Bitcoin Forum
May 09, 2024, 12:55:28 PM *
News: Latest Bitcoin Core release: 27.0 [Torrent]
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register More  
Warning: One or more bitcointalk.org users have reported that they strongly believe that the creator of this topic is a scammer. (Login to see the detailed trust ratings.) While the bitcointalk.org administration does not verify such claims, you should proceed with extreme caution.
Pages: « 1 2 3 [4] 5 6 »  All
  Print  
Author Topic: Ripple explained for Bitcoiners!  (Read 17637 times)
This is a self-moderated topic. If you do not want to be moderated by the person who started this topic, create a new topic.
yvv
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1344
Merit: 1000

.


View Profile WWW
May 20, 2013, 11:58:24 PM
 #61

Quote
Having lots of random validators doesn't help Ripple. Having reputable validators (where reputation is defined as "not colluding with a significant fraction of other validators) does.


Who decides who is a reputable validator and who is not?

I'm not exactly sure to be honest. One of the Ripple developers can probably explain it well.

But from my understanding, you want to make sure that you know who the validator is. They might have a domain, registered corporation, signed SSL key with company information, the company owners might maintain a public social networking profile, etc...

For example, I'm running a validator here:

http://opengroin.com

You can see my ripple.txt configuration file here:

http://opengroin.com/ripple.txt

I still have to get the SSL certificate and also form a corporation.

Even if a validator colludes, the worst they can do is deny users access to the network. They can't drain account balances or discover your private key.


What motivates a person or company to become a ripple validator? Do they make any profit of this activity?

.
1715259328
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1715259328

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1715259328
Reply with quote  #2

1715259328
Report to moderator
1715259328
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1715259328

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1715259328
Reply with quote  #2

1715259328
Report to moderator
1715259328
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1715259328

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1715259328
Reply with quote  #2

1715259328
Report to moderator
You can see the statistics of your reports to moderators on the "Report to moderator" pages.
Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction.
bg002h
Donator
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1463
Merit: 1047


I outlived my lifetime membership:)


View Profile WWW
May 20, 2013, 11:58:54 PM
 #62

misterbigg,

Are you affiliated with OpenCoin or any of their affiliates/subsidiaries?

No. I don't work for OpenCoin, they don't pay me, and I haven't received any compensation for my views (nor would I want to, for then I could not claim objectivity).

I do, however, hold a substantial quantity of both XRPs and Bitcoins. I'm equally bullish on both.



OpenCoin doesn't recommend using XRP as an investment...but that's what they're doing, right? I sold most of my free 35 kXRP for ฿2.5. Perhaps I'll regret that someday, but, OpenCoin won't get rich if we all invest in (and hoard) XRP!

Hardforks aren't that hard. It’s getting others to use them that's hard.
1GCDzqmX2Cf513E8NeThNHxiYEivU1Chhe
misterbigg (OP)
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1064
Merit: 1001



View Profile
May 21, 2013, 12:02:42 AM
 #63

What motivates a person or company to become a ripple validator? Do they make any profit of this activity?

There's no direct profit, this would create a conflict of interest. The wiki has a little more detail (not much though):

https://ripple.com/wiki/FAQ#Who_will_run_validating_nodes.3F
qxzn
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 609
Merit: 505



View Profile
May 21, 2013, 12:06:31 AM
 #64

what if I want to hold more than one type of USD IOU? Are you saying everyone should just use a single gateway? Surely there are valid reasons to trust more than one. For example, it becomes more convenient to deposit with a new bank, though you still hold an account at your previous bank.

I think trust lines have a "quality" setting, which is the ratio for converting between one type of IOU and another type of IOU. The client doesn't let you set it but you can issue a raw RPC command with JSON in it that sets it. I expect in the future this option will be provided.

I think this is right. It sounds a lot like what the OpenCoin guy in the booth told me. He said you can even move it all the way to zero (in both directions), effectively disabling all rippling through you.

Since there are risks involved with being a free liquidity provider, and no benefits (as far as I can see), I'm trying to understand what incentive I have to do anything other than dial this knob all the way down?

Quote
does ripple still work in practice if this default (free "liquidity providing") is switched to "off"?

I am not 100% certain but it would have to be implemented in a way that says "ignore everything but order books when computing paths." I believe Ripple would still work in practice with this change.


Interesting. Thanks for your insight.
misterbigg (OP)
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1064
Merit: 1001



View Profile
May 21, 2013, 12:09:15 AM
 #65

Since there are risks involved with being a free liquidity provider, and no benefits (as far as I can see), I'm trying to understand what incentive I have to do anything other than dial this knob all the way down?

Well you can adjust the knob in a way where you can charge people for rippling through you. For example, you exchange 1 A.BTC for 0.98 B.BTCs.

I agree with you, the default when creating a trust line should be to set the quality to zero. Would you like to open a Github issue? You can do it here:

https://github.com/rippleFoundation/ripple-client/issues?state=open

qxzn
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 609
Merit: 505



View Profile
May 21, 2013, 12:27:58 AM
 #66

Well you can adjust the knob in a way where you can charge people for rippling through you. For example, you exchange 1 A.BTC for 0.98 B.BTCs.

I guess, but with the default set to 100% quality, probably everyone would route around me and it's not worth the risk.

Quote
I agree with you, the default when creating a trust line should be to set the quality to zero. Would you like to open a Github issue? You can do it here:

https://github.com/rippleFoundation/ripple-client/issues?state=open


This misstep gives me some concern about OpenCoin's understanding of markets. Did they seriously not realize that liquidity providing is a risky business that demands payment to the liquidity provider?
dexX7
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1106
Merit: 1024



View Profile WWW
May 21, 2013, 01:31:02 AM
 #67

does ripple still work in practice if this default is switched to "off"?

Whether you "ripple" or not isn't an explicit setting in the client, nor should it be. Rippling happens when you extend trust to more than one issuer for the same type of currency. If you don't want to "ripple", don't extent trust twice for the same currency.

I opened an bug issue asking for an explicit warning in the client when you extend trust the second time:

https://github.com/rippleFoundation/ripple-client/issues/682


Well, trusting more than one issuer for the same currency turns yourself into a gateway.

I was thinking about a path like [trusted person] <-> [trusted person] <-> [trusted person] <-> [toxic villain], where the first person seems to have a trustful network from his point of view. It doesn't matter how many people there are who you trust, even if those trust a trustful person, who trusts a trustful person, who trusts a ..., ... if it only takes one untrustful person, to compromise the complete trustline/network?

Protagonus
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 238
Merit: 100



View Profile
May 21, 2013, 01:41:02 AM
 #68

Uhhh, reading your post brings up a few questions.  As I am not overly familiar with ripple;  glad I looked.


Quote
How the pre-mine work?  what is an xrp, in reality? who got 50B xrps?  so they hold all the Ripple "debt" ?

"XRP" (often confusing called "Ripples") is a crypto-currency that is built into the Ripple system. Like bitcoins  there can only ever be 100 billion of them, and they are divisible to many decimal places. Unlike bitcoins, they are not mined. Instead, the "genesis ledger" (this is similar to Bitcoin's genesis block) was created with 100 billion XRPs sitting inside an account whose private key is owned by the founders of the Ripple system.

Ripple uses XRPs to pay for transaction fees. The XRPs used to pay for transactions are destroyed (this might seem counter intuitive but trust me its the right thing to do). XRPs are also held as reserves in your account to allow you to do certain things. For example, in order to even create a Ripple account you need 50 XRPs to sit in there. XRPs used as reserves cannot be sent to any other account, but they can be used for transaction fees. Essentially once the XRPs are used as reserves they are "stuck" or "sequestered", unless the network decides reserve requirements should be lowered because they are too expensive.
......


Ok so here XRP is a currency.  I see 100 billion to start.
-that's the highest number of units for any currency (at start) in history correct?
-divisible by many decimals, would then be the most inflatable in history too, correct?
-I require this currency - to spend currency - and once used it's sequestered.  Isn't there an unnecessary extra step in here?



Quote
so the initial friends of opencoin get most of the initial rights to issue trust (debt) ?

XRPs are different from IOUs. XRPs are not debt. Anyone with a Ripple account can issue IOUs. The trick is getting people to accept your IOUs. Realistically speaking, only IOUs from a gateway will have any significant value or liquidity. Gateways are corporations with legal standing, and should be licensed and fully regulated in their jurisdiction. This is why you can hopefully trust their IOUs. Gateways also need to hold customers' funds on deposit.
......

First here, LOL
- Why would you call it a "trick" to get someone to accept this IOU?
- Gateways are corporations (e.g. banks and too big to fails);  EG same as the current monetary system, check.
- Gateways hold my funds, right, same as banks currently.......but why do I get an IOU instead of money like I can do now with current banking system?
- This sounds remarkably similar to the sales pitch used with derivatives that caused the housing market collapse, correct? 
(e.g a high value gateway (like AAA bank) could take on junk IOUS (like junk house mortgage) and all is well until .....)  <<assuming since this logic has manifested before, sure seems a breeding spot for it again.


Quote
How do I sell 1 btc for USD?  Is this possible with ripple?
                                                                             
Yes it is possible:
                                                                                                      COMPARISON TO CURRENT SYSTEM
                              RIPPLE                                                                                             BITCOIN
1) Open an account at a gateway (Bitstamp.net for example)                        1) Open a Mt Gox account
2) Deposit your BTC at the gateway                                                          2) Deposit BTC to Mt Gox
3) Withdraw the BTC as a BTC IOU in Ripple                                                3) Purchase USD with BTC order
4) In the Ripple client send a payment to yourself in USD                               4) Withdraw to bank account
    The client will show you the price, you can accept it or cancel
5) Deposit the USD back into the gateway
6) Withdraw the USD from the gateway to your bank account

Quote
It seems way too complex and not needed in any way.

Complex yes. And very much needed!

(comparison with current method above in red)

Yes I would agree complex and brings more questions.
- Why would I use a Gateway and Ripple middle man, making 2 more steps in this process?
- Doesn't this remove the "highly touted"  No-Middle-Man concept of BTC?
- This removes any "hightly touted" anonymity belong to BTC as well, correct?
- For attack vectors with ripple we have step 1,3,4,5,6  with current method we have step 2,4
- For Tracking points with ripple we have step 1,2,3,4,5,6 with current method we have step 2,4
- For seizure points with ripple we have step 2,3,5,6 with current method we have 2,4
I'm missing how this is improved.

Finally then, since all currencies are held by these gateways;  no individual actually owns anything correct?  EG at 100% market integration - 100% of the global value would be in the legal possession of these "corporation gateways", correct?

*If the goal would be to consolidate all buying power(currency physically owned) into corporations and remove all consumer buying power (while maintaining no legal recourse for recollection of this currency); then I guess I have no questions and DO understand.  In which case the above can be disregarded.

I may be off base with some of these questions; but these are what comes to my mind from reading your description. Sorry to be long, but I think that covers them all.
Thanks
misterbigg (OP)
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1064
Merit: 1001



View Profile
May 21, 2013, 02:09:16 AM
 #69

Well, trusting more than one issuer for the same currency turns yourself into a gateway.

Hmm...no. A gateway is an entity that self-issues currencies in the Ripple system.

Quote
if it only takes one untrustful person, to compromise the complete trustline/network?

No. Schwartz explained this elsewhere really well. Even if there is someone somewhere in the chain that you don't trust, all Ripple payments are atomic. They either go through completely, or fail. If it goes through, you get exactly the balance you asked for (or better). If it fails, no balances are changed.
misterbigg (OP)
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1064
Merit: 1001



View Profile
May 21, 2013, 02:27:54 AM
 #70

Ok so here XRP is a currency.  I see 100 billion to start.
-that's the highest number of units for any currency (at start) in history correct?
-divisible by many decimals, would then be the most inflatable in history too, correct?

The number of units doesn't really matter, as long as there are enough of them. I think they choose 100 billion because it fits into a 64-bit integer (100,000,000,000,000,000 including the fractional part)

Quote
-I require this currency - to spend currency - and once used it's sequestered.  Isn't there an unnecessary extra step in here?

Not really Right now it takes 50 xrp to fund an account. One Ripple is made up of 1,000,000 "drops". A transaction costs 10 drops to send. The 50 xrp that funds your account is sequestered. You can only use it to pay for transaction costs. If you had more than 50 xrp you could send the remainder elsewhere. For example if you had 70 xrp you could send 20 of it to a friend.

Quote
- Why would you call it a "trick" to get someone to accept this IOU?

Its not a trick in the "trick or treat" sense. What I mean, is that it is not a simple task. Getting other people to trust you requires effort. You need to show them that you can be trusted, and that there is a legal recourse if you don't honor your agreements. That's why anonymous gateways should be avoided at all costs.

Quote
- Gateways are corporations (e.g. banks and too big to fails);  EG same as the current monetary system, check.

It sounds like you're saying that all corporations are bad. That's certainly not the case. MtGox is a corporation, are they bad?

Quote
- Gateways hold my funds, right, same as banks currently.......but why do I get an IOU instead of money like I can do now with current banking system?

The "IOU" is a cryptographic token that can be passed around the Ripple network. In the current banking system there is no convenient way to transfer a balance out of your bank account to someone else. These are your choices:

1) Write them a check (physical, takes a few days, can't be automated)
2) Wire the money (takes a few days, expensive, can't be automated)
3) Withdraw cash and hand them the money (requires face to face, can't be automated)
4) ACH Transfer (one end has to be a business, costs a lot of money for regulatory compliance)

Unlike your bank balance, a Ripple balance can be sent through the decentralized peer to peer Ripple network in flexible ways. Ripple transactions take 2 to 20 seconds to "confirm." They are incredibly fast compared to bank methods. And they can be automated.

Quote
- This sounds remarkably similar to the sales pitch used with derivatives that caused the housing market collapse, correct? (e.g a high value gateway (like AAA bank) could take on junk IOUS (like junk house mortgage)

No. There are different kinds of "debt." When you deposit money at MtGox they "owe" you dollars, or bitcoins if you buy from their exchange. This is not a derivative - its a different form of IOU. Is a MtGox balance the same as a mortgage or collateralized debt obligation? I hope you don't think so!

Quote
- Why would I use a Gateway and Ripple middle man, making 2 more steps in this process?

Imagine if you could deposit your money at MtGox, but then send some of your USD balance to a friend. They could take that USD balance and buy Litecoins from BTC-e. Then they take those Litecoins and use them to pay a guy in China, who receives it as CNY (Yuan, China's native currency). This is what is possible with Ripple.

Here's another scenario: you open a Ripple-enabled checking account. Using your bank's online banking web page, you withdraw the dollars into the Ripple network and use it to purchase bitcoins at multiple gateways for the lowest price. Then you redeem the bitcoins into your bitcoin wallet. Or, you keep your bitcoins as a balance in your checking account and when you use your debit card, it sells just enough at market rates to pay for the charge.

Quote
Doesn't this remove the "highly touted"  No-Middle-Man concept of BTC?

Sort of. MtGox could be considered a middle man. Any time you want to sell your coins you need to trust someone, unless its a face to face exchange (and even then you have to make sure that they don't rob you).

Quote
- This removes any "hightly touted" anonymity belong to BTC as well, correct?

Like bitcoin, anonymity is not the default but it can be achieved to varying degrees of success with work.

Quote
Finally then, since all currencies are held by these gateways;  no individual actually owns anything correct?  EG at 100% market integration - 100% of the global value would be in the legal possession of these "corporation gateways", correct?

That's right. In theory, you could lose some or all of the entire amount that you are trusting to the gateway. This is why Ripple will not replace Bitcoin! When you need to reduce your counterparty risk to zero, you will use bitcoins. When you need to pay a bill in fiat, you can use Ripple to pay for it with your bitcoins. Ripple complements Bitcoin.

Until most people can live their lives paying all bills and receiving all income with Bitcoin exclusively, it will be necessary to interface with the traditional financial system. MtGox must interact with the fiat world, and most people need to interact with MtGox. Even Bit-Pay depends on MtGox, as well as most other Bitcoin payment processors. If you only buy things using Bitcoins, you are indirectly dependent on MtGox if your payment processor requires access to their liquidity.

For as long as Bitcoin exchanges are needed, Ripple will be a superior solution. If we can get rid of all the Bitcoin exchanges and still have a well functioning economy, then it might be possible to live completely without the need for trust. I don't see this happening in the forseeable future though.

Quote
I may be off base with some of these questions; but these are what comes to my mind from reading your description.

Yep, I understand where you are coming from. Given the current global economic situation, it is totally legitimate to be concerned when hearing the words "trust", "debt", "IOUs", and "licensed, regulated gateways" in Ripple's description. Ripple doesn't prevent the problem of government seizing funds at a gateway. But it is an improvement over the current banking system. And it enhances the value of Bitcoin.
Protagonus
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 238
Merit: 100



View Profile
May 21, 2013, 03:05:40 AM
 #71

Thank you for your time to answer my questions as it has helped and I'll watch the progression of ripple for a bit.

In terms of my thoughts of corporations; yes I'm not fond of them.  However, I do limit this to say fortune 500; or specifically the 200 identified @ 97%.  If these 200 were the final gateways, whew!
So just corporations with minimum cash "influence" thresholds.

with with the 50 xrp for funding and drop transaction cost.  It would seem this 50 startup would last quite a long time then, if I understand.

I note at the lower end you mention "If we can get rid of all the Bitcoin exchanges and still have a well functioning economy....."

How would the pricing for BTC be determined then?  By the gateway's correct?

Thanks again for the help with my questions.  I DO agree  nice system is needed to facilitate easy utilization and transactions of BTC via multiple methods.  Guess I'm still on the side of BTC = commodity, but open as times goes by.
Pzi4nk
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 70
Merit: 10


Move over clarinets, I'm getting on the band wagon


View Profile
May 21, 2013, 03:17:15 AM
 #72

Quote
misterbigg
Here's another scenario: you open a Ripple-enabled checking account.

How is this possible? Where do you open a Ripple-enabled checking account?
misterbigg (OP)
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1064
Merit: 1001



View Profile
May 21, 2013, 03:22:43 AM
 #73

How is this possible? Where do you open a Ripple-enabled checking account?

Well, we hope that one day a bank will operate as a gateway. Hasn't happened yet.
Rassah
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1680
Merit: 1035



View Profile WWW
May 21, 2013, 03:43:35 AM
 #74

Is there a Compare/Contrast between Ripple and OpenTransactions? They seem to be doing the same thing.
N12
Donator
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1610
Merit: 1010



View Profile
May 21, 2013, 03:46:58 AM
 #75

misterbigg is busy deleting posts of ppl like me.
You can come over to my non-censored (no self-moderation) thread, cypher: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=211596.0
misterbigg (OP)
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1064
Merit: 1001



View Profile
May 21, 2013, 03:47:37 AM
 #76

misterbigg is busy deleting posts of ppl like me.
You can come over to my non-censored (no self-moderation) thread, cypher: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=211596.0

There are plenty of other places for inflammatory talk and personal attacks - this isn't one of them!
jgarzik
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1596
Merit: 1091


View Profile
May 21, 2013, 04:18:59 AM
 #77

Even though I already knew all this, I forwarded this to reddit because it seemed quite readable and accessible to others.

Standard disclaimer:  mention does not constitute endorsement.  Smiley  I just believe in widely sharing all knowledge.

 

Jeff Garzik, Bloq CEO, former bitcoin core dev team; opinions are my own.
Visit bloq.com / metronome.io
Donations / tip jar: 1BrufViLKnSWtuWGkryPsKsxonV2NQ7Tcj
misterbigg (OP)
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1064
Merit: 1001



View Profile
May 21, 2013, 04:24:06 AM
 #78

Is there a Compare/Contrast between Ripple and OpenTransactions? They seem to be doing the same thing.

I don't know Open Transactions very well but my guess is that during Ripple's development, they made different choices at key decision-making points from the ones Open Transactions made. As a result, they were able to produce a viable system whereas Open Transactions still has unsolved problems. This is mostly theory though...I haven't worked with OT much. I just read a few of the papers.
Pzi4nk
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 70
Merit: 10


Move over clarinets, I'm getting on the band wagon


View Profile
May 21, 2013, 04:32:06 AM
 #79

How is this possible? Where do you open a Ripple-enabled checking account?

Well, we hope that one day a bank will operate as a gateway. Hasn't happened yet.

Okay, got it. You had me excited for a minute.
slothbag
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 369
Merit: 250



View Profile
May 21, 2013, 04:37:02 AM
 #80

Great thread misterbigg!  You have objectively outlined all the facts about Ripple in a friendly and easy to read manner.  The other Ripple threads are good for a laugh though.

I don't know Open Transactions very well but my guess is that during Ripple's development, they made different choices at key decision-making points from the ones Open Transactions made. As a result, they were able to produce a viable system whereas Open Transactions still has unsolved problems. This is mostly theory though...I haven't worked with OT much. I just read a few of the papers.

The problem with Open Transaction is that it is confusing as all hell, and the software is nearly impossible to set up and run.  I'm fairly techie and after numerous attempts have still yet been able to install and run OT.  Even when the software loads I cant figure out how it works.

FellowTraveller has stated that he wishes other users to pick up the OT library and develop other software with it, but it really needs an easy to use GUI to showcase its potential ( I think there is even a bounty for it).

I'm very optimistic for the future, with the triple threat of Bitcoin, Ripple and OT we have the toolsets to become the worlds new financial standards.  Its funny with all these pro-bitcoin, pro-ripple threads going on, at the end of the day it doesn't really matter who says what, if Ripple brings a benefit it will flourish just like Bitcoin did in the face of extreme derision.
Pages: « 1 2 3 [4] 5 6 »  All
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!