Capitalism (continued from How do you deal with the thought about taxes)

[myrkul]

Laws chosen by vote?

Yeah, common law infringes on personal freedom in my opinion.

Then that's not at all what I'm talking about.

If you are trying to say that the laws we make now are better than elected law, then that is what you are talking about.

Market law.

[blablahblah]

Are you no longer hungry or thirsty? Your life has been improved.
If you skip the oil change and your car breaks down, your life sucks. The oil change improves your life (or, rather, prevents a reduction in your living conditions).

Just because your "Life is improved slightly" does NOT make your LIVING condition go up.

Yeah, that's pretty much the definition.

No, you fool. You're confusing a hypothetical 'exchange' that has zero nett profit with a "profitable exchange" where your greed pays off and you happen to get more real-world value than what your monetary debt represented.
E.g.:
You have a $100 bill.
Therefore, society 'owes' you exactly $100 worth of 'stuff. Not $105 worth of stuff.

[FinShaggy]

Market law.

How are new laws created in a market law system?

[Malawi]

Market law.

How are new laws created in a market law system?

Highest bidder win and you'll get soylent green at nearest streetcorner. 

[FinShaggy]

Market law.

How are new laws created in a market law system?

Highest bidder win and you'll get soylent green at nearest streetcorner. 

Gross.

[ktttn]

ktttn = Squeaky strawman, commissioned by Moneyed Moms for their teething sons:  A fun, safe, and engaging chew toy for budding neocons .

@everyone debating *her:  You've been trolled.  Ktttn®, also marketed as My First Anarchist®, is a product of BiteMarx, inc.

I approve.
Edit: NOMNOMNOMNOMMOM

[ktttn]

How high up should the free standard of living be? Water as long as nestle doesn't copyright it... Food? I personally think so.
Utilities? Internet access? Medical care? You don't need state communism to make those free, just open sourcing.

These are NOT free things. Someone has to produce them. So if we reduce (for simplicitys sake) the community to just you and me, you seem to expect that I should just provide you all those services free of cost.

Here's the thing really: being alive means working and nobody, let me repeat, nobody owns You anything. You are responsible for your own well-being. Not me, not your neighbor, not anyone else but You.

Don't like working? Fine by me, but don't expect me to give you the fruits of my work. Hate being an employee? Don't be one. You have the choice.

We are all trying to get a utopia, sooner or later, are we not? Stateless capitalism seems quite more fictional to me than does some Anarchistic economics.
The cost of food and water by means of scavanging and a community effort easily reaches zero. Tesla might say that electricity can be free too. Internet? Hey you got me.
The field of medicine however is polluted by fees and junk. Payment should be based on the patients ability, satisfaction and not being deadness. Living is dificult enough without profiteers breathing down your neck.

[ktttn]

edit:  As far as socialism & communism bringing about awful living conditions:  What are you basing this on?  

Isn't it quite obvious: just about every socialist country there has been trough out history. The Soviet Union, east European countries, DDR, Cuba, Mao's China... And of course the lovely North Korea for a nice current example. Let me ask you the opposite: where has socialism or communism ever worked to create a country that is better off than capitalist countries?

Can we talk about Scandanavia?

[ktttn]

Monopoly... Never, ever good especially when state sponsored... like capitalism has to be in order to not be ripped to shreds by the raging masses it both stupefies and exploits.
We are in a somewhat postcapitalist world already, avoiding its influence and deathknolls is nearly impossible.
For me, capitalism is how private wealthy groups justify selling affluent twats plastic crap.
Capitalism is the only way a person can accumulate and withhold resources from the commons and get away with it.
Amoral and spoiled consumers with no sense of value and equity quite blindly prop up capitalistic interests, resulting in a surrounding worldwide disaster.
Capitalism is not realistic, its infinite goal of wealth requires that millions of people lose.
I'm not advocating for a state monopoly to maintain our standard of living.
I'm advocating as a replacement for capitalism a polyphonus structure of guilds, unmotivated by profit, freely organized, based in science to advance all of humanity out of wage slavery.

[neutrinox]

edit:  As far as socialism & communism bringing about awful living conditions:  What are you basing this on?  

Isn't it quite obvious: just about every socialist country there has been trough out history. The Soviet Union, east European countries, DDR, Cuba, Mao's China... And of course the lovely North Korea for a nice current example. Let me ask you the opposite: where has socialism or communism ever worked to create a country that is better off than capitalist countries?

Can we talk about Scandanavia?

Haha yes because scandinavian countries are so socialist  

I happen to live in Finland just so you know.

[Malawi]

edit:  As far as socialism & communism bringing about awful living conditions:  What are you basing this on?  

Isn't it quite obvious: just about every socialist country there has been trough out history. The Soviet Union, east European countries, DDR, Cuba, Mao's China... And of course the lovely North Korea for a nice current example. Let me ask you the opposite: where has socialism or communism ever worked to create a country that is better off than capitalist countries?

Can we talk about Scandanavia?

I live in Norway which is a mixed economy. Please tell.

[ktttn]

edit:  As far as socialism & communism bringing about awful living conditions:  What are you basing this on?  

Isn't it quite obvious: just about every socialist country there has been trough out history. The Soviet Union, east European countries, DDR, Cuba, Mao's China... And of course the lovely North Korea for a nice current example. Let me ask you the opposite: where has socialism or communism ever worked to create a country that is better off than capitalist countries?

Can we talk about Scandanavia?

I live in Norway which is a mixed economy. Please tell.

NO U

[ktttn]

edit:  As far as socialism & communism bringing about awful living conditions:  What are you basing this on?  

Isn't it quite obvious: just about every socialist country there has been trough out history. The Soviet Union, east European countries, DDR, Cuba, Mao's China... And of course the lovely North Korea for a nice current example. Let me ask you the opposite: where has socialism or communism ever worked to create a country that is better off than capitalist countries?

Can we talk about Scandanavia?

Haha yes because scandinavian countries are so socialist  

I happen to live in Finland just so you know.

No srsly. Talk about your experience with capitalism, socialism statism et al.

[ktttn]

Market law.

Is this what its like to not know what a state is?
 

[Malawi]

edit:  As far as socialism & communism bringing about awful living conditions:  What are you basing this on?  

Isn't it quite obvious: just about every socialist country there has been trough out history. The Soviet Union, east European countries, DDR, Cuba, Mao's China... And of course the lovely North Korea for a nice current example. Let me ask you the opposite: where has socialism or communism ever worked to create a country that is better off than capitalist countries?

Can we talk about Scandanavia?

I live in Norway which is a mixed economy. Please tell.

NO U

NO U?

I think you should elaborate a bit more.

[ktttn]

edit:  As far as socialism & communism bringing about awful living conditions:  What are you basing this on?  

Isn't it quite obvious: just about every socialist country there has been trough out history. The Soviet Union, east European countries, DDR, Cuba, Mao's China... And of course the lovely North Korea for a nice current example. Let me ask you the opposite: where has socialism or communism ever worked to create a country that is better off than capitalist countries?

Can we talk about Scandanavia?

I live in Norway which is a mixed economy. Please tell.

NO U

NO U?

I think you should elaborate a bit more.

Please tell. Wanted to hear about scandinavian economies.
Sup with the whole importing trash thing?
People buying trash intrigues me.

[crumbcake]

edit:  As far as socialism & communism bringing about awful living conditions:  What are you basing this on?  

Isn't it quite obvious: just about every socialist country there has been trough out history. The Soviet Union, east European countries, DDR, Cuba, Mao's China... And of course the lovely North Korea for a nice current example. Let me ask you the opposite: where has socialism or communism ever worked to create a country that is better off than capitalist countries?

Can we talk about Scandanavia?

I live in Norway which is a mixed economy. Please tell.

NO U

NO U?

I think you should elaborate a bit more.

Please tell. Wanted to hear about scandinavian economies.
Sup with the whole importing trash thing?
People buying trash intrigues me.

Zhang Yin, according to Forbes the richest woman in China in 2006 & currently worth US$4.6 billion, "...buys scrap paper from the United States, imports it into China, and mainly turns it into cardboard for use in boxes to export Chinese goods. The company is China's biggest paper maker." --WikiP

[ktttn]

edit:  As far as socialism & communism bringing about awful living conditions:  What are you basing this on?  

Isn't it quite obvious: just about every socialist country there has been trough out history. The Soviet Union, east European countries, DDR, Cuba, Mao's China... And of course the lovely North Korea for a nice current example. Let me ask you the opposite: where has socialism or communism ever worked to create a country that is better off than capitalist countries?

Can we talk about Scandanavia?

I live in Norway which is a mixed economy. Please tell.

NO U

NO U?

I think you should elaborate a bit more.

Please tell. Wanted to hear about scandinavian economies.
Sup with the whole importing trash thing?
People buying trash intrigues me.

Zhang Yin, according to Forbes the richest woman in China in 2006 & currently worth US$4.6 billion, "...buys scrap paper from the United States, imports it into China, and mainly turns it into cardboard for use in boxes to export Chinese goods. The company is China's biggest paper maker." --WikiP

Amazing.
Are you aware of examples of using trash in interesting ways within your region?

[Malawi]

Please tell. Wanted to hear about scandinavian economies.
Sup with the whole importing trash thing?
People buying trash intrigues me.

Not too much to tell really. Norway is attempting to use the best from capitalism and socialism. Taxes are fairly high and there are import walls on food. It's mainly built on oil and fish and have a lot of hydropower(and thus a bit of aluminum/fertilizer production - but this is declining). Some of the largest companies are publicly traded but with a majority of the shares are owned by the state.

We have a fund that is normally refered to as the "oil fund", that holds about $130K per inhabitant ATM (and rising) http://www.oljefondet.no/#/forside. It's mainly set to provide future pensions/healtcare when the oil dries up and there are more elderly people.

It works fairly well, but the last 10-15 years non-essential spendage have bloated to what would otherwise be unsubstainable levels. We also have issues with infastructure(mainly roads) that needs upgrading(the swedes have done much-much better). There is also true with many publicly founded buildings that lacks proper maintenance and thus have shorter lifespans than they should have. There seems to be a shift among politicians, and I hope there will be some trimming down on expenditure and focus on maintenance over cutting ribbons.

The health system is pretty good, but also have the problem with too much managing and too little efficiency. I hope we can learn a bit from finland at that point. Healthcare/social security is covered by a 7% tax on salaries(employee), and a 11% tax on salaries(employer) - Basically 18% total. That amount is not enough, and it's also supported by other taxes. But over time it's supposed to be covered by the specific tax and the oil-fund.

About the trash-thingy, I'm not quite sure what you are thinking of.
Quite a bit of the trash is sold to Sweden to become heat and electricity, plastic is mainly sold to germany. Paper is both recycled in Norway and exported to various EU countries, the remaining paper is burnt for heat and electricity in Norway or Sweden. Glass is recycled into insulation etc. mainly(or all?) in Norway. Metal goes into the world market and is used locally or exported.
BTW: We have a refund on all regular drinking bottles, you pay an extra fee when you buy the drink. You then get that fee back when returning the bottle. Not sure how many countries who does this, but it seems like it's a minority.

[crumbcake]

edit:  As far as socialism & communism bringing about awful living conditions:  What are you basing this on?  

Isn't it quite obvious: just about every socialist country there has been trough out history. The Soviet Union, east European countries, DDR, Cuba, Mao's China... And of course the lovely North Korea for a nice current example. Let me ask you the opposite: where has socialism or communism ever worked to create a country that is better off than capitalist countries?

Can we talk about Scandanavia?

I live in Norway which is a mixed economy. Please tell.

NO U

NO U?

I think you should elaborate a bit more.

Please tell. Wanted to hear about scandinavian economies.
Sup with the whole importing trash thing?
People buying trash intrigues me.

Zhang Yin, according to Forbes the richest woman in China in 2006 & currently worth US$4.6 billion, "...buys scrap paper from the United States, imports it into China, and mainly turns it into cardboard for use in boxes to export Chinese goods. The company is China's biggest paper maker." --WikiP

Amazing.
Are you aware of examples of using trash in interesting ways within your region?

If jumping into dumpsters with a screw gun & filling up waiting taxis with server racks counts, yes