Cartel manipulating mining difficulty?

[DooMAD]

Note that the BCash hashrate has dropped almost to zero, i.e. virtually no one is mining this coin presently (obviously till the next difficulty adjustment). By the way, people are massively buying up litecoins right now, the price has risen a whopping 20% within mere 12 hours today and continues to rise. It kinda looks folks are not quite happy with the miners' abuse of power and choose just to walk away from Bitcoin. Any Bitcoin, for that matter

And what's to stop miners from suddenly jumping on Litecoin's chain and doing exactly the same thing there?  That's right, nothing.  Litecoin was supposed to be ASIC-resistant, but that lasted all of a month, heh.  If it's profitable, they'll find a way and start following that chain.  Any contrary to the way you paint the picture, that's actually a good thing.  So either stop using coins that utilise proof of work entirely, or accept that the hashers are free to come and go as they please.  

The real way to influence the miners (rather than constantly sniping at them from the forums or other social media) is to create the biggest incentives to secure the chain you ideally wish to be transacting on.  Clearly Bitcoin has some competition at the moment, so we have to consider the possibility that maybe we can't just fuck the miners off entirely in order to do what the developers want all the time.  It's almost as though we need SegWit and a larger base blocksize to maintain balance, in that each side has to concede a little for everyone to move forward.  Then we can forget all about BitcoinCash and miners hopping between chains, because incentives will be correctly aligned.

[pearlmen]

I am really getting sick and tired of how there are several news about the cartels because the cartels are in business to make money and they will do everything possible to achieve that objective and that's exactly what they are doing but what we can do about it is not to make noise on forums which cannot change anything but ensuring that other massive organisations are influenced to come so as to break the chain of all this domineering factors exhibited by the cartels.

[deisik]

Note that the BCash hashrate has dropped almost to zero, i.e. virtually no one is mining this coin presently (obviously till the next difficulty adjustment). By the way, people are massively buying up litecoins right now, the price has risen a whopping 20% within mere 12 hours today and continues to rise. It kinda looks folks are not quite happy with the miners' abuse of power and choose just to walk away from Bitcoin. Any Bitcoin, for that matter

And what's to stop miners from suddenly jumping on Litecoin's chain and doing exactly the same thing there?  That's right, nothing.  Litecoin was supposed to be ASIC-resistant, but that lasted all of a month, heh.  If it's profitable, they'll find a way and start following that chain.  Any contrary to the way you paint the picture, that's actually a good thing.  So either stop using coins that utilise proof of work entirely, or accept that the hashers are free to come and go as they please

Well, somehow I expected you to be smarter than that

For that to work out with Litecoin, you would obviously have to create Litecoin Cash (or Litecoin Cheque, or something to that tune). Indeed, some miners could actually go for that, and I don't know what Charlie Lee would say to that but I strongly suspect that the other miners would quickly kill the renegades themselves after he mentions about switching to PoS (note that he can do that any moment so miners are already well-bridled). Regarding your other point (the way to influence the miners), the only real way to bring them back to their senses is to massively switch to the same Litecoin, which people are already doing, anyway. And explaining to them what miners are really up to is just one way to make them think in this direction

[DooMAD]

Note that the BCash hashrate has dropped almost to zero, i.e. virtually no one is mining this coin presently (obviously till the next difficulty adjustment). By the way, people are massively buying up litecoins right now, the price has risen a whopping 20% within mere 12 hours today and continues to rise. It kinda looks folks are not quite happy with the miners' abuse of power and choose just to walk away from Bitcoin. Any Bitcoin, for that matter

And what's to stop miners from suddenly jumping on Litecoin's chain and doing exactly the same thing there?  That's right, nothing.  Litecoin was supposed to be ASIC-resistant, but that lasted all of a month, heh.  If it's profitable, they'll find a way and start following that chain.  Any contrary to the way you paint the picture, that's actually a good thing.  So either stop using coins that utilise proof of work entirely, or accept that the hashers are free to come and go as they please

Well, somehow I expected you to be smarter than that

For that to work out with Litecoin, you would obviously have to create Litecoin Cash (or Litecoin Cheque, or something to that tune). Indeed, some miners could actually go for that, and I don't know what Charlie Lee would say to that but I strongly suspect that the other miners would quickly kill the renegades themselves after he mentions about switching to PoS. Regarding your other point (the way to influence the miners), the only real way to bring them back to their senses is to massively switch to the same Litecoin, which people are already doing, anyway. And explaining to them what miners are really up to is just one way to make them think in this direction

//EDIT:  I apologise for those remarks and was mistaken.  I'm not sure how I managed to forget about Scrypt and other algorithms being separate to SHA256.  Though I still I still maintain that forks of Bitcoin aren't necessarily indicative of a miner conspiracy.

So a gap in the market was filled by some developers who felt the same way.  Now there's some pretty evident volatility in which chain is more profitable at any given time, so there's some corresponding changes in hashrate to go along with that.  Volatility doesn't necessarily imply manipulation.  Obviously we can't rule out the possibility that there might be some collusion, but I personally think it's doubtful that a single individual or group has leverage over a majority of hashrate.  I'm still willing to bet on the notion that this is all just everyone following what's in their own best interests in a free and open market, which is precisely how this was designed to work.

So again, it can all be explained entirely innocuously.  There doesn't have to be a cartel for this current situation to arise.  Nothing provided in this thread so far is definitive proof of anything.

[Krimster]

You really aren't doing much to alter the perception I have of you that you don't understand how mining works.  At any time and for any reason, miners can change the software they are using and point their hashpower at any other proof of work chain.  That means, if they saw fit, they could hop between Bitcoin and Litecoin just as easily as they currently hop between Bitcoin and BitcoinCash. or indeed Bitcoin and any other altcoin. 

That hopping would still result in similar swings in difficulty adjustments (although some altcoins may handle that slightly differently if their adjustments occur more or less quickly) to the ones we're witnessing here.  There's no mandatory requirement to fork a coin just to mine an alternate version of it, when you could just as easily choose any other altcoin out there.  This line of thinking also potentially negates your theory that the creation of BitcoinCash was some sort of conspiracy or cartel decision and leans more towards the likelihood that I'm suggesting, in that BitcoinCash was simply filling a gap in the market that some developers aren't willing to cater to.

To elaborate on that, consider that out of all the thousands of potential altcoins out there, if any other altcoin was profitable and provided a ruleset that the miners found amiable, they could have switched to it.  But they didn't.  They want to mine Bitcoin, but at the same time, some of them happen not to agree with the direction it's currently heading in.  So a gap in the market was filled by some developers who felt the same way.  Now there's some pretty evident volatility in which chain is more profitable at any given time, so there's some corresponding changes in hashrate to go along with that.  Volatility doesn't necessarily imply manipulation.  Obviously we can't rule out the possibility that there might be some collusion, but I personally think it's doubtful that a single individual or group has leverage over a majority of hashrate.  I'm still willing to bet on the notion that this is all just everyone following what's in their own best interests in a free and open market, which is precisely how this was designed to work.

So again, it can all be explained entirely innocuously.  There doesn't have to be a cartel for this current situation to arise.  Nothing provided in this thread so far is definitive proof of anything.

I can't stop laughing!!

A Legendary account telling us that at any time. a miner can point his hashing power to a different PoW, and switch from BTC to LTC (or I guess ETH, XMR etc, for the matter). And the best part of all is that he tells other people that "they don't understand how mining works"!!

Honestly, this is simply sublime.

[deisik]

Note that the BCash hashrate has dropped almost to zero, i.e. virtually no one is mining this coin presently (obviously till the next difficulty adjustment). By the way, people are massively buying up litecoins right now, the price has risen a whopping 20% within mere 12 hours today and continues to rise. It kinda looks folks are not quite happy with the miners' abuse of power and choose just to walk away from Bitcoin. Any Bitcoin, for that matter

And what's to stop miners from suddenly jumping on Litecoin's chain and doing exactly the same thing there?  That's right, nothing.  Litecoin was supposed to be ASIC-resistant, but that lasted all of a month, heh.  If it's profitable, they'll find a way and start following that chain.  Any contrary to the way you paint the picture, that's actually a good thing.  So either stop using coins that utilise proof of work entirely, or accept that the hashers are free to come and go as they please

Well, somehow I expected you to be smarter than that

For that to work out with Litecoin, you would obviously have to create Litecoin Cash (or Litecoin Cheque, or something to that tune). Indeed, some miners could actually go for that, and I don't know what Charlie Lee would say to that but I strongly suspect that the other miners would quickly kill the renegades themselves after he mentions about switching to PoS. Regarding your other point (the way to influence the miners), the only real way to bring them back to their senses is to massively switch to the same Litecoin, which people are already doing, anyway. And explaining to them what miners are really up to is just one way to make them think in this direction

You really aren't doing much to alter the perception I have of you that you don't understand how mining works.  At any time and for any reason, miners can change the software they are using and point their hashpower at any other proof of work chain.  That means, if they saw fit, they could hop between Bitcoin and Litecoin just as easily as they currently hop between Bitcoin and BitcoinCash. or indeed Bitcoin and any other altcoin

This doesn't seem to be the case

Anyway, you seem to be too obsessed with your perception of me (just in case, I massively don't care) that you fail to make a few reality checks. As far as I know, with Bitcoin Asics you can mine only Bitcoin, Bitcoin Cash, and some other coin (but certainly not Litecoin). And I specifically addressed that issue (even if it were possible to mine Litecoin with Bitcoin mining equipment) since I in fact expected you to come up with something like this. If you failed to get that idea too, I can repeat it again. It would be a one-off event with Charlie Lee most likely turning Litecoin into a PoS coin in less than no time. Right now he seems to be tied by a sort of agreement with miners, but if miners go nuts, he will be no longer tied by it

[leonair]

A strange idea has occurred to me today

As far as I understand it, if the mining difficulty is too low and there is plenty of hashrate all of a sudden, the mining of new blocks won't be limited to just 6 blocks per hour (on average), right? If so, given the emergence of the mining cartel (controlled by Jihan and Bitmain), they could specifically "invent" Bitcoin Cash to manipulate mining difficulty, and thus mine more blocks on both chains than just 2 times more (more than 2×6=12 blocks). If there is not enough hashrate, say, in Bitcoin Cash (as was the case), the mining difficulty will go down, so the cartel will switch their miners to mining this coin. Then there is not enough hashrate left for Bitcoin, the difficulty readjusts soon thereafter, and miners switch back mining more bitcoins on the original blockchain than before



Then rinse, repeat

As for every aspect in life when it comes in profiting to a thing there is always a group that we called cartel and with your thoughts I am very much agree with it because some groups are really doing this kind of doings. But with this being said by you I think the Bitcoin developers will surely already think about it and will find a way to prevent this.

[jaysabi]

And here we go again:



I'm curious if there is still anyone who is doubting that miners are making full use of the opportunity to earn more profits by moving their hashpower to and fro. Note that the BCash hashrate has dropped almost to zero, i.e. virtually no one is mining this coin presently (obviously till the next difficulty adjustment). By the way, people are massively buying up litecoins right now, the price has risen a whopping 20% within mere 12 hours today and continues to rise. It kinda looks folks are not quite happy with the miners' abuse of power and choose just to walk away from Bitcoin. Any Bitcoin, for that matter

I certainly concur with your analysis about the purposeful targeting of mining, but I don't think it's intended to be abusive. It's just following the money. When it's more profitable to mine BCash, that's where a sizable group of miners go.  When they run the difficulty up to the point where it's more profitable to switch back to Bitcoin, they do.  I don't see anything currently that suggests it's intending to be abusive rather than intending to optimize income.

[deisik]

And here we go again:

I'm curious if there is still anyone who is doubting that miners are making full use of the opportunity to earn more profits by moving their hashpower to and fro. Note that the BCash hashrate has dropped almost to zero, i.e. virtually no one is mining this coin presently (obviously till the next difficulty adjustment). By the way, people are massively buying up litecoins right now, the price has risen a whopping 20% within mere 12 hours today and continues to rise. It kinda looks folks are not quite happy with the miners' abuse of power and choose just to walk away from Bitcoin. Any Bitcoin, for that matter

I certainly concur with your analysis about the purposeful targeting of mining, but I don't think it's intended to be abusive. It's just following the money. When it's more profitable to mine BCash, that's where a sizable group of miners go.  When they run the difficulty up to the point where it's more profitable to switch back to Bitcoin, they do.  I don't see anything currently that suggests it's intending to be abusive rather than intending to optimize income.

Indeed, this is what you would expect from any rational being

They are just following the scent of money, there is nothing inherently wrong in that (everybody and his dog do basically the same anyway). But, first, don't forget that it is damaging Bitcoin. That would most certainly mean even slower confirmation times and higher fees. In fact, it means just that, which has already been sort of proven (especially when the whole bunch starts mining the alternative Bitcoin). And, second, recall how and thanks to whom Bitcoin Cash came about

[jaysabi]

And here we go again:

I'm curious if there is still anyone who is doubting that miners are making full use of the opportunity to earn more profits by moving their hashpower to and fro. Note that the BCash hashrate has dropped almost to zero, i.e. virtually no one is mining this coin presently (obviously till the next difficulty adjustment). By the way, people are massively buying up litecoins right now, the price has risen a whopping 20% within mere 12 hours today and continues to rise. It kinda looks folks are not quite happy with the miners' abuse of power and choose just to walk away from Bitcoin. Any Bitcoin, for that matter

I certainly concur with your analysis about the purposeful targeting of mining, but I don't think it's intended to be abusive. It's just following the money. When it's more profitable to mine BCash, that's where a sizable group of miners go.  When they run the difficulty up to the point where it's more profitable to switch back to Bitcoin, they do.  I don't see anything currently that suggests it's intending to be abusive rather than intending to optimize income.

Indeed, this is what you would expect from any rational being

They are just following the scent of money, there is nothing inherently wrong in that (everybody and his dog do basically the same anyway). But, first, don't forget that it is damaging Bitcoin. That would most certainly mean even slower confirmation times and higher fees. In fact, it means just that, which has already been sort of proven (especially when the whole bunch starts mining the alternative Bitcoin). And, second, recall how and thanks to whom Bitcoin Cash came about

Slower confirmation times are self-regulating, so at most it would be a problem only two weeks in duration before solving itself. Higher fees I'm not sold on as a consequence, as it should also have a self-regulating mechanism to it in that mining difficulty doesn't directly equate to higher fees, only a large queue of unconfirmed transactions competing for limited block space would push transactions fees higher. I certainly don't trust the any mining cartel, whether it be one operating on Bitcoin, BCash or one that switches back and forth, and it has nothing to do with the currency they choose and everything to do with the fact that any sufficiently large group of people become protectionist and use their collective power to their own self-interests. Unless BCash folks are actively sabotaging the Bitcoin network in some fashion, benignly mining on their own chain or attempting to make their own system better doesn't affect Bitcoin much except for potential loss of customers, and that's entirely Bitcoin's own fault.

[deisik]

And here we go again:

I'm curious if there is still anyone who is doubting that miners are making full use of the opportunity to earn more profits by moving their hashpower to and fro. Note that the BCash hashrate has dropped almost to zero, i.e. virtually no one is mining this coin presently (obviously till the next difficulty adjustment). By the way, people are massively buying up litecoins right now, the price has risen a whopping 20% within mere 12 hours today and continues to rise. It kinda looks folks are not quite happy with the miners' abuse of power and choose just to walk away from Bitcoin. Any Bitcoin, for that matter

I certainly concur with your analysis about the purposeful targeting of mining, but I don't think it's intended to be abusive. It's just following the money. When it's more profitable to mine BCash, that's where a sizable group of miners go.  When they run the difficulty up to the point where it's more profitable to switch back to Bitcoin, they do.  I don't see anything currently that suggests it's intending to be abusive rather than intending to optimize income.

Indeed, this is what you would expect from any rational being

They are just following the scent of money, there is nothing inherently wrong in that (everybody and his dog do basically the same anyway). But, first, don't forget that it is damaging Bitcoin. That would most certainly mean even slower confirmation times and higher fees. In fact, it means just that, which has already been sort of proven (especially when the whole bunch starts mining the alternative Bitcoin). And, second, recall how and thanks to whom Bitcoin Cash came about

Slower confirmation times are self-regulating, so at most it would be a problem only two weeks in duration before solving itself. Higher fees I'm not sold on as a consequence, as it should also have a self-regulating mechanism to it in that mining difficulty doesn't directly equate to higher fees, only a large queue of unconfirmed transactions competing for limited block space would push transactions fees higher. I certainly don't trust the any mining cartel, whether it be one operating on Bitcoin, BCash or one that switches back and forth, and it has nothing to do with the currency they choose and everything to do with the fact that any sufficiently large group of people become protectionist and use their collective power to their own self-interests. Unless BCash folks are actively sabotaging the Bitcoin network in some fashion, benignly mining on their own chain or attempting to make their own system better doesn't affect Bitcoin much except for potential loss of customers, and that's entirely Bitcoin's own fault

You seem to misunderstand the whole shebang

First, there are no Bitcoin Core and Bitcoin Cash miners, these are mostly the same miners. Second, they don't spread their hashing power between the two coins as you might think. They either mine the regular Bitcoin (when its difficulty goes down) or mine Bitcoin Cash (when its difficulty has decreased). And while the whole bunch are mining one coin, the other coin is starving in terms of the number of blocks mined. It doesn't matter much for Bitcoin Cash since no one uses it anyway (apart from some speculation, obviously). But this is not so with the original Bitcoin. So when no one mines it (well, almost no one), the new blocks become few and far in between. And this, as you can easily guess, leads to the Bitcoin mempool being filled with unconfirmed transactions. As simple as it gets