Cartel manipulating mining difficulty?

[deisik]

A strange idea has occurred to me today

As far as I understand it, if the mining difficulty is too low and there is plenty of hashrate all of a sudden, the mining of new blocks won't be limited to just 6 blocks per hour (on average), right? If so, given the emergence of the mining cartel (controlled by Jihan and Bitmain), they could specifically "invent" Bitcoin Cash to manipulate mining difficulty, and thus mine more blocks on both chains than just 2 times more (more than 2×6=12 blocks). If there is not enough hashrate, say, in Bitcoin Cash (as was the case), the mining difficulty will go down, so the cartel will switch their miners to mining this coin. Then there is not enough hashrate left for Bitcoin, the difficulty readjusts soon thereafter, and miners switch back mining more bitcoins on the original blockchain than before



Then rinse, repeat

[Herbert2020]

difficulty readjusted takes time (at least for bitcoin it does take time). and that time is about 2 weeks and for 2016 blocks not 1 hour. and i believe this means if they switch to bitcoin cash all of a sudden and mine a lot of blocks they have to wait for at least 2 weeks before coming back to bitcoin to be able to mine more blocks on a reduced difficulty.

and doing things like that will cause a lot of harm to both chains and price will not be kind to these kinds of action, it will drop and they will lose a lot of money because of it.

[deisik]

difficulty readjusted takes time (at least for bitcoin it does take time). and that time is about 2 weeks and for 2016 blocks not 1 hour. and i believe this means if they switch to bitcoin cash all of a sudden and mine a lot of blocks they have to wait for at least 2 weeks before coming back to bitcoin to be able to mine more blocks on a reduced difficulty.

and doing things like that will cause a lot of harm to both chains and price will not be kind to these kinds of action, it will drop and they will lose a lot of money because of it.

2 weeks is not that long

And I said nothing about difficulty readjusting in an hour. Where did you get that? Further, just like overfilling mempool acted toward higher fees, the low hashrate will decrease the number of blocks found on the "abandoned" blockchain that would inevitably lead to higher fees as well (which is what miners are always looking for, no matter what). Did fees going to the moon hurt prices in the past? I guess no, so why should this manipulation cause "a lot of harm to both chains and price"? Bitcoin Cash surged yesterday, just about time miners massively started mining it. Just in case, I don't claim anything up to the point of being certain about that, these are just my thoughts

[Carlsen]

I think that would be a risky strategy.
Minng in bitcoin cash for two weeks would bring you  lot of bitcoin cahs.
But bitcoin cash is even way more volatile than bitcoin at the moment. Yo can not predict at what price you will be able to sell it.
And after those two weeks you have an incredibly high difficulty there. When you go back, the transactions of bitcoin cash would be really slow.
That would drag down the price of BCH.
I think you could play that game maybe twice, but after that all trust in BCH would be lost.

[audaciousbeing]

I have read a lot of things about how the miners have done one bad thing or the other. To the manipulation of fees to the launching of bitcoin cash and now manipulating mining difficulty. In as much as I not speaking for them, be we also need to acknowledge some of the good things they have done for bitcoin because they made it available and even made our transactions possible. They also held to the faith long before some of use even find our way here. But my thinking is that if they could have so much control then Satoshi should have curtail that at the beginning.

[Pursuer]

Bitcoin Cash surged yesterday, just about time miners massively started mining it.

not much about the hashrate and how many miners are mining bitcoin cash has changed as far as I can tell. it was just a bitcoin-cash-specific difficulty adjustment that happened to reduce the difficulty A LOT to help with the very low hashrate and production of blocks.

the price is just a pump because they hyped it a lot by a lot of different news like the 8 MB block, being more profitable, and crap like that.

[DooMAD]

The miners could theoretically employ such a strategy with any other coin, so it seems unlikely they would create a new coin just for that purpose.  The entire notion also relies on the flimsy (and decidedly cliche by this point) premise that there is indeed a cartel and that one person is supposedly calling all the shots and organising all of this.  It's all a bit tin-foil-hat for my tastes.  A sudden jump in hashrate can be explained innocuously.  If you were a fairly large-scale miner, when it's time to upgrade, would you purchase one or two new pieces of hardware?  Or, would it make more sense to buy in bulk and see proportionally larger gains for your investment?

It doesn't always have to be a conspiracy theory.  Unless you're that bored you need to invent these far-flung fantasies just to give your brain something to do.  That would make far more rational sense than anything you've come up with lately.  

Still, if you're adamant you're on to something, maybe gather some facts and figures and attempt to prove it for once.  You know, rather than just constantly speculating and stirring the pot?  Evidence would be far more compelling that just blowing smoke like usual.  Or is that all you're good for?  Throwing enough mud in the hope it sticks?

[deisik]

Still, if you're adamant you're on to something, maybe gather some facts and figures and attempt to prove it for once.  You know, rather than just constantly speculating and stirring the pot?  Evidence would be far more compelling that just blowing smoke like usual.  Or is that all you're good for?  Throwing enough mud in the hope it sticks?

What about "reducing the difficulty A LOT to help with the very low hashrate and production of blocks"?

Would that count as a firmly established fact (sort of proof) or what? Otherwise, what is the purpose of your post? The best part of it you seem to be talking and insinuating about myself specifically (that's nice of course, but that's certainly not what this topic is about). So the miners lowered the difficulty as they saw appropriate, and then a lot of hashrate got instantly poured into Bitcoin Cash (by far exceeding the current difficulty with dozens of blocks being mined hourly). Ironically, it coincided with the massive surge in the price of this coin, which set a perfect playground for earning hefty profits. Not bad, by any means. It might be a one-shot event, indeed, but what prevents miners from manipulating the difficulty again, at least with Bcash (and likely in some other way)?

[deisik]

Well, it seems that my idea has more substance behind it than I myself first thought. Some dude above went rather verbose about me actually providing some proofs at last. Now it's time to look more closely into the matter (I think that should pass as a proof). As always, everyone is to think for themselves and draw conclusions on their own. And I am eager to hear the opinion of that dude too

Hashrate chart



Difficulty chart



Speed chart



Difficulty adjustment chart



The last two charts seem to be particularly interesting. First, note that at the speed chart the hashrate divided by difficulty went below 1 for regular Bitcoin. In simple terms, it pretty much means lack of hashing power for the given difficulty. Second, note that the next difficulty adjustment will happen in just 2 days (I would say the cartel has timed their actions perfectly), and, ironically, the mining difficulty of Bitcoin is going down as I speculated in the opening post. Since miners mining both regular Bitcoin and Bitcoin Cash are essentially the same miners, the hashpower they have has to be split between the two coins, and thus with Bitcoin Cash they invented a nice tool to manipulate the difficulty by moving the hashrate power from one coin to the other when the right time comes (and earn handsomely at that)

[Pursuer]

Hashrate chart

this is relative hashrate chart not hashrate chart.
for example this means something like this:
btc hashrate: 5000 : 98.03%
bcc hashrate: 100 : 1.96%

then after a week:
btc hashrate: 5000 : 83.33%
bcc hashrate: 1000 : 16.66%

arbitrary numbers but that is practically what the chart shows.

nothing about bitcoin has changed so far. the blocks are being mined at the same rate. or at least if anything has changed it is not yet noticeable.

on the other hand it seems like many have been waiting for this difficulty adjustment of BCC (as I have also suspected some time ago) and as it was lowered a lot, they rushed to mine it. currently in the past 1 hour there has been about 66 blocks mined.
105 in 2 hours
129 in 3 hours

but this still doesn't prove anything from bitcoin is taken to dedicate to bitcoin cash.

[minime]

see nothing wrong, miners could even stop mining at all for some time to force a sharp drop down of diff its just capitalism

[deisik]

this is relative hashrate chart not hashrate chart.
for example this means something like this:
btc hashrate: 5000 : 98.03%
bcc hashrate: 100 : 1.96%

then after a week:
btc hashrate: 5000 : 83.33%
bcc hashrate: 1000 : 16.66%

arbitrary numbers but that is practically what the chart shows

You seem to miss the whole idea behind these numbers

Which I mentioned in my post but which you kinda ignored. These are not arbitrary numbers since they show the distribution of available hash power between the two coins, i.e. they should necessarily amount to 100% in total. In this case, they reveal that more and more miners stop mining Bitcoin (i.e. take some part of their hashrate from mining Bitcoin) and start mining Bitcoin Cash (i.e. move more their hashing power to this coin), you can easily see that at the Speed chart. But these are the same miners and the same hash power which is just being redistributed, so the absolute value of it is irrelevant (if that was your point)

but this still doesn't prove anything from bitcoin is taken to dedicate to bitcoin cash.

So you choose to ignore the facts, okay then

[Argon2]

Jihan has ZERO control over Bitmain/AntPool. He is nothing but a co-founder and loudmouth. You are an idiot if you think he can move a single PH/s away and not get busted. *some* AntPool miners mine BCH but Bitmain mines NONE. Educate yourself or stay ignorant...

[deisik]

Jihan has ZERO control over Bitmain/AntPool. He is nothing but a co-founder and loudmouth. You are an idiot if you think he can move a single PH/s away and not get busted. *some* AntPool miners mine BCH but Bitmain mines NONE. Educate yourself or stay ignorant...

I'd rather say that it is you who is a loudmouth

At first you claim that Jihan has zero, even ZERO control over Bitmain as well as AntPool, and right in the next sentence you proceed to claim that he is a co-founder. As I understand it, you can't have it both ways, i.e. to be one of the founders and have no control over what you co-founded. Further, Bitmain itself can't mine anything since they are a company producing mining equipment, not using it to mine bitcoins on their own

[minime]

this is relative hashrate chart not hashrate chart.
for example this means something like this:
btc hashrate: 5000 : 98.03%
bcc hashrate: 100 : 1.96%

then after a week:
btc hashrate: 5000 : 83.33%
bcc hashrate: 1000 : 16.66%

arbitrary numbers but that is practically what the chart shows

You seem to miss the whole idea behind these numbers

Which I mentioned in my post but which you kinda ignored. These are not arbitrary numbers since they show the distribution of available hash power between the two coins, i.e. they should necessarily amount to 100% in total. In this case, they reveal that more and more miners stop mining Bitcoin (i.e. take some part of their hashrate from mining Bitcoin) and start mining Bitcoin Cash (i.e. move more their hashing power to this coin), you can easily see that at the Speed chart. But these are the same miners and the same hash power which is just being redistributed, so the absolute value of it is irrelevant (if that was your point)

but this still doesn't prove anything from bitcoin is taken to dedicate to bitcoin cash.

So you choose to ignore the facts, okay then

you are Legendary member and you do not understand the network??? naybe you should realise bitcoin/ Bitcoin Network is owned by its miner u should stop complaining

[Argon2]

Jihan has ZERO control over Bitmain/AntPool. He is nothing but a co-founder and loudmouth. You are an idiot if you think he can move a single PH/s away and not get busted. *some* AntPool miners mine BCH but Bitmain mines NONE. Educate yourself or stay ignorant...

I'd rather say that it is you who is a loudmouth

At first you claim that Jihan has zero, even ZERO control over Bitmain and AntPool and in the next sentence you proceed to claim that he is a co-founder. As I understand it, it doesn't go well together, i.e. being one of the founders and having no control over what you co-founded. Further, Bitmain itself can't mine anything since they are a company producing mining equipment, not using it to mine bitcoins

Co-Founders have no company control. Clearly you have never co-founded any companies. Bitmain has investors and the investors run the show. Go back to school...

[deisik]

Jihan has ZERO control over Bitmain/AntPool. He is nothing but a co-founder and loudmouth. You are an idiot if you think he can move a single PH/s away and not get busted. *some* AntPool miners mine BCH but Bitmain mines NONE. Educate yourself or stay ignorant...

I'd rather say that it is you who is a loudmouth

At first you claim that Jihan has zero, even ZERO control over Bitmain and AntPool and in the next sentence you proceed to claim that he is a co-founder. As I understand it, it doesn't go well together, i.e. being one of the founders and having no control over what you co-founded. Further, Bitmain itself can't mine anything since they are a company producing mining equipment, not using it to mine bitcoins

Co-Founders have no company control. Clearly you have never co-founded any companies. Bitmain has investors and the investors run the show. Go back to school...

That's hilarious

I guess you may want to tell us more about Bitmain investors. Who are they, the top members of the CPC? Regarding co-founding and control, Bill Gates was one of Microsoft founders (along with Paul Allen), and Microsoft is a public company at that (and has been that since 1981). Now try to tell anyone that Gates has (had) no control over Microsoft (when he was there). But ultimately this is irrelevant since this topic is not about Jihan or any other single individual. So if you have nothing to say on topic, stick your tongue in your ass and shut the fuck up

you are Legendary member and you do not understand the network??? naybe you should realise bitcoin/ Bitcoin Network is owned by its miner u should stop complaining

You may learn to write first

[deisik]

Some dudes above asked for an absolute Bitcoin vs Bitcoin Cash hashrate chart. Here it is:



I'm also utterly curious if there is still anyone who is gonna claim that "this still doesn't prove anything from bitcoin is taken to dedicate to bitcoin cash". As the saying goes, seeing is believing, so I wanna hear from them, what they are gonna say now. It kinda looks like we are not very far from Bitcoin Cash hashrate taking over Bitcoin's, but this is certainly not what the cartel is looking for. They are looking for profits, as always, and today that means manipulating mining difficulty via moving hashrate around. Get ready for more to come!

[Krimster]

All this just proves that two major coins coexisting with the same, dedicated ASICS where hundreds of millions have been invested are a recipe for trouble. This situation is not stable in the long term, but I have no idea of how it will all end.

[Ev0P1l0t]

thanks for sharing that, i had wondered something similar but did not have enough knowledge to even know were to start to research