CoinGator

[SystemDisc]

Randomly pulling "180 days" out of the PayPal terms of service as it applies to account closures and suggesting that somehow it applies to payment reversals seems to me misguided or maybe even a bit disingenuous.

No..... 180 days is how long a PayPal user has, merchant or otherwise, to issue a chargeback. It's not a random number. So far my feedback and experience has been positive. I will let others know within or at 180 days after my transaction if that changes.

[whereismymoney13]

Are you guys a registered MSB?

[gektek]

I use another site and their minimum is .3 btc and their maximum is 10 btc. What is your minimum?

ty ty!

[Maged]

Matthew, you have no idea what you're talking about. This business is completely different from the businesses that sell people bitcoins for PayPal, which this business does not do. That being said, this business still needs to register with PayPal's legal department, since the buying or selling of currency is against PayPal's terms of use, even when chargebacks are impossible. Check the fastcash4bitcoin thread for how they did that. You will also want to register with FinCEN as a MSB, as per their guidelines.

[Matthew N. Wright]

Matthew, you have no idea what you're talking about. This business is completely different from the businesses that sell people bitcoins for PayPal

You must be confused. No where have I mentioned any companies that sell "Bitcoins for Paypal" (which would not be a risk to anyone but the service owners). They are selling Paypal and receiving bitcoin.

Coingator is a new Bitcoin exchange service. We are currently in Phase II (Beta) stage of operations. During phase II our focus will be on efficiently conducting Bitcoin to PayPal transactions. Then over time we will be introducing additional transaction options.

On the main page enter the amount of Bitcoins you want to sell. Then below that field enter the address were you'd like to receive the confirmation email. To the right of that field enter the email address of the PayPal account to send the funds. The email addresses can be the same or different.

People are sending CoinGator their bitcoins (which they can never get back) and receiving Paypal in exchange for them (which the company can reverse at their will later. What exactly have I said they're doing that's different from that that would cause you to think I "don't know what I'm talking about"? I can only assume you either misunderstood my posts or haven't read their website yet.

[Matthew N. Wright]

It wouldn't matter if they registered with FinCEN or not, what they're doing (and what anyone does who uses Paypal in combination with Bitcoin) is violating section 3.h of the terms of use:

You may not use the PayPal service for activities that:

(h) involve currency exchanges or check cashing businesses

FinCEN has classified Bitcoin as a digital currency. Exchanging it is against Paypal's TOS. Wake the fuck up already, your account is going to be frozen the same as everyone elses' has and I'm going to hate saying "I told you so", but it is apparent to me you don't care at all about your business and are probably a scam. (Any serious business would have done research, read TOS, and listened to the criticisms and not just the "positive support".

EDIT: Also, Gweedo seems to be going overboard with the whole "prison" threat, but actually it's true. Read all about the felony of operating a money transfer business or currency exchange without being licensed in your state first.

13. 18 U.S.C.A. § 1960 (West 2000 & Supp. 2007).
Prohibition of unlicensed money transmitting businesses
(a) Whoever knowingly conducts, controls, manages, supervises, directs, or owns all or part of an
unlicensed money transmitting business, shall be fined in accordance with this title or imprisoned
not more than 5 years, or both.

Keep in mind, this is all an aside as the main point here is that your business model is unhealthy for you and downright dangerous for anyone trying to sell their bitcoins for paypal (because you can easily rip them off with chargebacks up to 180 days after sending them the payment). I digress:

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[gektek]

hmm...posted (what I thought was) a valid question about 12 hours ago and posts have been made since then but none to answer my (seemingly) simple question. Seems I'm be sticking with my current service... http://coin2pal.info

[IamRichard]

Thanks for the timers. But they are heavy on effect and light on substance.

Randomly pulling "180 days" out of the PayPal terms of service as it applies to account closures and suggesting that somehow it applies to payment reversals seems to me misguided or maybe even a bit disingenuous.

Currently our greatest challenge is bearing the numerous compliance/regulatory costs recently imposed upon the industry. We have recently hired a legal consulting firm and are working with various licensing agencies to ensure we are in full compliance as our long term goal is to provide a reliable and invaluable service to the bitcoin community.

We appreciate those of you with words of encouragement, and thank you all for your business and support.

lol

aka

doing nothing

I feel bad for Matt, hes the one here trying to shine light on to an obvious shady business.
But what can I say, if you're too dumb to realize whats going on here, you deserve to be scammed.

[gektek]

I use another site and their minimum is .3 btc and their maximum is 10 btc. What is your minimum?

ty ty!

The minimum is $1.00 USD. Thank you.

ooo ty ty! Seems odd timing that I post the site I usually use in this thread and suddenly they will be down for maintenance for 2 weeks. Anywho, that prompted me to give your service a go. For the neigh sayers...

Started a transaction around 11:30am Pacific time for 0.1 btc which would result in $12.13 sent to my PayPal account. Roughly 30 minutes after initial start of transaction money was deposited into PayPal. So...so far so good. Guess we'll see how bigger/future transactions go. Anybody else try it out yet?

ty ty btw CoinGator!

[Matthew N. Wright]

Roughly 30 minutes after initial start of transaction money was deposited into PayPal.

Now you've only got to wait 180 days to see if they scammed you!

[gektek]

Roughly 30 minutes after initial start of transaction money was deposited into PayPal.

Now you've only got to wait 180 days to see if they scammed you!

It's always hard to trust ventures like this...but if nobody took any risks bitcoins wouldn't be where they are today. I'm ok with getting my feet wet from time to time

[Matthew N. Wright]

Roughly 30 minutes after initial start of transaction money was deposited into PayPal.

Now you've only got to wait 180 days to see if they scammed you!

It's always hard to trust ventures like this...but if nobody took any risks bitcoins wouldn't be where they are today. I'm ok with getting my feet wet from time to time

That's like saying "Cars wouldn't be anywhere where they are today if people didn't take the risk of driving around without a seatbelt."

Yes, that's true. And now there are seatbelts. What's your excuse for not wearing one or excusing a car company that makes a car without one?

There is just as much room for another Paypal>BTC company as there is for a car company that makes family cars without seatbelts (and equally few excuses for it).

[gektek]

Roughly 30 minutes after initial start of transaction money was deposited into PayPal.

Now you've only got to wait 180 days to see if they scammed you!

It's always hard to trust ventures like this...but if nobody took any risks bitcoins wouldn't be where they are today. I'm ok with getting my feet wet from time to time

That's like saying "Cars wouldn't be anywhere where they are today if people didn't take the risk of driving around without a seatbelt."

Yes, that's true. And now there are seatbelts. What's your excuse for not wearing one or excusing a car company that makes a car without one?

There is just as much room for another Paypal>BTC company as there is for a car company that makes family cars without seatbelts (and equally few excuses for it).

You're right...there is plenty of room for other companies...but what is your point? I had even mentioned a few posts back that the usual service I use ( http://coin2pal.info ) is down for maintenance for the next two weeks so basically CoinGator has 2 weeks to convince me to use their service instead of the one I have a long history with. So again...what is your point? Or is CoinGator just another one of your troll targets? Because I've re-read your reply above a few times now and other than getting me to post another reply, hence continuing your pointless trolling, I really see no other point so... Are you a troll bro? Or did you just have charge back issues in your past and will forever be butt hurt by it? Because I really don't see what benefit CoinGater would receive by going through the crazy long and involved process of doing a charge back with my $12.13 ...? Or maybe they will pick and choose and only charge back on the big orders? Which they'd only be able to do what? Once? Maybe twice? Before PayPal steps in and goes NOPE and puts a freeze on their account. I've been a business member with PayPal for around 10 years...maybe more. I think my $12.13 is safe so...unless you have something constructive to add like an actual example of these people doing illicit business, why not go elsewhere and let these guys run their business in peace. Just sayin...

[Matthew N. Wright]

Your rationalizing the dangers by saying "only $12". Quaint.

[gektek]

Your rationalizing the dangers by saying "only $12". Quaint.

Nope...that's just me being poor so I has tiny mining rig and that was all the coin I had. So 'technically' that was a rather large investment for me...

...yet still no examples? Trollololololol

[Matthew N. Wright]

no examples?

If you're looking for examples, use the forum's search function. If you're looking for examples specific to this fresh-out-of-newbie-jail account, come back in

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[gektek]

HAHAHAHAHA...I see what you did there You should go to that one btc betting site and start a wager saying CoinGater will take my $12 in 175 days... ...so I can go bet against ya and make another $12 Or be proven wrong...who knows...either way trolling a thread isn't going to scare people away from a service...it is actually what made me use their service just so I could post a note saying "SEE!". So I'll go ahead and take my $12 to IHop and have myself a nice meal and you can continue to troll other satisfied customers and we'll see what we see in 175 days

edit: aww...you changed part of your message so I have to as well. I've seen PLENTY of scams in my time on this board...and all of them were pretty easy to spot right away. This one...doesn't seem like a scam to me so I tried it and what do ya know...so far so good. But I'm trying to figure out why you are so adamantly saying its a scam without showing any other proof other than "check the forums"...? Leave em alone or show proof...simple simple no?

[Matthew N. Wright]

This one...doesn't seem like a scam to me

You wouldn't know it's a scam until the timer has run down.

so I tried it and what do ya know...so far so good.

Look up "long con" for more answers to your hypothetical excuses.

But I'm trying to figure out why you are so adamantly saying its a scam

I'm not sure if English is your first language or not, but I've never said they were a scam nor did I say they were scammers. I gave them opportunities to explain and learn, they've taken that opportunity to spam their broken business model popular among scammers instead. You can draw whatever conclusion you want, my conclusions so far have only been based on fact. Instead of clogging up the thread with your own misconceptions, go back and read the thread again because I feel like I'll only be repeating myself again and again.

[crazylikeafox]

For anyone truly concerned about PayPal chargebacks with a system like this, it's relatively simple to avoid.  

1) Create a new PayPal account you use only for interaction with this or any other PayPal-based service you consider to be high risk.  For the truly paranoid, create a virtual machine (I use VMWare) that is only used for accessing this account, and install AOL desktop on that virtual machine.  When you start AOL desktop, the virtual machine will access the internet over your existing connection, but will have an AOL IP address that has nothing to do with your normal IP.  You can even verify that you have an AOL IP by going to http://whatismyipaddress.com .  This makes it impossible for PayPal to tie the account to any other account, regardless of any tracking mechanisms they may use.

2) Buy a reloadable debit card (I prefer netspend).  These come with a virtual checking account - a routing number and checking account number you can use for direct deposit and for paypal transfers.  But, they are only one way - PP can't ever debit these virtual accounts.

3) Verify the virtual checking account with PP, and register the card itself as a credit card on that PP account.

4) When you have money come in, transfer it to your virtual "checking account".  This adds to your card's balance, and then you can take the money off the card via ATM when the money hits.

PP will have no way to clawback the money, even if the transactions go bad.  Though the numerous jailhouse lawyers in here will dispute it, there is nothing illegal about this.  Keeping PayPal at arms length is always a good idea, no matter what you are doing with them.

Now, at about this point, all of the many legal scholars in here will say "but they could sue!".  First, PayPal may very well refuse to process requested chargebacks for a company that all of a sudden tries to dispute every transaction they have conducted months after the fact.  People Like Matthew N. Right don't really get that PayPal is run by people that see this type of behavior every day.  If this happened, the chargebacks would almost certainly be denied and the company referred to law enforcement for attempting to defraud both Paypal and their recipients.  Second, on the off-chance that PP let these abusive chargebacks through, lawyers - the ones with actual degrees (not to be confused with those posting in this thread) - cost $400/hr+. Because of the cost and the potential that rulings in such lawsuits can set precedents that invalidate parts of their user agreement that could cost them millions, Paypal rarely sues over funds owed from transactions that they allowed to be reversed.  Unless the case is a slam-dunk for them and both the amount owed and the resources of the potential defendant were great enough to offset the litigation cost, they won't engage.  On the rare occasions that they have sued, with perhaps one or two exceptions involving very large amounts of money, they have sued the business involved and not the end user.  You have a vastly better chance of being hit by lightning than suffering a loss from a PP transaction where you followed through on your end of the deal if you use the above steps.

Pedantic arguments aside, if you aren't stupid, dealing with this or any other service can be as close to risk-free as dealing with anyone in the real world allows.

[Matthew N. Wright]

So basically your job in this thread is to spread FUD and hope people get tired of repeating the truth. You must not know me very well. Responded to your list for you.

1) Create a new PayPal account you use only for interaction with this or any other PayPal-based service you consider to be high risk.  For the truly paranoid, create a virtual machine (I use VMWare) that is only used for accessing this account, and install AOL desktop on that virtual machine.  When you start AOL desktop, the virtual machine will access the internet over your existing connection, but will have an AOL IP address that has nothing to do with your normal IP.  You can even verify that you have an AOL IP by going to http://whatismyipaddress.com .  This makes it impossible for PayPal to tie the account to any other account, regardless of any tracking mechanisms they may use.

Right, last time I signed up for Paypal, it asked me for my IP only and had no idea what my name, address, phone number, etc was.

You're actually recommending people make a fraudulent account that cannot be verified and risk losing *all* their money. Why would anyone take any advice from you after that point?

2) Buy a reloadable debit card (I prefer netspend).  These come with a virtual checking account - a routing number and checking account number you can use for direct deposit and for paypal transfers.  But, they are only one way - PP can't ever debit these virtual accounts.

This used to work back in 2009 and is thus plastered all over hacker forums as the "scammer solution" (which is probably where you found it). Paypal has actually partnered with NETSPEND since then, and here is what Paypal has to say about using NETSPEND to verify your accounts:

The NetSpend Cards cannot be used to either verify a PayPal account, or send money to a PayPal account. This is a PayPal policy. I apologize for any inconvenience this may cause.

3) Verify the virtual checking account with PP, and register the card itself as a credit card on that PP account.

See above.

PP will have no way to clawback the money, even if the transactions go bad.  Though the numerous jailhouse lawyers in here will dispute it, there is nothing illegal about this.  Keeping PayPal at arms length is always a good idea, no matter what you are doing with them.

Your advice is literally misleading people to create fraudulent accounts and you're here to try and convince me that something isn't a scam. Why don't you stop spreading FUD and just wait like the rest of us for the clock to tick down so we can all see if CoinGator is a scam or not instead of professing that they aren't and misleading people into thinking they can ever, ever be protected from Paypal (the company takes money from bank accounts without permission on a regular basis).