Capitalism (continued from How do you deal with the thought about taxes)

[Elwar]

Food is not wealth.

Words are fun.

I consider it unethical to pay for food.

Good luck with that.

[myrkul]

I consider it unethical to pay for food.

Good luck with that.

Well, this is a person who considers a locked dumpster a "waste."

[neutrinox]

ktttn, if capitalism is such a bad thing, and socialism is so great, then why do we get a very different picture when we look at the actual real world evidence?

Why are capitalist countries almost always over-performing compared to communist/socialist countries? Why are some of the best places to live capitalist countries and worst places to live socialist countries? Why do you think that is?

[FinShaggy]

ktttn, if capitalism is such a bad thing, and socialism is so great, then why do we get a very different picture when we look at the actual real world evidence?

Why are capitalist countries almost always over-performing compared to communist/socialist countries? Why are some of the best places to live capitalist countries and worst places to live socialist countries? Why do you think that is?

Because there is no such thing as a socialist country. In real life (so far) socialism always turns into communism.

Socialism is perfect... On paper. But some group always takes the leadership role, and walk around looking like war heroes and driving gold Cadillac's at the people's expense.

[Ekaros]

ktttn, if capitalism is such a bad thing, and socialism is so great, then why do we get a very different picture when we look at the actual real world evidence?

Why are capitalist countries almost always over-performing compared to communist/socialist countries? Why are some of the best places to live capitalist countries and worst places to live socialist countries? Why do you think that is?

Because there is no such thing as purely capitalist country. And I wouldn't like to live in such place as I know I won't be the own with sufficient capital...

[neutrinox]

Because there is no such thing as purely capitalist country. And I wouldn't like to live in such place as I know I won't be the own with sufficient capital...

Capitalist country = country that allows accumulation of private property and wealth. Most countries are capitalistic these days. Even China is getting there. Which of course is improving their living standard.

IMHO capitalism doesn't mean that there should be absoutely no taxes. If the people in the capitalist country decide democratically that it is smart to pay some taxes because that's an efficient way of dealing with some problems, then paying those taxes is good. But the tax system should not create a situation that is punishing those who create things and rewarding those who do not. We need to reward the best of us = the ones that are able to produce things that other people need and want. Taxes should not be used to redistribute wealth.

I'm really surprised someone is still arguing for socialism these days. A great part of the world already tried it. It didin't work. All you need to do is follow the evidence.

[ktttn]

Food is not wealth.

Words are fun.

I consider it unethical to pay for food.

Good luck with that.

Food is free, ask the dumpster or your garden. Scarcity is a malignant lie.
When the capitalist corners the market on human livers in addition to other commodities like mineral reserves, water, or food, or land in the case of the state, we will always see the same disparity. Lets avoid that.
Corporations like Exxon ect. manage resources in a way that kills people or at least deprives them of free access to that resource. To maintain this we need the coercive state, or at least clever marketing.
When Monsanto corners the food market even more fully, mere existence becomes debt to the capitalists.
Meanwhile, outside of capitalism, all is for all, the price is not manipulatibely inflated by monopoly, and people stop starving to death.
AT THE SAME TIME, my chef buddy prepares free ingredients, makes the tasty tasty, and I donate BTC to help the talented chef feed more people wonderful delicacies.
Is raw material wealth? No. It's the potential for it

[FinShaggy]

I'm really surprised someone is still arguing for socialism these days. A great part of the world already tried it. It didin't work. All you need to do is follow the evidence.

I'm really surprised that you are surprised. All the colleges in Texas have huge socialist populations, and in Mexico ALL the kids are socialist, and there is even a party that uses swastikas.

[neutrinox]

Food is free, ask the dumpster or your garden. Scarcity is a malignant lie.

That's ridiculous. Food takes a lot of work to produce, thus it's not free.

If it's free, then why are you paying for it? Just farm it yourself.

[FinShaggy]

Is raw material wealth? No. It's the potential for it

That is completely wrong. That "wealth" will be used to buy food, water and other necessities.


By your logic you would rather have 1 gold bar than a lifetime supply of dried foods. Even though NO ONE is going to buy a gold bar from you. Who the fuck could afford to? (unless you found some people who are really wealthy in terms of green paper) Yeah you've got wealth, but the wealth of the lifetime supply is better.

[neutrinox]

I'm really surprised that you are surprised. All the colleges in Texas have huge socialist populations, and in Mexico ALL the kids are socialist, and there is even a party that uses swastikas.

Well, if you are still a socialist these days, then you are not following the evidence.

[ktttn]

ktttn, if capitalism is such a bad thing, and socialism is so great, then why do we get a very different picture when we look at the actual real world evidence?

Why are capitalist countries almost always over-performing compared to communist/socialist countries? Why are some of the best places to live capitalist countries and worst places to live socialist countries? Why do you think that is?

Communism is post-capitalistic state monopoly.
Socialism is an umbrella term without much real meaning to me.
Reigions all have their ups and downs. Capitalists exploit people to increae their own affluence the value of this is up to you. I guess that makes a mansion in a 'good' neighborhood nice... Lawns.
They dont exist in a vaccumm. Exploiters always have the exploited in ghettoes, on any scale.

[FinShaggy]

I'm really surprised that you are surprised. All the colleges in Texas have huge socialist populations, and in Mexico ALL the kids are socialist, and there is even a party that uses swastikas.

Well, if you are still a socialist these days, then you are not following the evidence.

I'm not a socialist, I'm saying it is a rampant political view all over North America.

And the evidence doesn't point to ANYTHING. There is NO evidence, as there has never been a TRUE socialist society. Everything you are thinking of was COMMUNIST.

[neutrinox]

And the evidence doesn't point to ANYTHING. There is NO evidence, as there has never been a TRUE socialist society. Everything you are thinking of was COMMUNIST.

Please define what you mean by "true socialist society" so I can respond accurately.

[FinShaggy]

And the evidence doesn't point to ANYTHING. There is NO evidence, as there has never been a TRUE socialist society. Everything you are thinking of was COMMUNIST.

Please define what you mean by "true socialist society" so I can respond accurately.

A society where EVERYONE is equal, EVERYTHING is shared an EVERYONE is given the same items, wealth and advantages at birth.

[neutrinox]

Communism is post-capitalistic state monopoly.
Socialism is an umbrella term without much real meaning to me.
Reigions all have their ups and downs. Capitalists exploit people to increae their own affluence the value of this is up to you. I guess that makes a mansion in a 'good' neighborhood nice... Lawns.
They dont exist in a vaccumm. Exploiters always have the exploited in ghettoes, on any scale.

If I sacrifice my time and succeed in creating something that has so much value to you that you want to pay me for it, then how on earth am I exploiting you? You are giving me your money freely, because you want what I have created. You want to make those who create things with value the bad guys? Can't you see that if you punish the producers then they cease to have a reason for creatings better things for everyone?

[ktttn]

Food is free, ask the dumpster or your garden. Scarcity is a malignant lie.

That's ridiculous. Food takes a lot of work to produce, thus it's not free.

If it's free, then why are you paying for it? Just farm it yourself.

My chef buddy got some free food from the crowdfunded community garden, planted witn non copyrighted seeds and prepared a gourmet meal for me. For free.
I tip her. DIY.
Where does capitalism need to be here?
I am not paying for food. See: Freeganism.
Food is an abstraction of things like pomegranates, sugar and deer meat.
Do you know how capitaism deals with sugar?
Factory farms, beakless legless chickens...

[neutrinox]

A society where EVERYONE is equal, EVERYTHING is shared an EVERYONE is given the same items, wealth and advantages at birth.

Well that's just impossible and will never happen. No use talking about something completely imaginary like that. It's like talking about a world in which all the lakes are made out of beer. Useless.

[Ekaros]

Problem with any system is that humans have needs.

And the need to full-fill these needs is very often exploited or exploitable...

There is no perfect solution yet, because some humans aren't altruistic...

[FinShaggy]

Well that's just impossible and will never happen. No use talking about something completely imaginary like that. It's like talking about a world in which all the lakes are made out of beer. Useless.

1. Just because it doesn't seem plausible in the modern world, does not make it impossible (there is an island were people share cars and stuff, so it is actually ALMOST real in some places).

2. I'm not talking about something imaginary. THAT IS socialism. The thing you are thinking of is Communism. It is not like talking about lakes made out of beer, it is like talking about socialism.