Theymos: What the fuck is up with BFL and TradeFortress?

[🏰 TradeFortress 🏰]

Much more, lol. You can check out btcinvest's history.

EDIT: LOL @ one of the people who have being vocal in this smear campaign, thanks for signing up and depositing! I thought you were saying I'm a scammer? 

[The 4ner]

Yes,i am. I dont have many btc, but what I have is on deposit there. If I'm wrong about TF it would be a drag, but wouldn't be life changing. He seems to be able to generate the funds to cover the interest payments.

Yeah same here. I literally bought my first BTC and later found out about his service through his signature ad and decided to deposit my BTC there. Why not? I don't own a rig and I would love for small business to have options for funds. Plus I could increase what very little I have. Lets just hope he is trustworthy his site is pretty cool. If ever he does go rogue on us someone truly trustworthy should create a website just like it. I'd definitely use it.

[MPOE-PR]

So better than pushing him is to beg him to give you Bitstamp BTC.

This was funny. Somebody is running begging classes for the Bitcoin community?

My primary concern with ripple is exactly what TradeFortress has just demonstrated. Ripple IOUs have different values based on the issuer. If they traded on an open market, you would see this. IOUs for a trusted institution are worth more than IOUs for a less trusted one. E.g. you might see Bitstamp USD IOUs trading against Weexchange IOUs at a non-1 rate, such as 1.1.

But we don't see that in ripple (as far as I can tell). Instead, we see a markets labelled by the currencies only, such as USD/XRP. But whose USD? Where's the Bitstamp USD / Weexchange USD market?

The obvious defense to this is that the ripple thing is very new, populated by very clueless people and it will improve in time. The risk of course is that absent competent people involved it will simply end up tagged as a failure (which is happening already). The complete inability of the managing team to obtain and retain the support of competent people seems to irreversibly doom this particular installment (even if the ripple idea might eventually come to some fruition, made and marketed by people with actual skills, understanding and connections rather than by random "hey ma look, I can programmate the computor" folks).

[webr3]

The obvious defense to this is that the ripple thing is very new, populated by very clueless people and it will improve in time. The risk of course is that absent competent people involved it will simply end up tagged as a failure (which is happening already). The complete inability of the managing team to obtain and retain the support of competent people seems to irreversibly doom this particular installment (even if the ripple idea might eventually come to some fruition, made and marketed by people with actual skills, understanding and connections rather than by random "hey ma look, I can programmate the computor" folks).

What rubbish. Do you think Ripple users are not programmers and BitCoin users? I've been programming for almost 20 years, I was in Bitcoin from the start and introduced it to Amir Taaki and Lazlo Torok, I was a very early adopter of Ripple too, and several other money related things from OpenTransactions through to PaySwarm and the surrounding standards. I understand money, debt, and of course am very familiar with David Graebers work. Most of the other Ripple users I know, also come from a similar background.

And now, some newb, TradeFortress, has been allowed to take a vendetta to the point that he can take over $1k from one of those users and get away with it, me. A complete piss take.

[🏰 TradeFortress 🏰]

I was a very early adopter of Ripple too

That explains it.

If you've being on here for a while, you should know that MPOE-PR is pretty much always correct in determining what services and businesses are junk.

[becoin]

Why are you abdicating your responsibilities?

Because they've received a lot of money from BFL both as a forum entity and individually as mods, not all of them but most of them. BFL is obviously a scam and was created to be a scam!

[webr3]

[quoteI was a very early adopter of Ripple too

That explains it.

If you've being on here for a while, you should know that MPOE-PR is pretty much always correct in determining what services and businesses are junk.

So that gives you the right to take out a 100 btc credit line with me, use over 10 BTC of it, and never repay it?

I don't care how honest you are in your other dealings, I'd expect you to be. In this dealing you have given IOUs which were NOT worthless to other users, then taken a BTC debt out with me and passed it on. When you gave that 15 BTC IOU after everything had been proved, you knew exactly what would happen, or indeed arranged it.

Argue about terms, times, whatever, you have an outstanding credit line of 10.15 BTC with me, 9.15 BTC which I demand back. When will you be paying this?

Blockchain 1BqZohTvZ6KmPFj9ThS3CeGqpm3hJYfSqo or Ripple are both fine. You know my ripple address, I've reduced my trust to you so you can't incur any more debt, since you've proved very untrustworthy in the past 24 hours, certainly when dealing with me through ripple. I cannot speak to your other services or transactions, nor do I care about them.

I obviously do see the conflict of interests between code that allows people to lend to their friends and a business which makes money from lending coins though, but perhaps you are just ripping me off to prevent other people from getting ripped off (!?). You/we demonstrated (a) how a system works, (b) that you were untrustworthy.

In this demonstration you played the part of the scammer, the untrustworthy gateway, and I played the part of the hapless victim (to prevent some newb from loosing up to 100 btc). Only after everything was proved, you took it one step further and really did take 9.15 BTC from me.

[🏰 TradeFortress 🏰]

I sent people Ripple BTC when they asked, just like what I have being doing in the giveaway thread. I've sent people thousands of Ripple BTC, and sending 15 Ripple BTC to someone who asked was no exception. Have you being following? I also sent you 50 Ripple BTC too.

Either way, I don't redeem ripple BTCs for real BTCs, and..

For a scammer tag, the accused person needs to have promised to do something and then failed to deliver on the promise. TradeFortress never promised to pay anyone any bitcoins here. If you trust him to do something that he didn't promise, that's your problem.

It's pretty clear that I wasn't going to let you redeem by Ripple IOUs for real bitcoins, I've said it directly to you but you persisted. This is exactly what would happen, have some intelligence pl0x.

[webr3]

I sent people Ripple BTC when they asked, just like what I have being doing in the giveaway thread. I've sent people thousands of Ripple BTC, and sending 15 Ripple BTC to someone who asked was no exception. Have you being following? I also sent you 50 Ripple BTC too.

Either way, I don't redeem ripple BTCs for real BTCs, and..

For a scammer tag, the accused person needs to have promised to do something and then failed to deliver on the promise. TradeFortress never promised to pay anyone any bitcoins here. If you trust him to do something that he didn't promise, that's your problem.

It's pretty clear that I wasn't going to let you redeem by Ripple IOUs for real bitcoins, I've said it directly to you but you persisted. This is exactly what would happen, have some intelligence pl0x.

redeem your ripple IOUs for real bitcoins? They are promises to pay, but who cares, you TOOK real bitcoins from me. Do you hear me talkign about the what-you-suppose-are-worthless IOUs for 50 BTC and 1 BTC you issued me? no.

This is about the fully trusted and backed BTC IOUs you took from me and gave away.

When will you be repaying your debt with me? YOU personally owe ME.

[🏰 TradeFortress 🏰]

I didn't take real bitcoins away from you, I didn't even take BTC.Bitstamp from you (remember when I gave it back to you?). My actions have allowed other independent people to exchange your BTC.Bitstamp to more BTC.TradeFortress, but as I've repeatedly said I'm not paying you BTC because I have never sent you bitcoins in the first place. Just Ripple bitcoin tokens, which are not bitcoins.

Derp. (Also, this is coming from the guy that thinks public blockchain / public ledger is a bug and filed an issue in the bug tracker for ripple).

[🏰 TradeFortress 🏰]

Let me quote this:

My point is that if someone else had done this, you would be at a loss of 10.15 BTC, and I have no obligation to redeem my 10.15 BTC because I had no intention of honoring it in the first place, and there are no terms for redemption.

Oh wow, isn't that exactly what happened. I already stated that I have no intention of honoring it.

TL;DR response to your question: never.

[webr3]

Let me quote this:

My point is that if someone else had done this, you would be at a loss of 10.15 BTC, and I have no obligation to redeem my 10.15 BTC because I had no intention of honoring it in the first place, and there are no terms for redemption.

Oh wow, isn't that exactly what happened. I already stated that I have no intention of honoring it.

TL;DR response to your question: never.

So you admit you are untrustworthy then.

[🏰 TradeFortress 🏰]

Sure, I'm untrustworthy on the things I never promised I'll do.

Ask someone who I actually promised (coinlenders users, btcinvest shareholders) if I'm trustworthy or not.

[webr3]

Sure, I'm untrustworthy on the things I never promised I'll do.

Ask someone who I actually promised (coinlenders users, btcinvest shareholders) if I'm trustworthy or not.

Q: When you set up your scheme, was it with the intention that somebody would loose some "real" BTC?

Also, how comfortable would you be if I extended that trust up to say 30,000 BTC and put in 250 bitstamp backed BTC a day in to that account? Would there be a cut off point were you wouldn't want to incur any more debt, a point where courts may get involved?

[🏰 TradeFortress 🏰]

Also, how comfortable would you be if I extended that trust up to say 30,000 BTC and put in 250 bitstamp backed BTC a day in to that account? Would there be a cut off point were you wouldn't want to incur any more debt, a point where courts may get involved?

I would think you are more intelligent than that, however I guess my assumption was incorrect.

I'm not sure if you understand it or not, but I don't choose if you lose your money or not. I have no control if someone decides to exchange your BTC.Bitstamp for their BTC.TradeFortress.

So, let's say you did extend your trust and put more BTC.Bitstamp in your account. I can't stop you in any way, other than laughing at how retarded you are. Seriously.

Kids, don't use Ripple in it's current state.

[webr3]

Also, how comfortable would you be if I extended that trust up to say 30,000 BTC and put in 250 bitstamp backed BTC a day in to that account? Would there be a cut off point were you wouldn't want to incur any more debt, a point where courts may get involved?

I would think you are more intelligent than that, however I guess my assumption was incorrect.

I'm not sure if you understand it or not, but I don't choose if you lose your money or not. I have no control if someone decides to exchange your BTC.Bitstamp for their BTC.TradeFortress.

So there are 2 different kinds of BTC now? Don't be stupid, there is one BTC, and different people who say they will make good on IOUs for BTC. Bitstamp is one, TradeFortress is another.

Bitstamp makes good on it's IOUs, TradeFortress, you, do not.

Ripple works, you are untrustworthy, you send people undated cheques for them to cash at any point and take out overdrafts with them, then when the people you've sent the cheques to cash them in against the overdrafts you've taken out, you claim no responsibility.

The worst bit is, you did this with eyes wide open, in fact the first person to honor your IOUs was you yourself, you took out 10.15 BTC from me, paid it back, took it out again, incurred another 51 btc debt that is as yet unfunded, and ultimately have 10.15 btc cashed out, and 51 btc waiting to be cashed out.

I put in 10.15 BTC to prevent some poor sucker from getting scammed out of their life savings by your foolish vindictive scheme.

[MPOE-PR]

What rubbish. Do you think Ripple users are not programmers and BitCoin users?

That's exactly that I'm saying: that they're programmers. And also idiots. And also early Bitcoin users, who have been pushed out for their idiocy and are now looking for something small enough so they can continue stroking their idiocy rather than fix it. The good news is that indeed MP doesn't give a shit about Ripple, so you may continue the tardparty. Learn to read between the lines.

So there are 2 different kinds of BTC now? Don't be stupid, there is one BTC, and different people who say they will make good on IOUs for BTC. Bitstamp is one, TradeFortress is another.

Thus BitstampBTC and TradeFortressBTC Mr Clueless Programmer guy sir. Why is this so hard? Is it because you're trying to do finance stuff in BTC without having even heard of mystical magical stuff like say *the eurodollar*? Why do you think it's called EUROdollar (and if you go wikipedia that shit I'm going to punch you in the balls through the fucking monitor).

Stop imagining that if you can code you're worth two shits in the real world. Most of the time the reason you're a programmer IS BECAUSE YOU'RE NOT WORTH TWO SHITS IN THE REAL WORLD. Strictly. Strictly that.

Sure, some very talented people are programmers because that's what they chose for themselves. You're NOT THAT. You're the guy who wasn't good enough to sling dope.

[webr3]

What rubbish. Do you think Ripple users are not programmers and BitCoin users?

That's exactly that I'm saying: that they're programmers. And also idiots. And also early Bitcoin users, who have been pushed out for their idiocy and are now looking for something small enough so they can continue stroking their idiocy rather than fix it. The good news is that indeed MP doesn't give a shit about Ripple, so you may continue the tardparty. Learn to read between the lines.

So there are 2 different kinds of BTC now? Don't be stupid, there is one BTC, and different people who say they will make good on IOUs for BTC. Bitstamp is one, TradeFortress is another.

Thus BitstampBTC and TradeFortressBTC Mr Clueless Programmer guy sir. Why is this so hard? Is it because you're trying to do finance stuff in BTC without having even heard of mystical magical stuff like say *the eurodollar*? Why do you think it's called EUROdollar (and if you go wikipedia that shit I'm going to punch you in the balls through the fucking monitor).

Stop imagining that if you can code you're worth two shits in the real world. Most of the time the reason you're a programmer IS BECAUSE YOU'RE NOT WORTH TWO SHITS IN THE REAL WORLD. Strictly. Strictly that.

Sure, some very talented people are programmers because that's what they chose for themselves. You're NOT THAT. You're the guy who wasn't good enough to sling dope.

Did you come here from the trollbox on BTCe? Grow Up.

[Terk]

Oh this thread is great in showing that side of ripple which most people don't understand and are not even aware of. The way the system works basically looks like a three-click scam creator for script kiddies.

I am waiting for the first ripple gateway-gate. There will be someone who'll create a gateway and bunch of fake ripple users trading on this gateway like crazy, providing lower spreads and much greater liquidity than Bitstamp's gateway users. Plus some marketing efforts to gain the traction. Most of actively trading ripple users will trust that gateway to be able to trade on it with its users, then one day they'll suck all available BTC.Bitstamp and USD.Bistamp and *.OtherLegitimateGateways replacing them with “equally trusted” BTC.Theirs and USD.Theirs, then withdraw to Bitstamp/other gateways real systems, exchange any USD into BTC and send the real BTC away, then close the shop and laugh.

This is what I learnt about ripple because of this thread so thank you both webr3 and TradeFortress for your contribution in the overall awareness of how ripple works.

Totally on the side: ripple web interface is rubbish. I played with ripple for the first time yesterday, and the interface is totally unreliable. You create a trade order, two seconds later see a confirmation that it has been created and even see it in the order book. You cancel the order to create a different one. You see all confirmations, you see order book showing your orders as you'd expect. You do that creating/canceling couple of times. Then you close the client and open it again and you see that your client was totally out of sync with what really happens on the backend. There were some orders that you cancelled and saw cancelled which actually are still open. There were some orders that you created and saw in the order book which actually aren't there (and weren't executed). I've been using a semi-reliable cellular connection yesterday so maybe it doesn't affect most users in their everyday usage, but the fact that it happens on unreliable connections shows that the software is very broken and if it's rubbish in the web client, you should expect it to be rubbish elsewhere as well.

Considering that ripple idea has some serious no-nos (just screaming to use it as three-click scam creator; founders holding tons of XRP; lot of things happening behind closed doors with no transparency) and their software is rubbish, I think it settles my opinion on ripple.

Regarding scam accusations, I'm too new here to throw rocks so I have nothing to say here. Forgive me off-topic post but I found this thread great in providing warnings on how ripple works and how it can be used to replace real currency with worthless IOUs in clueless users wallets. The whole situation deserves to be described objectively and sticked in the altcoins board to warn people on what might happen when they use systems they don't understand.

[solex]

Totally on the side: ripple web interface is rubbish. I played with ripple for the first time yesterday, and the interface is totally unreliable. You create a trade order, two seconds later see a confirmation that it has been created and even see it in the order book. You cancel the order to create a different one. You see all confirmations, you see order book showing your orders as you'd expect. You do that creating/canceling couple of times. Then you close the client and open it again and you see that your client was totally out of sync with what really happens on the backend. There were some orders that you cancelled and saw cancelled which actually are still open. There were some orders that you created and saw in the order book which actually aren't there (and weren't executed). I've been using a semi-reliable cellular connection yesterday so maybe it doesn't affect most users in their everyday usage, but the fact that it happens on unreliable connections shows that the software is very broken and if it's rubbish in the web client, you should expect it to be rubbish elsewhere as well.

This just makes me all the more impressed at how silky smooth and blinding fast reddit is. They must have crushing volumes, but their site responds to every click instantly, no double rows (as you constantly see on MtGox as well). Looking forward to bitcoin sites reaching a reddit level of technical maturity.