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Author Topic: TradeFortress VERY untrustworthy, owes me 10.15 BTC, possibly others.  (Read 5404 times)
webr3
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May 20, 2013, 06:21:02 PM
 #1

TradeFortress owes me 10.15 BTC.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=206948.msg2209470 onwards.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=210634
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May 20, 2013, 06:40:38 PM
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Didn't he say, he'll send you 10.15 BTC to your Bitcoin address? And after you declined that, he sent you IOUs?

I'm not taking a side here, but that's what I remember from the other thread.

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May 20, 2013, 08:47:46 PM
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Didn't he say, he'll send you 10.15 BTC to your Bitcoin address? And after you declined that, he sent you IOUs?

I'm not taking a side here, but that's what I remember from the other thread.

Yes, he took it from me once, sent it back, then took it again.
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May 20, 2013, 09:06:23 PM
 #4

Followed up on the public ripple ledger.

Shortly after he initially sent the BTC back to me, he sent one of his IOUs for 15BTC to bitcointalk user aadje93 ripple address rMyHUbgreHFvvxoD5pGmg1fKRdSBHisy39 who then immediately withdrew 9.15 BTC to bitstamp.

See https://ripple.com/graph/#rH3bZsvVUhzugvcYuJVoSYCEMHkfK6wHNv


Mods: please check the IPs of this user aadje93 to see if it's the same as TradeFortress.

The other 1 BTC was done as a test by a member who said they'd be happy to it back to me, even though they don't owe it, tradefortress does.
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May 20, 2013, 10:15:10 PM
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I was going to write a response to this, but my time is better spent on other things, unlike you which seems to be concerned with losing money to people I gave IOUs to because you want me to honor IOUs on Ripple which I have not said I will honor.

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May 20, 2013, 10:46:06 PM
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I was going to write a response to this, but my time is better spent on other things, unlike you which seems to be concerned with losing money to people I gave IOUs to because you want me to honor IOUs on Ripple which I have not said I will honor.

I didn't loose any money to any IOUs. You asked for my trust and I gave it to you, you then broke that trust by taking my BTC, giving it to other people, then refusing to pay it back.

You personally have broken trust, you personally have taken BTC from me and given it to other people, or to yourself through a secondary account, or after knowing what would happen, immediately issued an IOU to an all but unknown user who then immediately withdrew the BTC to blockchain.

Any way you play it, you owe me 10.15 BTC, 9.15 BTC I'll call you out for, and you proved yourself VERY untrustworthy.
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May 20, 2013, 10:54:10 PM
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I was going to write a response to this, but my time is better spent on other things, unlike you which seems to be concerned with losing money to people I gave IOUs to because you want me to honor IOUs on Ripple which I have not said I will honor.

I didn't loose any money to any IOUs. You asked for my trust and I gave it to you, you then broke that trust by taking my BTC, giving it to other people, then refusing to pay it back.


Unless you can explain to me how I am wrong, that is not what happened.  Tradefortress did not take your BTC, Ripple did.   And Ripple gave the BTC to someone else other then Tradefortress, or am I wrong?

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May 20, 2013, 10:56:53 PM
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You are taking that vendetta of yours too a little too far.

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May 20, 2013, 11:03:48 PM
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Didn't he say, he'll send you 10.15 BTC to your Bitcoin address? And after you declined that, he sent you IOUs?

I'm not taking a side here, but that's what I remember from the other thread.

Yes, he took it from me once, sent it back, then took it again.

You... Probably should have offered that bitcoin address and taken payment to an actual bitcoin client rather than accepted more crap Ripple IOUs.

Whether TradeFortress is honest or not his shennanigans reveal Ripple is a tremendous security vulnerability for anyone who uses it, unless you use an utterly paranoid set of precautions that have yet to be worked out.

The key issue here is that if you have TradeFortress IOUs and BitStamp IOUs, other people with TradeFortress IOUs might be able to redeem their TradeFortress IOUs for your BitStamp IOUs with no action from TradeFortress required other than spreading IOUs around and building a web of people who trust him.

Until you divorce from the TradeFortress Ripple BTC trust network, any actual value BTC vouchers you might have are vulnerable. If he offers to send back again, take actual BTC and then lockdown your Ripple trust before you try to put anything of value back into the Ripple system.

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May 20, 2013, 11:07:15 PM
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I was going to write a response to this, but my time is better spent on other things, unlike you which seems to be concerned with losing money to people I gave IOUs to because you want me to honor IOUs on Ripple which I have not said I will honor.

I didn't loose any money to any IOUs. You asked for my trust and I gave it to you, you then broke that trust by taking my BTC, giving it to other people, then refusing to pay it back.


Unless you can explain to me how I am wrong, that is not what happened.  Tradefortress did not take your BTC, Ripple did.   And Ripple gave the BTC to someone else other then Tradefortress, or am I wrong?

TradeFortress understood the system.

He asked me to extend trust for 100 BTC to him, I did. He then (after!) created an IOU to another user (possibly himself) for 15 BTC, knowing full well it that user could withdraw the BTC to blockchain, which in turn created 9.15 BTC debt with me.

If you take out an overdraft with a bank, then write a cheque to another person using that account, and that person cashes the cheque, who is responsible for the debt? You are. It is exactly the same, TradeFortress took a 100 BTC overdraft out with me and 20+ other users. Then wrote a cheque (and IOU) to another user, who cashed it in.

He took 10.15 BTC from me, gave 1 BTC of it to a user who offered it back to me as they did it for a test, then 9.15 BTC after that to a user who is most likely a secondary account of his own, or a complete newb who he issued the IOU to knowing full well it'd be cashed immediately, for 15 BTC not his standard 1 BTC.
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May 20, 2013, 11:09:54 PM
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Whether TradeFortress is honest or not his shennanigans reveal Ripple is a tremendous security vulnerability for anyone who uses it, unless you use an utterly paranoid set of precautions that have yet to be worked out.

Bullshit, it's only when the participants do not understand the concept of trust. By that logic pirateat40 revealed a tremendous security vulnerability too.

From the immortal Dumb and Dumber "Were in a hole... We just gotta dig ourselves out"
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May 20, 2013, 11:11:45 PM
 #12

Didn't he say, he'll send you 10.15 BTC to your Bitcoin address? And after you declined that, he sent you IOUs?

I'm not taking a side here, but that's what I remember from the other thread.

Yes, he took it from me once, sent it back, then took it again.

You... Probably should have offered that bitcoin address and taken payment to an actual bitcoin client rather than accepted more crap Ripple IOUs.

Whether TradeFortress is honest or not his shennanigans reveal Ripple is a tremendous security vulnerability for anyone who uses it, unless you use an utterly paranoid set of precautions that have yet to be worked out.

The key issue here is that if you have TradeFortress IOUs and BitStamp IOUs, other people with TradeFortress IOUs might be able to redeem their TradeFortress IOUs for your BitStamp IOUs with no action from TradeFortress required other than spreading IOUs around and building a web of people who trust him.

Until you divorce from the TradeFortress Ripple BTC trust network, any actual value BTC vouchers you might have are vulnerable. If he offers to send back again, take actual BTC and then lockdown your Ripple trust before you try to put anything of value back into the Ripple system.

Of course, this is exactly what would happen, and was the goal of TradeFortress all along. I allowed it to happen, it's how the system works, I allowed him to incur debt for bitstamp-backed btc, as he asked. He then gave that BTC to a random unknown user that popped up immediately after (suspicious!)

It is no security vulnerability in Ripple though, it's just an abuse of trust by TradeFortress, plain and simple.

I use ripple daily, have done for ages, never had any problem, and I only trust gateways that have my BTC and other currencies anyway, or people I know very well.
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May 20, 2013, 11:25:41 PM
 #13

Whether TradeFortress is honest or not his shennanigans reveal Ripple is a tremendous security vulnerability for anyone who uses it, unless you use an utterly paranoid set of precautions that have yet to be worked out.

Bullshit, it's only when the participants do not understand the concept of trust. By that logic pirateat40 revealed a tremendous security vulnerability too.
Yes, but pirate didnt say, I am taking your money and not giving it back. 

Tradefortress said that here is an IOU I WILL NOT HONOR. 

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May 20, 2013, 11:29:42 PM
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Whether TradeFortress is honest or not his shennanigans reveal Ripple is a tremendous security vulnerability for anyone who uses it, unless you use an utterly paranoid set of precautions that have yet to be worked out.

Bullshit, it's only when the participants do not understand the concept of trust. By that logic pirateat40 revealed a tremendous security vulnerability too.
Yes, but pirate didnt say, I am taking your money and not giving it back. 

Tradefortress said that here is an IOU I WILL NOT HONOR. 

TradeFortress took direct actions to ensure that IOUs were honored, that is why he asked for the trust from the users, so that they would be honored, in a way that meant he personally incurred the debt with users who sent trust to him.

Only one user took 1 BTC, as a test, and offered it back to me.

*AFTER* that TradeFortress sent one of his IOUs for 15BTC to bitcointalk user aadje93 ripple address rMyHUbgreHFvvxoD5pGmg1fKRdSBHisy39 who then immediately withdrew 9.15 BTC to bitstamp.

See https://ripple.com/graph/#rH3bZsvVUhzugvcYuJVoSYCEMHkfK6wHNv

TradeFortress personally took these actions AFTER the entire thing was proved and tested, he issued a IOU to the above user so they could take the BTC he sent to them, the BTC he took from me.

It doesn't matter if he said he would not honor them, he took all the actions needed to honor them, they did get honored, and he incurred that debt with me.
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May 20, 2013, 11:31:47 PM
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Whether TradeFortress is honest or not his shennanigans reveal Ripple is a tremendous security vulnerability for anyone who uses it, unless you use an utterly paranoid set of precautions that have yet to be worked out.

Bullshit, it's only when the participants do not understand the concept of trust. By that logic pirateat40 revealed a tremendous security vulnerability too.
Yes, but pirate didnt say, I am taking your money and not giving it back.  

Tradefortress said that here is an IOU I WILL NOT HONOR.  

In a sense IOU is a contract too.

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May 20, 2013, 11:33:29 PM
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Of course, this is exactly what would happen, and was the goal of TradeFortress all along. I allowed it to happen, it's how the system works, I allowed him to incur debt for bitstamp-backed btc, as he asked. He then gave that BTC to a random unknown user that popped up immediately after (suspicious!)

Ripple was perfectly capable of giving it away on its own, once you extended trust to TradeFortress and allowed your BitStamp IOUs to  enter the pool backing his IOUs.

Quote
I use ripple daily, have done for ages, never had any problem, and I only trust gateways that have my BTC and other currencies anyway, or people I know very well.

Ripple hasn't actually given been around that long, and it doesn't seem like you have actually acted in this manner rather than just saying you do.

Whether TradeFortress is honest or not his shennanigans reveal Ripple is a tremendous security vulnerability for anyone who uses it, unless you use an utterly paranoid set of precautions that have yet to be worked out.

Bullshit, it's only when the participants do not understand the concept of trust. By that logic pirateat40 revealed a tremendous security vulnerability too.

Of course pirateat40 did. Trust and greed are the opening for many security vulnerabilities.

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May 20, 2013, 11:34:32 PM
 #17

Whether TradeFortress is honest or not his shennanigans reveal Ripple is a tremendous security vulnerability for anyone who uses it, unless you use an utterly paranoid set of precautions that have yet to be worked out.

Bullshit, it's only when the participants do not understand the concept of trust. By that logic pirateat40 revealed a tremendous security vulnerability too.
Yes, but pirate didnt say, I am taking your money and not giving it back. 

Tradefortress said that here is an IOU I WILL NOT HONOR. 

Where?? https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=206948.0

He did not say that he would not honor it.
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May 20, 2013, 11:36:01 PM
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Quote
I use ripple daily, have done for ages, never had any problem, and I only trust gateways that have my BTC and other currencies anyway, or people I know very well.

Ripple hasn't actually given been around that long, and it doesn't seem like you have actually acted in this manner rather than just saying you do.


That isn't my only ripple account, that's just one I used for this, and indeed I do use ripple every day, certainly for the past couple of months, with trust lines extended to my friends, and to 2 gateways covering 3 currencies.
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May 20, 2013, 11:42:16 PM
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Of course pirateat40 did. Trust and greed are the opening for many security vulnerabilities.

I'd say it's rather greed that's a security vulnerability to trust.

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May 21, 2013, 12:00:34 AM
 #20

Whether TradeFortress is honest or not his shennanigans reveal Ripple is a tremendous security vulnerability for anyone who uses it, unless you use an utterly paranoid set of precautions that have yet to be worked out.

Bullshit, it's only when the participants do not understand the concept of trust. By that logic pirateat40 revealed a tremendous security vulnerability too.
Yes, but pirate didnt say, I am taking your money and not giving it back.  

Tradefortress said that here is an IOU I WILL NOT HONOR.  

In a sense IOU is a contract too.
Yes, it is.  And if someone handed you a contract that they said they were not going to honor, would you accept it then try to push to get it fulfilled? 

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