Theymos: What the fuck is up with BFL and TradeFortress?

[🏰 TradeFortress 🏰]

Actually, because losing $1100+ is probably not what you want to see happen, I've transferred your 10.15 Bitstamp BTCs.

Give me an address to send your 10.15 back, because right now if you check your Ripple wallet you shouldn't have any bitstamp IOUs

This is exactly what I wanted to see happen, and exactly what was supposed to happen.

I trusted you for 100 BTC. You have withdrawn 10.15 BTC to blockchain. You owe me 10.15 BTC. We have successfully demonstrated how ripple works.

You of course owe me 10.15 BTC, and you can pay me that back through ripple at any point, I'd prefer it in ripple, rather than blockchain.

Ripple just models real life, only trust people or entities you view as trustworthy. I decided to trust you, and I'm sure you'll want to keep your trust and reputation over the coming weeks and months.

Still unsure what your point is?

My point is that if someone else had done this, you would be at a loss of 10.15 BTC, and I have no obligation to redeem my 10.15 BTC because I had no intention of honoring it in the first place, and there are no terms for redemption.

...Is this correct?

Not exactly. It's more like this:

1. TradeFortress issues a cryptographically signed, digital promise to provide actual Bitcoins in the future when the promise is redeemed

2. TradeFortrees breaks his promise.

At what point has be broken his promise?

If you borrow 1 BTC from me without agreeing any terms of repayment are you a scammer IMMEDIATELY (as you haven't repaid it?) How about in a week's time?  Or a month?  A year?

An IOU can NOT be defaulted on (other than by the issuer stating that they default) unless a means/time-scale for settlement was agreed.

If you disgaree then answer this simple question:  if you receive 1 TF BTC on ripple at what date/time has be defaulted if he hasn't yet redeemed it?

If your claim is that ALL ripple BTC debts should be IMMEDIATELY redeemable for actual BTC then that has some very nasty logistical issues - not least of which being that if you borrow on ripple (i.e. issue an IOU in return for real BTC) you can't actually spend those BTC without being immediately a scammer as you can no longer redeem them on request.  If, on the other hand, your claim is NOT that all IOUs should be immediately redeemable on request then we're back to asking how/when is the agreed redemption of these TF IOUs?

That's ONE of the flaws this little experiment has addressed - that IOUs with no terms are inherently worthless as they can only ever be redeemed if the issuer of the IOUs voluntarily chooses to do so (there's no clearly defined point at which a 'default' can be declared).  Another flaw shown here (which I pointed out and asked about ages back - but it got ignored despite Ripple team answering easy questions in same thread) is that all IOUs are treated equally - just because I issue trust to A and B does NOT mean I value IOUs from them equally or am fine with IOUs from one being swapped to IOUs from the other without any input from myself.

[🏰 TradeFortress 🏰]

I know I'm quoting Deprived's posts a lot, but his posts really do illustrate the point:

For one thing, before we can distinguish between the two sample responses you give we need a defined point in time at which the IOU issuer is obliged to give a response at all (a settlement date).

IOUs (taken as meaning any acknowledgement of debt) don't necessarily EVER have to be redeemed.  For example perpetual bonds are never intended to be redeemed - yet are debt.

Thanks for your valuable arguments. You might be right and I think I understand now why theymos said IOU is not a binding contract. But now I feel totally confused. What is debt then, if it is doesn't ever have to be repaid?

Debt is something that you owe - a claim someone else has against you.  Not all debts are created with the intention of being repaid (e.g. loans that are made for tax reasons without either party to the loan having an intention of there ever being a repayment).  Perpetual bonds are another example of debt that will never be repaid (talking RL ones not the pretend mining ones on here).  The bond issuer borrows money that will never be repaid - paying interest (a dividend) on it regularly.  The only way to get your cash back is to sell it to someone else.

That's why debt/IOUs with no agreed terms is worthless.

Maybe an example will help - for the examples below the assumption to be made is that I WILL honour any commitments I made (in practice all debt should be discounted in value based on your confidence that I'd repay):

If I said I'd owe you 20 BTCs to be settled in a week in return for 10 BTCs from you now then (IF you had total trust in me) you could reasonably value those 20 ripple BTCs at similar value to 20 actual BTCs.

If I said I'd owe you 20 BTCs to be settled in 5 years in return for 10 BTCs from you now then (IF you had total trust in me) you would STILL have to value them at a lot less than 20 actual BTCs (as they'd generate no revenue in the meantime and were illiquid).

In ripple BTCs of each of the above scenarios are treated as being interchangeable (whether its 2 sets from same issuer or from 2 different issuers) - despite the fact they have very different actual value.

Now consider a third scenario (equivalent to perpetual bonds):

I say that if you give me 10 BTC now I'll owe you 10 BTC on ripple.  I will never repay those BTC but on the first of each month I'll send 0.01 BTC for each BTC owed to whoever currently holds them.  Again - to ripple those are just BTC - and swappable with anyone else's BTC (provided someone trusts both me and the other issuer).  These BTC may have more or less value than the other ones - depending on how people value 1% interest/month against liquidity.  But I'll never repay them - and am NOT a scammer for issuing them.

Now the final case.  I say if you give me 10 BTC now I'll owe you 20 BTC on ripple but will only ever repay them if I win the lottery.  What are those BTC worth?  Nearly nothing (even ignoring the fact that I don't play the lottery).

Do you see how the value of a debt/IOU is defined by the TERMS that apply to it - not by its face value?  But ripple treats them all based on face value.

TF's ones were pretty much explicitly worthless.  In the absence of terms the only way to reasonably assess value of something is to look at what consideration was given in return for them - and assume a similar value.  Nothing was given - so their value is gong to be around zero.

[webr3]

Actually, because losing $1100+ is probably not what you want to see happen, I've transferred your 10.15 Bitstamp BTCs.

Give me an address to send your 10.15 back, because right now if you check your Ripple wallet you shouldn't have any bitstamp IOUs

This is exactly what I wanted to see happen, and exactly what was supposed to happen.

I trusted you for 100 BTC. You have withdrawn 10.15 BTC to blockchain. You owe me 10.15 BTC. We have successfully demonstrated how ripple works.

You of course owe me 10.15 BTC, and you can pay me that back through ripple at any point, I'd prefer it in ripple, rather than blockchain.

Ripple just models real life, only trust people or entities you view as trustworthy. I decided to trust you, and I'm sure you'll want to keep your trust and reputation over the coming weeks and months.

Still unsure what your point is?

My point is that if someone else had done this, you would be at a loss of 10.15 BTC, and I have no obligation to redeem my 10.15 BTC because I had no intention of honoring it in the first place, and there are no terms for redemption.

I trusted you, specifically for 100 BTC. Every person you trust for BTC can access it, not those people who trust you.

You, personally, are either trustworthy or are not trustworthy, it is quite simple, you owe me 10.15 BTC to be paid back through ripple, I do not care if anybody else owes you BTC or not, this is your trustworthyness we're discussing.

So far, all you've done is take 10.15 BTC from me and say that you "had no intention of honoring it in the first place". That would be a scammer would it not?

[🏰 TradeFortress 🏰]

You do realize I only did it so someone else wouldn't have done it and you'd be at a loss of 10.15 BTC? I'll say it again, btc address and I'll withdraw that 10.15 from bitstamp to your address, or confirm with me and I'll send you the Bitstamp IOU back.

Trustworthy / non trustworthy are not binary unlike what the Ripple system declares. I'm sure there are people you trust more than others in your life, no?

I have not made a promise to honor any of my IOUs. Not all IOUs / debt are redeemable. Simple example: You will be laughed your way out of court if you sue someone for their debt, when you have no contract of any kind.

[webr3]

You do realize I only did it so someone else wouldn't have done it and you'd be at a loss of 10.15 BTC? I'll say it again, btc address and I'll withdraw that 10.15 from bitstamp to your address, or confirm with me and I'll send you the Bitstamp IOU back.

Trustworthy / non trustworthy are not binary unlike what the Ripple system declares. I'm sure there are people you trust more than others in your life, no?

I have not made a promise to honor any of my IOUs. Not all IOUs / debt are redeemable. Simple example: You will be laughed your way out of court if you sue someone for their debt, when you have no contract of any kind.

Send the bitstamp IOU back.

[🏰 TradeFortress 🏰]

Done.

I'd suggest removing the trust line unless you want to lose 10.15 BTC (or whatever you have now, after bitstamp fees).

[webr3]

Done.

I'd suggest removing the trust line unless you want to lose 10.15 BTC (or whatever you have now, after bitstamp fees).

Okay, why should I remove the trust line? Have you extend trust to people who are untrustworthy?

edit: I'm going out, I'll leave everything as it is for now, and will reply later.

[webr3]

You do realise that you've said to a lot of people that you owe them one bitcoin, and up to 10 people can make good that promise, every time they do, you owe me one more bitcoin, which I expect you to make good on, just as they did in the first place when you opened that thread.

One person already has, you owe me one more bitcoin. If you do not pay me back, then you are a scammer.

All I have done is facilitate your offer to the masses on bitcointalk, you promised them all one bitcoin for trusting you, now they can do it, and are. Everytime they do, you owe me 1 BTC. I can pump another 100 BTC in to that account if you like?

[🏰 TradeFortress 🏰]

I just sent you a ripple IOU for 50 BTC. Do I owe you bitcoin? Well, technically yes, but what are the terms? I've already said that I'm not going to honor any Ripple IOUs unless I explicitly state so with terms.

No, I do not have a redemption policy for my IOUs. I promised people one Ripple IOU for a bitcoin, not an actual bitcoin. Debt without terms is absolutely worthless (except for historical value and trying to use the liquidity providers trick).

[BlackLilac Grant]

BFL deserve a scammer tag at this point, but they still buy nearly all of this forum's ad spots, and it seems as though the decision has been made to keep letting them advertise until they stop paying. They have already missed countless promised shipping dates, and defaulted on their power consumption charity wager.

[🏰 TradeFortress 🏰]

BFL deserve a scammer tag at this point, but they still buy nearly all of this forum's ad spots, and it seems as though the decision has been made to keep letting them advertise until they stop paying. They have already missed countless promised shipping dates, and defaulted on their power consumption charity wager.

Offtopic, but are you BlackLilac? Why do you have 2 accounts?

[Nite69]

One person already has, you owe me one more bitcoin. If you do not pay me back, then you are a scammer.

That's me. I have one bitcoin, which is not mine. I can reasonably assume it is either your's or TF's? I will return it when I know for sure to what address.

[BlackLilac Grant]

BFL deserve a scammer tag at this point, but they still buy nearly all of this forum's ad spots, and it seems as though the decision has been made to keep letting them advertise until they stop paying. They have already missed countless promised shipping dates, and defaulted on their power consumption charity wager.

Offtopic, but are you BlackLilac? Why do you have 2 accounts?

Our first service is close to launching and I'm handing the "BlackLilac" account over to the person who I've hired to do our PR. I won't be posting much anymore but I create this account for myself.

[Nite69]

So basicly the ripple system allows me to make a local small kiosk where people can buy ripple iou's for any currency they want. Then they can send the iou's to anywhere in the word, maybe buy something from net.

But the main point is that I can sell the IOU's as debth, ie get the customer's 100€ and give him 100€ IOU's, which i actually create at the same moment he gives me the real money.... So I have a free 100€ loan for ethernity?

But if I want to keep the business running, I guess I should also give customers 100€, if they send me 100 € IOU?

[mccorvic]

How is TradeFortress a scammer? You Ripple shills deserve the tag.

I like this quote.

[Coinseeker]

@Tradefortress...your point is moot and even though it continues to blow up in your face, you refuse to acknowledge that it's not a problem with Ripple,  (Ripple only does what you tell it to do.)  but rather it's a problem with you.  You are misleading people simply to slander Ripple and now you have people trying to get their BTC's back from you and you're giving them a hard time.

You're making an absolute fool out of yourself.  Give it up...your attempts are futile.  

The fact that the mods have not put an end to this shows that "principles" only matter when applied to everyone else except those raking huge profits off this forum.  Shameful.

[Mitzplik]

I think TF is not a scammer.
I agree that ripple IOUs between users are like debts without terms. You trusted that person to do WHATEVER he wants with your money in exchange for a declaration of debt, not a promise of payment. Who owes you is not even a person, is a virtual wallet that is operated by someone. You have a declaration of debt from r3......ghygf! or whatever ripple address. What if that person sells his wallet? Now you trust an unknown! Rsrsrs. This is so naive to trust a ripple addres.

Everyone who accepted to enter in the ripple world agreed to this terms and they have what they paid for. They have their IOUs.

About gateways, things are different in the case you made a deposit, and they are allowed to operate under local anti-scam laws, so they bankly and legally owe you that money, they should provide you liquidity, otherwise they can be sued. The counterpart is a company, and the ripple addres will be linked to it.

IMO we should only trust in gateways.

Still, regarding having exchanges made in my wallet without permission, determined by the flow of orders inside the gateway, i agree that this is too much freedom for free. The gateway uses us as a source of funds for its profitable trading operations without paying for that.

[webr3]

I just sent you a ripple IOU for 50 BTC. Do I owe you bitcoin? Well, technically yes, but what are the terms? I've already said that I'm not going to honor any Ripple IOUs unless I explicitly state so with terms.

No, I do not have a redemption policy for my IOUs. I promised people one Ripple IOU for a bitcoin, not an actual bitcoin. Debt without terms is absolutely worthless (except for historical value and trying to use the liquidity providers trick).

Okay, you owe me 10.15 BTC which you have explicitly given away to users of bitcointalk, asking them to opt in to receive it by taking specific actions: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=206948.0

You purposefully and willing told each user that you were sending them 1 BTC each, an IOU for 1 BTC, and they fully expected to receive that 1 BTC from you, which is why they opted in the first place.

They were not to know whether you had BTC in your account, whether were "good for" the money or not, and as you well knew, the second somebody with BTC from a trusted source opted in, you would incur debt with that person.

YOU sent 1 BTC to multiple people which you had no intention of making good on yourself, YOU asked for the trust from other people. You are entirely 1000% responsible for your own actions.

You promised these people 1 BTC each, 10 have received this so far, and somebody else with 0.15 BTC. In the process you have incurred that debt with me - thankfully not some person who didn't know what they were getting in to.

You owe me 10.15 BTC. And you owe 445+ other people 1 BTC each. You willingly and publicly opted in to this, you set it all up, now you pay the price.

Or are you trying to say that you did not understand this would happen?

Theymos, Mods, John K, I request the scammer tag. TradeFortress owes me 10.15 BTC, and has also promised 445 other users 1 BTC each. As an act of good will, I will not call in the other 50 BTC he has promised to pay me, by issuing me an IOU for said sum.

[Minor Miner]

I think you are going overboard.   What if TF does pay this IOU you feel he has acknowledged?  What if he decides to pay it when the last block is mined (in 2140)?   Do you still feel scammed?  What are your callable rights on this IOU?   Can you send the source that explains the duration of an IOU on ripple?  If TF is still alive, you cannot say that he has not honored his IOU to you.   Only after he is dead and his estate is settled and IF you are left out of the distribution can you really say he never repaid you.

Please do not troll around about this until the his estate is in probate.

[Jaseph]

I just sent you a ripple IOU for 50 BTC. Do I owe you bitcoin? Well, technically yes, but what are the terms? I've already said that I'm not going to honor any Ripple IOUs unless I explicitly state so with terms.

No, I do not have a redemption policy for my IOUs. I promised people one Ripple IOU for a bitcoin, not an actual bitcoin. Debt without terms is absolutely worthless (except for historical value and trying to use the liquidity providers trick).

Okay, you owe me 10.15 BTC which you have explicitly given away to users of bitcointalk, asking them to opt in to receive it by taking specific actions: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=206948.0

You purposefully and willing told each user that you were sending them 1 BTC each, an IOU for 1 BTC, and they fully expected to receive that 1 BTC from you, which is why they opted in the first place.

They were not to know whether you had BTC in your account, whether were "good for" the money or not, and as you well knew, the second somebody with BTC from a trusted source opted in, you would incur debt with that person.

YOU sent 1 BTC to multiple people which you had no intention of making good on yourself, YOU asked for the trust from other people. You are entirely 1000% responsible for your own actions.

You promised these people 1 BTC each, 10 have received this so far, and somebody else with 0.15 BTC. In the process you have incurred that debt with me - thankfully not some person who didn't know what they were getting in to.

You owe me 10.15 BTC. And you owe 445+ other people 1 BTC each. You willingly and publicly opted in to this, you set it all up, now you pay the price.

Or are you trying to say that you did not understand this would happen?

Theymos, Mods, John K, I request the scammer tag. TradeFortress owes me 10.15 BTC, and has also promised 445 other users 1 BTC each. As an act of good will, I will not call in the other 50 BTC he has promised to pay me, by issuing me an IOU for said sum.

I think TF should definitely pay back those hundreds of bitcoins in the time he specified in the contracts. Oh wait, he didn't specify a date!

One of the most important corallaries to Murphy's Law is this:
The hidden flaw never remains so.