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Author Topic: TradeFortress is a scammer.  (Read 14177 times)
ervalvola
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May 17, 2013, 02:11:06 AM
Last edit: May 17, 2013, 02:22:25 AM by ervalvola
 #1

As i see, this isn't his first accusation.

There's the thread: pretending to be a "social experiment" to expose some Ripple flaws, that is a good way to steal money from people who don't understand how Ripple works.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=206948.0


And there is some explanations:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=207535.0

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=207718.0


I didn't know about this section, so yesterday i only reported the problem to the moderators, who were offline, and opened a thread to warn people. Some damages could have been avoided....

If it's usefull i can argomentate better and also post here the countless messages deleted from his self-moderated topic.

Self-moderated topics in the newbye section shouldn't be allowed, byt the way.
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darkmule
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May 17, 2013, 02:17:55 AM
 #2

Please identify any transaction IDs on the blockchain that indicate transactions involving stolen (as opposed to completely imaginary) Bitcoin.

Hint:  there aren't any.
dchapes
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May 17, 2013, 02:22:46 AM
 #3

Please identify any transaction IDs on the blockchain that indicate transactions involving stolen (as opposed to completely imaginary) Bitcoin.
See https://ripple.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2552 which points out the bitcointalk.org users that are extracting BTC to Bitstamp.

IMO, Ripple questions are best asked (and answered) on the Ripple forum and/or StackExchange
darkmule
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May 17, 2013, 02:31:33 AM
 #4

Please identify any transaction IDs on the blockchain that indicate transactions involving stolen (as opposed to completely imaginary) Bitcoin.
See https://ripple.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2552 which points out the bitcointalk.org users that are extracting BTC to Bitstamp.

They only list one transaction, for BTC.0001.  So far, I'm not impressed.  I'm less impressed with the business model that allows this foolishness than I am the trolling that led to me having 5 imaginary BTC in this account I never intend on using.
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May 17, 2013, 02:31:43 AM
 #5

I think he prove a very big bug in the entire ripple system.

If anyone can make those imaginary BTC or any other currency in the ripple system, and he sends that fake currency to alot of persons..

User 1, Fake bitcoin (or any currency) owner try to buy something paying with bitcoins in ripple, starts a topic or something, and send the fake BTC first.
User 2, receives the fake BTC and send the item who was selling (LTC, ripples, USD,etc) then he realizes that he cant trade his BTC anywhere, because its fake and got scammed.

That's not a bug, but exactly how the ripple system is supposed to work.  It's not Fake or real bitcoin, it's merely an IOU for a bitcoin.

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▓▓▓▓▓  BIT-X.comvvvvvvvvvvvvvvi
→ CREATE ACCOUNT 
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TradeFortress 🏕
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May 17, 2013, 02:33:58 AM
 #6

I'm pointing out the flaws in Ripple. I've got numerous PMs from people who have only became aware that you cannot send BTCs in Ripple - it is impossible to send bitcoins, USD, AUD, anything in Ripple. You can only send IOU tokens.

Personally, I have not scammed anyone, because it is not that I am selling 1 BTC IOU on Ripple for 1 bitcoin. You may have your (bitstamp/etc) IOUs automatically exchanged for the IOUs I issued, but that is a flaw in the ripple system someone else is exploiting, not me.

Or, you know, don't use a broken system.

Ripple should actually deserve a scammer tag for claiming they are open source and decentralized to try and get bitcoiners to sign up for something that is currently as centralized as PayPal, as well as claiming you can "send money" - when you can't.
darkmule
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May 17, 2013, 02:35:46 AM
 #7

That's not a bug, but exactly how the ripple system is supposed to work.  It's not Fake or real bitcoin, it's merely an IOU for a bitcoin.

If that's how it's supposed to work, then it's crap.
ervalvola
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May 17, 2013, 02:37:05 AM
 #8

@darkmule: It's too late for my insomnia. Tomorrow i'll continue here.

By the way dchapes has answered yet, partially.

@others: it's an interesting matter, without doubts, but let's try to be on topic. This isn't a discussion about how ripple works. And if i want to demonstrate that there is a bug in a software, i don't do that by putting people who trust me in the condition of losing lots of money. REAL bitcoins...

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May 17, 2013, 02:44:30 AM
 #9

I agree, we shouldn't change this thread to discussion about the Ripple system (there's already a lot of threads about that).

"And if i want to demonstrate that there is a bug in a software, i don't do that by putting people who trust me in the condition of losing lots of money. REAL bitcoins..."

THERE ARE NO REAL BITCOINS ON RIPPLE. What part of this don't you understand? People never lost real bitcoins in Ripple, they never had any in the first place. They may have had different kinds of IOUs exchanged, but they did not lose any real bitcoins. It's another flaw with Ripple - all IOUs are not the same.

Either way, on behalf of RippleScam.org, thank you for bringing more awareness to the flaws of ripple. It's exactly what we need to prevent a centralized currency from invading decentralized money. You'll thank the movement later unless you want to sit on what remains of bitcointalk in year 2020, complaining about gateways freezing accounts, charging $30 [2013 dollar] transfer fees, and wondering when the source code for Ripple will ever be released.
ervalvola
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May 17, 2013, 02:47:11 AM
 #10

Personally, I have not scammed anyone, because it is not that I am selling 1 BTC IOU on Ripple for 1 bitcoin. You may have your (bitstamp/etc) IOUs automatically exchanged for the IOUs I issued, but that is a flaw in the ripple system someone else is exploiting, not me.

Quote from: TradeFortress
Please note that you must exchange your bitcoins with an liquidity provider (Ripple does this automatically, when paths are calculated) in order to withdraw them from a gateway.

You have encouraged people to withdraw those fake bitcoins, aware that someone else would have lost his trustworthy IOUS from bitstamp, id est his real bitcoin, beacuse of you.

You cannot prove that you were not in agreement with people who actually stolen the money, or that you didn't steal.

I'm not in love with Ripple, i would have appreciated a discussion or a rescueless experiment; scamming is just scamming.

theymos
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May 17, 2013, 02:50:00 AM
 #11

For a scammer tag, the accused person needs to have promised to do something and then failed to deliver on the promise. TradeFortress never promised to pay anyone any bitcoins here. If you trust him to do something that he didn't promise, that's your problem.

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ervalvola
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May 17, 2013, 02:52:15 AM
 #12

THERE ARE NO REAL BITCOINS ON RIPPLE. What part of this don't you understand? People never lost real bitcoins in Ripple, they never had any in the first place. They may have had different kinds of IOUs exchanged, but they did not lose any real bitcoins. It's another flaw with Ripple - all IOUs are not the same.

So, 2 ways: you are stupid or you think people who read is stupid.

Real bitcoins were transferred between account in a gateway.

But, if you hate IOUS at all, i must think that you NEVER TRADED ON AN EXCHANGE, right?
Because when you deposit you bitcoins on MtGox, for example, that magic number that appears near to the label "bitcoin"... would you mean what it is? It's an IOU, sweety.

You haven't even a bank account i suppose... i suppose you live on the moon.
dchapes
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May 17, 2013, 02:53:25 AM
 #13

I think he prove a very big error in the entire ripple system.
No he hasn't.
It's not fake BTC.

He conned a bunch of newbies into trusting him for 100 BTC with the promise of "1 free Ripple BTC". He gave a pretty picture so that the newbies without a clue could follow his misguided instructions.

Those users have placed a trust in TradeFortress that he is good for 100 BTC when of course he has absolutly no intention of doing so. His goal is to let others use Ripples liquidity features to take the gateway BTC of any newb that has any. One person had 1 BTC/Bitstamp taken out of his account in exchange for 1 BTC/TradeFortress (because that's what TradeFortress knowingly conned the nebie into telling Ripple it was okay to do).

IMO, Ripple questions are best asked (and answered) on the Ripple forum and/or StackExchange
dchapes
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May 17, 2013, 02:54:42 AM
 #14

They only list one transaction, for BTC.0001.  So far, I'm not impressed.
Read further. One person that put his misplaced trust in  TradeFortress is out 1 BTC from Bitstamp.

IMO, Ripple questions are best asked (and answered) on the Ripple forum and/or StackExchange
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May 17, 2013, 02:58:51 AM
 #15

*ahem*

What did we learn today, class?
TradeFortress 🏕
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May 17, 2013, 02:59:19 AM
 #16

> You cannot prove that you were not in agreement with people who actually stolen the money, or that you didn't steal.

You are a scammer, because you cannot prove you were not the guy that hacked Bitcoinica.

K, we are getting into discussions about Ripple now. I'll just say.. real bank accounts in real life do not automatically exchange your Commonwealth bank (or something) for your casual friend's IOU.

Quote
Read further. One person that put his misplaced trust in  TradeFortress is out 1 BTC from Bitstamp.
You give trust every time you want to receive payments in Ripple, no I didn't get 1 BTC, someone else did. Mt Gox isn't responsible if someone sends coins to Satoshi Dice, even if you argue "but they should have added warnings!".
ervalvola
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May 17, 2013, 03:00:15 AM
 #17

For a scammer tag, the accused person needs to have promised to do something and then failed to deliver on the promise. TradeFortress never promised to pay anyone any bitcoins here. If you trust him to do something that he didn't promise, that's your problem.

OK, if 3 topics and lots of people probably scammed aren't enough, i have to follow your argument:

from the first post in TradeFortress topic, everybody can read he encouraged people to withdraw HIS ious at a gateway. But this isn't possible, not every Bitcoin issued by TradeFortress is withdrawable at a gateway.



theymos
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May 17, 2013, 03:01:54 AM
 #18

Show me the agreement that TradeFortress violated.

I think we now have fake currency circulating in the ripple system.  Smiley

How many LTC per TradeFortressRippleCoin? Wink

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ervalvola
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May 17, 2013, 03:05:18 AM
 #19

> You cannot prove that you were not in agreement with people who actually stolen the money, or that you didn't steal.

You are a scammer, because you cannot prove you were not the guy that hacked Bitcoinica.

That's not an argument, you organized a fraudolent network based on lie.
Read further and answer the next question if you can.

@Other People: you can like or dislike Ripple, and i can agree or disagree, but that's not the point.
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May 17, 2013, 03:06:34 AM
 #20

For a scammer tag, the accused person needs to have promised to do something and then failed to deliver on the promise. TradeFortress never promised to pay anyone any bitcoins here. If you trust him to do something that he didn't promise, that's your problem.

Just facts: TradeFortress issued IOUs and sent them to users who trusted him. IOU means "I owe you". Thus he admitted that he owes to that people.

Question: If one owes to people who trust him, but is not going to pay them, then who is that person?

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