giving people an IOU for a BTC (a PROMISE to pay you 1 BTC)  that can be redeemed by you giving him back the IOU.  He knows this, knows he will not redeem any of his IOUs (won't fulfill his PROMISE to pay you the BTC) and is using the trust he is asking people to give him to steal BTC IOU's issued by legitimate providers that will redeem their receipts for real BTC.   It's a scam, he's running the scam and he's a scumbag for doing it.

There is no error in the Ripple system.  The system is based on IOUs- trust and receipts and promises to pay.  When you issue a BTC-ripple you are issuing a PROMISE TO PAY THE REAL THING.   He knows this and is tricking people, but that's not all he's doing.   He's tricking them and then stealing BTC-ripple IOUs from vendors that will fulfill their PROMISE to redeem the IOU's with REAL BITCOINS (unlike this douchebag).

That's not a "social experiment" - that's called fraud.   It doesn't matter that he's using a system that people don't understand in order to perpetrate the fraud.  He is using misrepresentation and most Bitcoiner's ignorance of how Ripple works in order to do defraud people (or enable them to be defrauded by others).

Ripple as a system isn't meant to send actual BTC, it's meant to send IOUs.  Douchebag TradeFortress knows this.  

The only currency in Ripple that is similar to BTC is XRP.

I see nothing that says that TradeFortress plans to redeem the IOUs he has issued and to make matters worse he sent the following private IM to me when I asked him about it:

Quote from:  "TradeFortress in PM"
One word: (actually two) - liquidity providers. I've being able to exchange my own IOUs for bit stamp ones because of a flawed feature in ripple.

So he is essentially saying he won't be redeeming the IOUs he's issued but will profit by exchanging his own for one's issued by providers that do redeem their IOU's.

This is a flat out scam.

He can pretend that he's finding a "flaw" in Ripple, but the entire Ripple payment system is based on Trust and by tricking new members into thinking that he is giving them a Bitcoin by having them trust him for 100 BTC in the Ripple interface he is not exposing a flaw in the system, but rather exposing himself as a scumbag scammer.

GPG Public Key 505ABB9D
ervalvola
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May 17, 2013, 08:21:16 PM
 #78

So you were one of the one's who blindly posted there address, then found out with was an experiment WHICH WAS CLEARLY OUTLINED IN HIS POST.

So now your butt is hurting so much you needed to make a post flinging blind(read as ignorant) accusations?

Pls leave.

Srs.

Thank you for the opportunity you gave me to explain to everybody that, of course, i wasn't in that list.
I just wanted to help newbyes whose had fallen in that scammy thread.




Because they have lost theyr BTC.
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May 17, 2013, 08:22:15 PM
Last edit: May 17, 2013, 08:34:16 PM by bitaccumulation
 #79

Ripple as a system isn't meant to send actual BTC, it's meant to send IOUs for actual BTC.  Douchebag TradeFortress knows this but doesn't plan to honor his IOU's but rather plans to exchange them for IOU's issued by others that will be honored as he clearly stated in his PM to me...

Quote from: TradeFortress in PM
One word: (actually two) - liquidity providers. I've being able to exchange my own IOUs for bit stamp ones because of a flawed feature in ripple.

The only currency in Ripple that is similar to BTC is XRP.  So pretending or implying to Newbies (where he posted) that sending BTC in Ripple is in any way similar to sending BTC through Bitcoin is not only disingenuous but it's sleazy.

TradeFortress is running a scam and it's sad that no moderator has the balls to do anything about it. EDIT: Or maybe the necessary brain power is not available amongst the moderators to understand that Ripple is not the same as Bitcoin and should not be used by a board member to steal ignorant newbie's BTC (which is why TradeFortress - aka - douchebag scammer - is posting on the Newbie board).

GPG Public Key 505ABB9D
ervalvola
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May 17, 2013, 08:32:19 PM
 #80

I don't understand what's going on here.

So far people are claiming this sequence of events:

1. TradeFortress posts thread in newbie section asking people to do something on ripple and that he will give them one ripple BTC.

2. TradeFortress does not mention that people who follow his instructions could lose BTC.

2. People follow TradeFortresses instructions

3. At least one person ends up losing *actual* BTC because of TradeFortress.

4. This is completely acceptable.

Is this correct?

Yes, this is the best explanation of this thing.
Actually he didn't promise to pay real bitcoins for the fake ones he gave inside Ripples, but he encouraged people to withdraw them to a gateway, knowingly that this implies someone else losing his reedemable BTCs. A sort of incitement to scam, made possible by his network.


No, he just gave people Ripple TradeFortress bitcoins - they have a market value independent of bitcoins based on demand. People can trade these coins and establish a value based on market forces.
Since the word 'bitcoin' is made up it can mean anything - the word 'bitcoin' has no legal status.
If I say I'll give you $20 which $ am I referring to? Australian? Canadian? or my own made up $ currency?

No it doesn't work in this way, 3 letter codes are different for real currencies, like USD for United States Dollar and AUD for Australian ones, if i remember well?
BTC means bitcoin inside Ripples, no matter from what gateway.

Btw, i appreciate very much this

I've opened up an issue in Github so that the client can be more explicit:

Second trust line for the same currency should produce a warning dialog (github.com)
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