The True Explanation of Ripple for Bitcoiners

[jrussou]

what really matters in crypto-currency world is who benefits from 1. Adoption 2. Economic Growth 3. Productivity Increases.

Ever since the Federal Reserve and their "price stability" directive, all fiat currency value increases from Economic growth and Productivity increases have been soaked up by governments (via issuance of new currency).

So, this is why I don't like ripple ... Like the Federal Reserve are with fiat currencies, the Ripple managers are set up to benefit from 1. Adoption of XRP 2. Economic Growth in XRP usage and 3. Productivity increases (which tend to deflate prices relative to an un-managed currency).

The beauty of Bitcoin and other decentralized, limited supply crypto-currencies, is that the holders and participants of economies built up around these currencies are the primary benefactors of 1. 2. and 3. mentioned above.

Besides, there will be natural price stabilizing forces in the crypto currency world such that xrp is not needed.  When the value of currencies rise too high, there will be high demand for Alternate crypto-currencies (ltc, ftc, nmc, cnc, trc, etc.)  When value of crypto currencies wanes, the less popular/functional alts will die off.   We don't need a centralized market maker trying to provide price stability ... that will come as the crypto-economy matures.

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[MPOE-PR]

See any goat/rosenfeld/kenna/katz/gmaxwell/lukejr/blablabla behind it...run.

But, but... he hasn't even posted yet! https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=27249

I take it back. The inclusion of Mr blablabla on that list was a rash and inconsiderate move on my part.

Absolutely, in the near future. But I think the success scenario is one where XRP sees wide adoption as a currency.

Seems it has about the same chances as paypal's coin or w/e.

[mobile4ever]

That begs the question of why anyone would want to hold XRP in the first place, and contradicts claims that XRP is not a direct Bitcoin competitor.

I think it is both hugely synergetic (through the Ripple interface with fiat) and a direct competitor (XRP). I think both are good a thing.

Ah... the "challenging Superman" idealogy.

[SGExodus]

"Trust" in Ripple means:
"I would accept a check of up to __ units of currency __ from issuer __."
When you cash this check and if it is actually still "good" is your problem. If you accept checks from 2 different issuers, you can trade between them (e.g. I can offer to pay you 0.99 BTC for a 1 BTC "Bitcoin Code" from MtGox), which is how Ripple does path finding.
TradeFortress for example wrote himself a check of 1 billion or so BTC and then claimed this is a flaw in the system. It isn't - it's exactly how it is supposed to work. There is nobody stopping you from taking a blank check and writing "1 googol USD" on it either. You might have a hard time paying with it though probably.

Except this is only good hypothetically, and doesn't pass a reality check.

You can't really trade IOU between two issuers because they aren't on the same terms even if the value of the debt may be the same.

For example, there are differences in withdrawal limits that are not reflected in the Ripple system.   One issuer may allow for withdraw of up to $1000 per day, and the other may allow up to $50,000.   If you receive IOU from the first issuer, it will take you 50 days to recover your debt instead of 1 day from the latter.

In addition, how you withdraw your funds between the issuers are also different.  Some allows for withdrawal to Dwolla, some allows for inter bank wire within only Europe or China only.    There is no use getting a IOU if there is no way of recovering the debt.

I suggest Ripple proponent to read up on how how the current Bank Wire System works (http://money.stackexchange.com/questions/21775/how-do-wire-transfers-get-settled is a good start). 

Then re-look at the Ripple system again, and see if it can really achieve true decentralization operation when Fiat money is in the equation.

Bitcoin is brilliant because it explains its solution in a non-obscure manner.   It is solving a "Double Spend" issue using decentralized timestamp system -- easy to understand.

All Ripple does so far is making lots of assumptions and hypothetical examples (that show a lack of understanding of the actual financial system) without articulating what exactly they want to solve, and the value its solution to the various players in the eco-system.

[Tonko]

There is a 'simple' problem out there that waits to be solved. It is a problem of trust.

The need to store some value is based on the lack of trust that value that you currently hold is secure and stable.

The problem with the 'normal' banks is that CEO can go nuts and spend all your deposits on some trade, some over-leveraged short or long option contract, and then you have to pay for it. It is a problem of trust. In fact he can Corzine your money and, as long as he has good political connections, good luck getting back that money or suing him.
It all boils down to trust and the fact that, realistically, you can't trust anyone. Yet, the only option you have are non-transparent, often unenforced laws, that may or may not be applied to the institution where you keep your saved value.

Consider, Fed was allegedly created to solve the problem of bank runs. If somebody can always print the money that bank wasted on nonperforming loans, and give it back to you when you request it from a bank, why would you ever be worried and run on the bank?

I am convinced that present day cryptography may solve this problem and that Ripple gateway, if armed properly, can start playing the role of the good ole' bank, where your deposits simply can't be used for investment, or for a loan to someone else, unless you explicitly approve of it.

You want to lend and collect some interest, and have somebody else do it for you? Fine, shop for the gateway that offers you the best rate and that you trust. No decree on the rate from any academic.

As little as that would be a great start.

BitCoin, by design, has no such problem ... until it encounters a gateway, a bank, an exchange, etc. Then all the hell breaks loose.

[Sukrim]

For example, there are differences in withdrawal limits that are not reflected in the Ripple system.

They are not exposed in the current clients, they are very much reflected and built into the design of the Ripple system.

https://ripple.com/wiki/Contracts (<-- most general solution)
https://ripple.com/wiki/Gateway_policies
https://ripple.com/wiki/Authorized_accounts
...and a few more.

It's perfectly possible to restrict all holders of a certain IOU to max. 1000 USD per anonymous account for example and to offer registered/authenticated accounts with higher limits similar to MtGox.

You wouldn't (actually shouldn't) trust a gateway that you cannot use - if you don't have a Dwolla account, don't trust gateways that only allow withdrawal via Dwolla. You might have a Paypal account though and somebody else might have both types of accounts, so there is likely a pathway from Dwolla to Paypal in the system that will be used.

[🏰 TradeFortress 🏰]

For example, there are differences in withdrawal limits that are not reflected in the Ripple system.

They are not exposed in the current clients, they are very much reflected and built into the design of the Ripple system.

https://ripple.com/wiki/Contracts (<-- most general solution)
https://ripple.com/wiki/Gateway_policies
https://ripple.com/wiki/Authorized_accounts
...and a few more.

It's perfectly possible to restrict all holders of a certain IOU to max. 1000 USD per anonymous account for example and to offer registered/authenticated accounts with higher limits similar to MtGox.

You wouldn't (actually shouldn't) trust a gateway that you cannot use - if you don't have a Dwolla account, don't trust gateways that only allow withdrawal via Dwolla. You might have a Paypal account though and somebody else might have both types of accounts, so there is likely a pathway from Dwolla to Paypal in the system that will be used.

http://lyle.smu.edu/~tylerm/fc13.pdf

Page 3. I will laugh at you with ripple gateways shut down, and I am confident that Bitstamp will be shut down within the next year because they offer bearer instruments due to the use of ripple. Hence why no legitimate exchange that will last will use Ripple because that's illegal.

[Sukrim]

I spotted at least 1 error in that table just by skipping over it, interesting read nevertheless.

Actually it's easier to be licensed as a Ripple gateway than a Bitcoin/fiat exchange, at least in the EU. I'm not sure how this empirical analysis of some Bitcoin exchanges that shut down mostly while bitcoins were worth a tiny fraction of what they are worth today relates to my points that you quoted though.

[Its About Sharing]

I said it in another thread and I'll say it again here.

Ripple is the corporate/banking world's attempted co-op of the crypto-currency movement.

It says, "Hey you know that crypto currency idea?  Well it sounds great, but why don't we centralize it so we can make a huge profit instead of allowing the common people to create added wealth on their own."

The main thing to focus on here is CONTROL, ripple gives control back to a small group of individuals which flies completely in the face of the philosophy of cryptocurrency's "forefathers".  Im very concerned greed and stupidity(along with PR firms hitting the airwaves and brainwashing the gullible masses) will win out and people will slowly start backing ripple over bitcoin.

Well said, and to restate what mobile4ever said: Services like Ripple are destined to go the way of any service which proposes to establish Bitcoin functionally within the existing Fiat frameworks. Bitcoin is not meant to live alongside Fiat. It is meant to kill it. With extreme prejudice.

Again, I just get the feeling that Ripple, though it can do good things, is designed as a way into the BTC ecosytem. It could be used as a heist like system to BTC - the more I look into it. I also get the feeling the XRP thing is being used as a "oh, it's no big deal, not about money, not central to Ripple, etc." and then when Ripple takes off it will be "Get your XRP's now, while they are still cheap and you still can. Government regulators are going to come down on BTC."

Something just doesn't sit right with Ripple. And I bet we together will find out. Further, since it will be open source, why don't we just make it do what we want and simpler? Better yet, what about just making our own - isn't that what Bitmessage / Open Transaction is doing to a point?

[Saman]

"Stop deceiving Bitcoiners.

There's no place for personal attacks in my moderated discussion.

Ripple is more of a parasite that feeds off Bitcoin until it can stand on its own.

And this is another reason why I deleted the thread, baseless accusations.

OpenCoin is trying to apply a spin of coexisting to bootstrap themselves

Another reason why I moderated your post. Another personal attack.

Stop the intellectual dishonesty and say it like it is. XRP is a direct competitor to BTC.

And again a reason why I moderated your post. Yet another personal attack. And a baseless accusation, that XRP is a direct competitor.

Dude, take a deep breath and chill ...then take a dictionary and look up "personal attack", "insult" and thelike - Do you own a cat or a dog or any other pet? Well guess what - they are parasites feeding off you. And excuse me - is your last name Mr. Ripple? He is merely expressing his opinion - there is not one personal attack (=attack on a person) or insult in his post. He has a strong opinion about what possible effect Ripple can have on Bitcoin. Whats wrong with that?

Actually - the way you react to this makes his post a lot more credible and your's a whole lot weaker - Especially since you argue that reapting things over and over without adding anything sucks and then you repeat over and over that he is arming personal attacks and insults and baseless accusations- which he is clearly not!

So as I said - chill and let people express their opinion. Just because someone disagrees with you it's not an insult, right?

If you can't deal with different opinions and critics - bitcointalk might not be the right thing for you 

-SM

[Matthew N. Wright]

For example, there are differences in withdrawal limits that are not reflected in the Ripple system.

They are not exposed in the current clients, they are very much reflected and built into the design of the Ripple system.

https://ripple.com/wiki/Contracts (<-- most general solution)
https://ripple.com/wiki/Gateway_policies
https://ripple.com/wiki/Authorized_accounts
...and a few more.

It's perfectly possible to restrict all holders of a certain IOU to max. 1000 USD per anonymous account for example and to offer registered/authenticated accounts with higher limits similar to MtGox.

You wouldn't (actually shouldn't) trust a gateway that you cannot use - if you don't have a Dwolla account, don't trust gateways that only allow withdrawal via Dwolla. You might have a Paypal account though and somebody else might have both types of accounts, so there is likely a pathway from Dwolla to Paypal in the system that will be used.

http://lyle.smu.edu/~tylerm/fc13.pdf

Page 3. I will laugh at you with ripple gateways shut down, and I am confident that Bitstamp will be shut down within the next year because they offer bearer instruments due to the use of ripple. Hence why no legitimate exchange that will last will use Ripple because that's illegal.

The only ones laughing are the ones reading that ridiculous post claiming BitStamp will be shut down within a year for being a part of a federalized payment network.

[wallet.dat]

Sorry if this has already been answered, but how do I deposit and sell XRP on Bitstamp? I just tried a test deposit from Ripple.com to my Bitstamp account, but the test deposit got sent back (didn't even know that was possible).

[vindimy]

After reading this thread all I can say is - smoothie and some other tinfoil anti-Ripple "soldiers" here are the most insecure, immature, pathetic excuses of human being I've come across here. Whenever you spew bullshit out of your little mind, to a mature reader it sounds nothing more than an awful lot of whining of sociopathic losers who didn't get enough love from their mommas. I had to avoid typing out their names and now my mouse feels dirty from copy-pasting. Ew.

But you know what? I guess that's what happens when you give someone with low intelligence and a huge ego a keyboard and lots of time. Keep putting all your energy into continuous verbal diarrhea here - it's the best contribution you'll ever make to this world. Leave the real work to the decent human beings like the rest.

[🏰 TradeFortress 🏰]

Thanks for clearing up that you have no argument.