Devtome: Get Hundreds of Thousands of free Devcoins for writing

[markm]

Do you think your 5000 words are worth more than, say, 5000 lines of code by FellowTraveller that let us do finances for all the many sub-projects we are still hoping to be able to launch?

It does not matter how many more hours FellowTraveler does, he gets one share a month because he puts in ten hours a week or more on Open Transactions.

If you put in ten hours a week or more on a history of the world for devtome, arguably you deserve a share just like he does.

The point is the shares are rewards given to people who already are doing good useful work we want to reward even though they are not getting rewarded for doing so.

The intent was not to lure people into doing such work but, rather, to reward people who are going to do such work anyway even if it costs them their health life money or whatever it is costing them already to do it unrewarded just because it is what they do.

-MarkM-

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[MAbtc]

Authors should be a kind of developer, they develop free open source writings.

So, like other developers, whether they are developing free open source hardware or free open source software or whatever else, they should be getting similar pay, one would imagine.

We're playing with semantics here, though. What you're suggesting is that people ought to be paid equally for similar amounts of work -- I get that, and I generally agree.

However, I have to reiterate the importance at this time, IMO, of distributing coins outside of the hands of developers -- meaning coders, programmers. If there is ever going to be a real economy, it has to reach outside of this small technology-oriented niche.

Until there exists an economy, devtome is the single most important thing to devcoin, IMO.

[FinShaggy]

Normally the idea is to find the people who already do those things naturally for free just because those are things they are going to do anyway. So for example if it was discovered that there existed a contributor to devtome who puts in forty hours a month developing a history of the world on devtome, and having a history of the world on devtome seemed like a great idea, so that a person who all on their own without any pay or reward was putting that much work into doing it was an admirable kind of person spending their time freely developing such a useful thing, then that person might be nominated to go onto the devcoin recipients list, so that they receive a share of devcoins every month as long as they continue putting in that much work on projects that awesome.

That is for example why FellowTraveller, developer of Open Transactions, receives a share of devcoins every month. He works like crazy on Open Transactions, probably more than forty hours a month, it is crazy-useful awesome software, so he was placed in the list of people who receive a share of devcoins.

So it seems reasonable the same should apply to the wiki: if it turns out that some contributors to the wiki spend lots of hours month after month working on awesome stuff for the wiki, they too, like FellowTraveller, maybe deserve to receive a share of devcoins each month that they continue to do so...

-MarkM-

That would be cool. But not all struggling artists can work like that. I literally have family bitching at me, and no way to get a job (I have a warrant in Texas for marijuana, and am a known marijuana smoker in Colorado and after being unemployed for over a year no one wants to hire me. But that's fine, I would rather write... But I can't do it for free...)

And again. How do we get new people. This would work fine if people were just looking at Devtome and Devcoin for the heck of it, but most of them are looking to earn them.

[FinShaggy]

Do you think your 5000 words are worth more than, say, 5000 lines of code by FellowTraveller that let us do finances for all the many sub-projects we are still hoping to be able to launch?

-MarkM-

No, but it is sure as hell worth more than someone sitting in thought for an hour.

[MAbtc]

Do you think your 5000 words are worth more than, say, 5000 lines of code by FellowTraveller that let us do finances for all the many sub-projects we are still hoping to be able to launch?

-MarkM-

Perhaps not. You obviously place a higher value on code than writing. What I'm saying is -- a lot of people don't necessarily feel that way. And if devcoin is ever going to get anywhere, it needs to reach masses of people that don't know dick about coding.

[CoinHoarder]

I think you guys are highlighting the problem with Devtome. Too much emphasis is put on the quantity of words and/or images, and not enough emphasis on quality. No one is ever going to want to go to Devtome and read anything if it's just a bunch of people typing words for the sake of typing words. There needs to be some quality control in place. I do admit though, implementing a fair quality control system that doesn't piss off writers would be no easy task.

The coding/writing debate is pretty straightforward IMO. It takes a much more specialized skill to write code than to write a sentence. Also, there is a lot of thought and planning that must go into coding, when writing you can pretty much just spit out words on the paper and you don't necessarily have to put as much thought and planning into it as coding. Obviously, if a proper quality control system were in place, then this would be a non factor because it WOULD require proper thought and planning to write quality articles. However, as it is currently setup with hardly any quality control, I believe coding should be valued higher than writing. How much higher? Well, that's a whole 'nother debate.

[markm]

Do you think your 5000 words are worth more than, say, 5000 lines of code by FellowTraveller that let us do finances for all the many sub-projects we are still hoping to be able to launch?

Perhaps not. You obviously place a higher value on code than writing. What I'm saying is -- a lot of people don't necessarily feel that way. And if devcoin is ever going to get anywhere, it needs to reach masses of people that don't know dick about coding.

Right. So we should find people who spend forty hours a month or more developing free open source writing, and offer to put them on the devcoin recipients list.

Because their writing is free open source, we are free to put it on the wiki.

We need not even make them do the grunt work of pasting it to the wiki, In fact we need not even put it on the wiki at all really, that would be gravy for the devcoin project, the real point is to find those people who do excellent free open source work freely because that is what they do, and reward them by putting them on the devcoin recipients list.

The problem had been that if we searched the internet for each and every developer of each and every type of free open source stuff and put them all on the list, the number of coins each would get would be tiny so the coins would need to be worth a lot per coin in order for them to experience any real benefit from being on the list.

Thus, the strategy had arisen of trying first to focus on free open source things that can be caused to make money, and cause them to make money, and use that money to buy devcoins, so that devcoins will be worth something due to all that monetised free open source stuff constantly buying any that anyone wants to sell.

That is how devtome arose: the idea came up that if we put free open source writing on the web and put ads on the pages, the ads would earn money,  thus enabling us to buy devcoins from anyone who wanted to sell them...

So I guess I agree we should not pay by the word.

We should find free open source content we want to paste onto the wiki, paste it there, then if any of it turns out to have been created by someone who routinely, lifestyle, spends forty hours per month creating such content, nominate them for a place on the list of devcoin recipients.

-MarkM-

[FinShaggy]

Do you think your 5000 words are worth more than, say, 5000 lines of code by FellowTraveller that let us do finances for all the many sub-projects we are still hoping to be able to launch?

-MarkM-

Perhaps not. You obviously place a higher value on code than writing. What I'm saying is -- a lot of people don't necessarily feel that way. And if devcoin is ever going to get anywhere, it needs to reach masses of people that don't know dick about coding.

Writing is valuable, maybe not equal line by line, or "word" for word. But 50,000 words deserves to be paid like it matters, not just 12 shares.

[FinShaggy]

I think you guys are highlighting the problem with Devtome. Too much emphasis is put on the quantity of words and/or images, and not enough emphasis on quality. No one is ever going to want to go to Devtome and read anything if it's just a bunch of people typing words for the sake of typing words. There needs to be some quality control in place. I do admit though, implementing a fair quality control system that doesn't piss off writers would be no easy task.

The coding/writing debate is pretty straightforward IMO. It takes a much more specialized skill to write code than to write a sentence. Also, there is a lot of thought and planning that must go into coding, when writing you can pretty much just spit out words on the paper and you don't necessarily have to put as much thought and planning into it as coding. Obviously, if a proper quality control system were in place, then this would be a non factor because it WOULD require proper thought and planning to write quality articles. However, as it is currently setup with hardly any quality control, I believe coding should be valued higher than writing. How much higher? Well, that's a whole 'nother debate.

I buy books to write my books just like you buy books to learn to write code. There is no less thought put into it, the code is simply more valuable because of its application abilities. Words can be sold as books, Code can be sold as other things once you apply it.

And a better solution to quality control would be to tag articles that are better than others, maybe even make it where the better articles earn shares forever instead of one round if at all possible.

[FinShaggy]

I've literally gone through over 400 pages to write what I have written for this round. And I have books in the mail that most people wouldn't even look at unless they were forced by a professor to buy them.

[FinShaggy]

I've literally gone through over 400 pages to write what I have written for this round. And I have books in the mail that most people wouldn't even look at unless they were forced by a professor to buy them.

Just to give you an idea, here is a few (out of 36) books I literally have coming in the mail. I had them shipped to my mom's house, and she is bringing like 15 of them tomorrow:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0140449523/ref=oh_details_o01_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0802224040/ref=oh_details_o05_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0520248422/ref=oh_details_o07_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0198601654/ref=oh_details_o06_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0195046455/ref=oh_details_o04_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1405176008/ref=oh_details_o03_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

[markm]

The point of devcoin was that if for example we discovered that you are a person who writes free open source books, for free, as a lifestyle, you would be the kind of person devcoin was created to reward, and we would like to place you on the list of people who get a share of devcoins each round.

We would love devcoins to be worth so much that your one share of devcoins each round was worth enough to seriously reward you for your lifestyle dedication to publishing free open source books, but, for that to happen, we need to make devcoins be worth a lot. There is no point adding so many lifestyle devotees of free open source things to the list that they each are being rewarded with a satoshi or two worth of devcoins per round.

So if the free open source books that you naturally all on your own are devoted to writing can be caused to make money that can be used to buy devcoins, that would be awesome, and we wouldn't then have to feel like awarding someone a share of devcoins is a worthless award/reward.

So we first tried to focus on free open source things we could turn into moneymakers.

I don't know how this whole devtome authors mess happened, though I think part of why it is so horrible is the insane 80 shares maximum thing.

Doing ten hours per week (on your own unrelated things) or per month (on mission-critical things we need) OR MORE lets people get one share.

OR MORE is important. It does not matter that FellowTraveller puts in forty or more hours per week, it is unfortunate but devcoins are not worth enough for us to be able to afford to pay by the hour. All we can do - except for this whole devtome mess, it seems - is give a few of the most deserving developers of free open source things that we can find one share per round of devcoins.

If we discovered that Stephen King was spending ten hours OR MORE per week writing free open source Stephen King novels, we might well consider nominating him to receive a share of devcoins per round.

Even if he spent forty hours per week doing it, sorry, developers get one share right now, as devcoins are not worth enough yet that we can afford to pay more, as doing so would simply devalue the coins, so likely work out to the same number of bitcoins or dollars or whatever anyway.

-MarkM-

[FinShaggy]

The point of devcoin was that if for example we discovered that you are a person who writes free open source books, for free, as a lifestyle, you would be the kind of person devcoin was created to reward, and we would like to place you on the list of people who get a share of devcoins each round.

Well yeah, that is why I was chosen. I was posting books in the off topic section, and Jasinlee came and invited me.

But if you don't pay the writers, they cannot get better. My writing has improved 100x since I have gotten the 4 books I got for research (and I have 36 more coming) and my YouTube videos are at least 2x as good, because I can now include Xbox gameplay thanks to Devcoins. But that won't start earning good money for like 6 months to a year.

You have to support the work or it stays shitty... Or just dies.

[FinShaggy]

OR MORE is important. It does not matter that FellowTraveller puts in forty or more hours per week, it is unfortunate but devcoins are not worth enough for us to be able to afford to pay by the hour. All we can do - except for this whole devtome mess, it seems - is give a few of the most deserving developers of free open source things that we can find one share per round of devcoins.

-MarkM-

Then why not try making individual coding projects bounties? Reward that instead of per hour.

[markm]

That is what we do.

For example we found a project named Bitcoin, and found that there was someone who was spending lots and lots of time and energy and thought and coding and so on working on it, and added him to the list of people who get a share of devcoins.

We found a project named Open Transactions, that someone was spending huge amounts of time on, so we added him to the list.

And so on.

-MarkM-

[FinShaggy]

That is what we do.

For example we found a project named bitcoin, and found that there was someone who was spending lots and lots of time and energy and thought and coding and so on working on it, and added him to the list of people who get a share of devcoins.

We found a project named Open Transactions, that someone was spending huge amounts of time on, so we added him to the list.

And so on.

-MarkM-

Is their work being posted to a Dev website for everyone to see? If we made threads for their code it would get used right? People would follow links to code they can use, especially if it is super useful coding work.

Then they can earn shares for views as well. And maybe give them more shares?

[FinShaggy]

But if those people are just getting paid code simply for coding work they already do, I don't see the problem. I post my stuff to a dev website and then post links to the dev website other places.

If they are just coding for themselves, then why should they get more shares? I should get more shares because I am a blogger right? Or because I am member of various forums across the web where I post things similar to devtome?

I'm not really saying I deserve any more coins, I'm just saying that if they are not participating in Devcoin projects other than the fact that they are coding for free for other websites, then why should they get more shares?

[smeagol]

Normally the idea is to find the people who already do those things naturally for free just because those are things they are going to do anyway. So for example if it was discovered that there existed a contributor to devtome who puts in forty hours a month developing a history of the world on devtome, and having a history of the world on devtome seemed like a great idea, so that a person who all on their own without any pay or reward was putting that much work into doing it was an admirable kind of person spending their time freely developing such a useful thing, then that person might be nominated to go onto the devcoin recipients list, so that they receive a share of devcoins every month as long as they continue putting in that much work on projects that awesome.

That is for example why FellowTraveller, developer of Open Transactions, receives a share of devcoins every month. He works like crazy on Open Transactions, probably more than forty hours a month, it is crazy-useful awesome software, so he was placed in the list of people who receive a share of devcoins.

So it seems reasonable the same should apply to the wiki: if it turns out that some contributors to the wiki spend lots of hours month after month working on awesome stuff for the wiki, they too, like FellowTraveller, maybe deserve to receive a share of devcoins each month that they continue to do so...

-MarkM-

That would be cool. But not all struggling artists can work like that. I literally have family bitching at me, and no way to get a job (I have a warrant in Texas for marijuana, and am a known marijuana smoker in Colorado and after being unemployed for over a year no one wants to hire me. But that's fine, I would rather write... But I can't do it for free...)

And again. How do we get new people. This would work fine if people were just looking at Devtome and Devcoin for the heck of it, but most of them are looking to earn them.

Fin... you are unemployed?  Do you have a college degree?  I can help you get a job, maybe.

[smeagol]

I don't know how this whole devtome authors mess happened, though I think part of why it is so horrible is the insane 80 shares maximum thing.

Sorry for the double post...  I am too lazy to edit. 

Most writers just get 80 in one round from previous works and then burn out later.  I guess 35 shares maximum would be a reasonable alternative.

[FinShaggy]

Normally the idea is to find the people who already do those things naturally for free just because those are things they are going to do anyway. So for example if it was discovered that there existed a contributor to devtome who puts in forty hours a month developing a history of the world on devtome, and having a history of the world on devtome seemed like a great idea, so that a person who all on their own without any pay or reward was putting that much work into doing it was an admirable kind of person spending their time freely developing such a useful thing, then that person might be nominated to go onto the devcoin recipients list, so that they receive a share of devcoins every month as long as they continue putting in that much work on projects that awesome.

That is for example why FellowTraveller, developer of Open Transactions, receives a share of devcoins every month. He works like crazy on Open Transactions, probably more than forty hours a month, it is crazy-useful awesome software, so he was placed in the list of people who receive a share of devcoins.

So it seems reasonable the same should apply to the wiki: if it turns out that some contributors to the wiki spend lots of hours month after month working on awesome stuff for the wiki, they too, like FellowTraveller, maybe deserve to receive a share of devcoins each month that they continue to do so...

-MarkM-

That would be cool. But not all struggling artists can work like that. I literally have family bitching at me, and no way to get a job (I have a warrant in Texas for marijuana, and am a known marijuana smoker in Colorado and after being unemployed for over a year no one wants to hire me. But that's fine, I would rather write... But I can't do it for free...)

And again. How do we get new people. This would work fine if people were just looking at Devtome and Devcoin for the heck of it, but most of them are looking to earn them.

Fin... you are unemployed?  Do you have a college degree?  I can help you get a job, maybe.

Very unemployed. Nope, no degree. My parents put their money into fun and my sisters education and living style. I don't even have a credit score. I'm not saying it's bad, I'm saying it is non existent.