Capitalism (continued from How do you deal with the thought about taxes)

[ktttn]

*yawn* So it's usually appropriation from the previous owner.

You mean, theft? Or did they pay that previous owner for the property?

*double yawn* Some exchange is made and the new person somehow gets the materials from the previous person.

Yes, that's the way capitalism works. A voluntary exchange of value for value is made, and the new owner gets the materials from the old owner.

Nothing is voluntary with a gun to your head. There are factors at play, the omnipresent state, that youre ignoring. Capitalism in a stateless world is like Serfdom in a landless world.
By the way, Im pro monarchy.

[myrkul]

*yawn* So it's usually appropriation from the previous owner.

You mean, theft? Or did they pay that previous owner for the property?

*double yawn* Some exchange is made and the new person somehow gets the materials from the previous person.

Yes, that's the way capitalism works. A voluntary exchange of value for value is made, and the new owner gets the materials from the old owner.

Nothing is voluntary with a gun to your head. There are factors at play, the omnipresent state, that youre ignoring. Capitalism in a stateless world is like Serfdom in a landless world.
By the way, Im pro monarchy.

*sigh* Yes, everyone is insane today.
You're an idiot.

[ktttn]

Food is not wealth. Food, water- resources like this exist on a more basic Heirarchy of needs.

The whole reason war started is because 1 tribe wanted the other tribes food, water and women. Which was the first "wealth". Before you just got what you needed and used it. Now, we stockpile. That is the definition of wealth, period. Having enough resources to not have to hunt, farm, etc. for a day, week, month, year, etc.

Stretching the definitition of war perhaps? Inevitably, scarcity of basic lifegiving goods will spark conflict, but in a world where food scarcity is a PR campaign, War happens.
Wealth is a level above the biological needs of a person. It's extra.
The Rainbow gathering discourages trading for food and water in order to allow for.trade if other things.
Intresting experiment btw.

[ktttn]

*Deep breath*
A factory takeover is always a peaceful, organized process if the profiteer being deposed has the good sense to gtfo, and doesn't call in the riot cops, instead opting to let the rightful owners, the workers, take over.

All right, we'll start with the easy one.

What makes them the "rightful" owners? There are only two ways to legitimately acquire property:
Original appropriation (homesteading), or voluntary purchase.

Secondary appropriation, or "squatting" is only valid on abandoned property. Certainly you're not claiming that the factory owner (or shareholders) abandoned the factory?

Use determines utility. Who uses the factory? Workers? They own it.

utility 

The state of being useful, profit-able, or beneficial.

ownership 

the relation of an owner to the thing possessed; possession with the right to transfer possession to others.

Those definitions don't match.

Spot on. Thus, capitalism is wasteful of human life and resources. When an owner doesnt use a thing, the thing is defacto abandoned.

[FinShaggy]

Food is not wealth. Food, water- resources like this exist on a more basic Heirarchy of needs.

The whole reason war started is because 1 tribe wanted the other tribes food, water and women. Which was the first "wealth". Before you just got what you needed and used it. Now, we stockpile. That is the definition of wealth, period. Having enough resources to not have to hunt, farm, etc. for a day, week, month, year, etc.

Stretching the definitition of war perhaps? Inevitably, scarcity of basic lifegiving goods will spark conflict, but in a world where food scarcity is a PR campaign, War happens.
Wealth is a level above the biological needs of a person. It's extra.
The Rainbow gathering discourages trading for food and water in order to allow for.trade if other things.
Intresting experiment btw.

Wealth HAS evolved to mean more.
But the base of wealth is having food, shelter, water, women and comfort. Maybe some weed ("spices"). Everything else is just man made extras meant to expand on comfort and give you more access to the rest of the world.

[ktttn]

If you oppose the NON AGGRESSION principle, that makes you aggressive pretty much by definition, doesn't it?

lol
According to yer zany capitalist revisionist rhetoric nonsense grasping fer straws reasoning, whatever.
Try nonviolence.

[myrkul]

When an owner doesnt use a thing, the thing is defacto abandoned.

I see. So, if I'm not in my car, it's abandoned? If I've gone off to work for the day, my house is abandoned? If I let you borrow my car for the week, it's abandoned? If you house-sit for me for the weekend, it's abandoned?

If you oppose the NON AGGRESSION principle, that makes you aggressive pretty much by definition, doesn't it?

lol
According to yer zany capitalist revisionist rhetoric nonsense grasping fer straws reasoning, whatever.
Try nonviolence.

Works just fine if everyone is nonviolent. But if you refuse to defend yourself, you're just handing your life over to the aggressor.

[ktttn]

Nothing is voluntary with a gun to your head. There are factors at play, the omnipresent state, that youre ignoring. Capitalism in a stateless world is like Serfdom in a landless world.
By the way, Im pro monarchy.

*sigh* Yes, everyone is insane today.
You're an idiot.

No.
...

I'm a cute little kitty-cat-meowmeow, herpderp capitalist blinderwearing herpderp!
Hypotheticals are cool unless you forget theyr'e hypotheticals.
Almost called you capitalist swine, but didn't. I dont actually think youre swine, just miseducated.

[myrkul]

Hypotheticals are cool unless you forget theyr'e hypotheticals.

Capitalism exists anywhere free trade is permitted. It existed before the State, it will exist after.

[ktttn]

Stretching the definitition of war perhaps? Inevitably, scarcity of basic lifegiving goods will spark conflict, but in a world where food scarcity is a PR campaign, War happens.
Wealth is a level above the biological needs of a person. It's extra.
The Rainbow gathering discourages trading for food and water in order to allow for.trade if other things.
Intresting experiment btw.

Wealth HAS evolved to mean more.
But the base of wealth is having food, shelter, water, women and comfort. Maybe some weed ("spices"). Everything else is just man made extras meant to expand on comfort and give you more access to the rest of the world.

The process of moving forward requires that those basics are covered or at least not blocked for everyone.

[ktttn]

Hypotheticals are cool unless you forget theyr'e hypotheticals.

Capitalism exists anywhere free trade is permitted. It existed before the State, it will exist after.

HA HA HA HA HA OH WOW.
Ill let someone else cover this slip up.
OH.. my sides. oh..
So, you dont wanna just call that trade? Youre THAT married to the word capitalism?
Unholy mother of Satan, son, get your shit together!
Cognitive dissonance much?

[ktttn]

When an owner doesnt use a thing, the thing is defacto abandoned.

I see. So, if I'm not in my car, it's abandoned? If I've gone off to work for the day, my house is abandoned? If I let you borrow my car for the week, it's abandoned? If you house-sit for me for the weekend, it's abandoned?

If you oppose the NON AGGRESSION principle, that makes you aggressive pretty much by definition, doesn't it?

lol
According to yer zany capitalist revisionist rhetoric nonsense grasping fer straws reasoning, whatever.
Try nonviolence.

Works just fine if everyone is nonviolent. But if you refuse to defend yourself, you're just handing your life over to the aggressor.

STRAW MAN FALLACY lrn2notuse it.
Martial arts are essentialy able to be deeply understood to be nonviolent.
Nonviolence is a rejection of the violent conversation.

[myrkul]

Hypotheticals are cool unless you forget theyr'e hypotheticals.

Capitalism exists anywhere free trade is permitted. It existed before the State, it will exist after.

HA HA HA HA HA OH WOW.
Ill let someone else cover this slip up.
OH.. my sides. oh..
So, you dont wanna just call that trade? Youre THAT married to the word capitalism?
Unholy mother of Satan, son, get your shit together!
Cognitive dissonance much?

Free trade requires recognition of private property rights. That's capitalism, Kitten.

Martial arts are essentialy able to be deeply understood to be nonviolent.

Aikido is non-aggressive. But as you're flying through the air after attacking an Aikido practitioner, consider whether or not your landing will be "violent."

[ktttn]

Hypotheticals are cool unless you forget theyr'e hypotheticals.

Capitalism exists anywhere free trade is permitted. It existed before the State, it will exist after.

HA HA HA HA HA OH WOW.
Ill let someone else cover this slip up.
OH.. my sides. oh..
So, you dont wanna just call that trade? Youre THAT married to the word capitalism?
Unholy mother of Satan, son, get your shit together!
Cognitive dissonance much?

Free trade requires recognition of private property rights. That's capitalism, Kitten.

Martial arts are essentialy able to be deeply understood to be nonviolent.

Aikido is non-aggressive. But as you're flying through the air after attacking an Aikido practitioner, consider whether or not your landing will be "violent."

Nah, rights as recognized by the rightgivering state as opposed to natural rights ( fo'lackovabttrterm ) are no more than targets for the state to attack. Name a right the state doesnt casually violate daily.
Lets say...
Some sketchy bastard steals my backpack or jacket, the state gawks uselessly, helplessly while "recognition" -ing my "rights."
As for Akido,
One's landing will be a sudden, eyeopening jolt of one rethinking a mugging. Ideally, of course. These things are the on the periphery of the theory of nonviolence. Ill treat them with less rigor.

[FinShaggy]

The process of moving forward requires that those basics are covered or at least not blocked for everyone.

True, but before the idea of "wealth" we just followed the herds and foraged for berries or planted things along their regular route. Then some society stock piled (either through war or mass foraging, or by pure luck they just had tons of dodo birds or something in the area) and were able to wait for a crop to come.

[myrkul]

Nah, rights as recognized by the rightgivering state as opposed to natural rights ( fo'lackovabttrterm ) are no more than targets for the state to attack. Name a right the state doesnt casually violate daily.

You'll get no argument there. Which is why I am an anarcho-capitalist. You can't have an organization defending your rights if it violates them on the regular.

Lets say...
Some sketchy bastard steals my backpack or jacket, the state gawks uselessly, helplessly while "recognition" -ing my "rights."

That's a cute little story there, but I don't see where you're trying to go with it.

As for Akido,
One's landing will be a sudden, eyeopening jolt of one rethinking a mugging. Ideally, of course.

Precisely. Aikido perfectly encapsulates the non-aggression principle. It does not attack, only responds. It uses proportional force to the attacker's own. It is a very peaceful art.

[ktttn]

The process of moving forward requires that those basics are covered or at least not blocked for everyone.

True, but before the idea of "wealth" we just followed the herds and foraged for berries or planted things along their regular route. Then some society stock piled (either through war or mass foraging, or by pure luck they just had tons of dodo birds or something in the area) and were able to wait for a crop to come.

Regional development is a form of wealth. Property ownership in terms of land begs the question of the country state- posessing remotely and the problem that is soverignty. Dodo birds. yo.

[ktttn]

Nah, rights as recognized by the rightgivering state as opposed to natural rights ( fo'lackovabttrterm ) are no more than targets for the state to attack. Name a right the state doesnt casually violate daily.

You'll get no argument there. Which is why I am an anarcho-capitalist. You can't have an organization defending your rights if it violates them on the regular.

Lets say...
Some sketchy bastard steals my backpack or jacket, the state gawks uselessly, helplessly while "recognition" -ing my "rights."

That's a cute little story there, but I don't see where you're trying to go with it.

As for Akido,
One's landing will be a sudden, eyeopening jolt of one rethinking a mugging. Ideally, of course.

Precisely. Aikido perfectly encapsulates the non-aggression principle. It does not attack, only responds. It uses proportional force to the attacker's own. It is a very peaceful art.

anarcho
Anarchocuteness is the ancient martial art.
anarchocapitalism is a mythical interim transition state.
Marx was an anarcho. But forealdo. capitalism has failed.

[FinShaggy]

The process of moving forward requires that those basics are covered or at least not blocked for everyone.

True, but before the idea of "wealth" we just followed the herds and foraged for berries or planted things along their regular route. Then some society stock piled (either through war or mass foraging, or by pure luck they just had tons of dodo birds or something in the area) and were able to wait for a crop to come.

Regional development is a form of wealth. Property ownership in terms of land begs the question of the country state- posessing remotely and the problem that is soverignty. Dodo birds. yo.

I'm not saying that there aren't other forms of wealth. My ONLY point is that having stockpiles of food, water and other necessities can be considered wealth.

[myrkul]

anarchocapitalism is a mythical interim transition state.

You're making it very difficult for me to treat you as a sentient creature.