Avalon Water Cooling

[el_rlee]

Hello All,

 I've made some water cooling elements for my hopefully soon arriving batch 2 Avalon. As it isn't here yet I have no chance of testing...
However I post the manufacturing drawing, if anybody feels like making his own - please go ahead and take my design if you wish to.
Also I want to gauge interest if somebody would like to buy some - the offers I have from my vendors are about 150US$/pc.
The amount of M3 threads on this is roughly double than the original Avalon heat sink (the PCB's have the holes, god knows why they didn't execute it on the heat sink).

I am in China, if there is some other Avalon user here who wants to have a try on water cooling please contact me. I would be interested about noise level and over clocking potential.
As a chiller I was thinking about http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=2013.1.w31-17520194789.4.legfcf&id=10299146223. Additionally you need some hose, fittings and a pump (a central heating pump should do fine).

I would prefer to put the whole setup on my balcony (still need a solution for the PSU), but if only the chiller is outside and two small hoses come in it's also fine. The PSU shouldn't be as loud as the rest is supposed to be.

[1715101678]

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[1715101678]

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[ummas]

You`re kidding, right??
1. Alu ??
2. It`s 2,5Kg?
3. Haw can i fit it into avalon case, sorry - 3 or 4 of them to cool it ?


Think about Cu/Plexi sandwitch. It`s much more lighter. Sommethink like fullcover for GPU.
This brick is ussles IMHO.

[el_rlee]

You`re kidding, right??
1. Alu ??
2. It`s 2,5Kg?
3. Haw can i fit it into avalon case, sorry - 3 or 4 of them to cool it ?


Think about Cu/Plexi sandwitch. It`s much more lighter. Sommethink like fullcover for GPU.
This brick is ussles IMHO.

1. Yes, a very good heat conductor
2. Yes. Original one is 1.6kg
3. It's smaller than the original.

Cu/Plexi? Please make us a sample...

Advantages of my solution: less leakages, much appreciated by experienced water coolers.

[Wayne_Chang]

What's the material you used for this water block?
Is the hole 1/4' standard?
What kind of water channel inside?
I believe a normal water cooling system is enough.

[el_rlee]

What's the material you used for this water block?
Is the hole 1/4' standard?
What kind of water channel inside?
I believe a normal water cooling system is enough.

Aluminium
Yes, straight 1/4 inch (for flat sealing)
Round
How would that differ?

[Kernel32]

This is very nice, you might try some overclocking without fans disturbing the whole neighbourhood.

I want one if it comes with the Avalon unit.

[el_rlee]

This is very nice, you might try some overclocking without fans disturbing the whole neighbourhood.

I want one if it comes with the Avalon unit.

The chiller I posted can make 2 centigrade Celsius water - would be curious if my Avalon hashes faster then...

[Wayne_Chang]

What's the material you used for this water block?
Is the hole 1/4' standard?
What kind of water channel inside?
I believe a normal water cooling system is enough.

Aluminium
Yes, straight 1/4 inch (for flat sealing)
Round
How would that differ?

I mean no need to use a refrigerator. Use normal water cooling system with radiator, reservoir, and pump is enough.

[el_rlee]

What's the material you used for this water block?
Is the hole 1/4' standard?
What kind of water channel inside?
I believe a normal water cooling system is enough.

Aluminium
Yes, straight 1/4 inch (for flat sealing)
Round
How would that differ?

I mean no need to use a refrigerator. Use normal water cooling system with radiator, reservoir, and pump is enough.

It can get pretty hot where I live and I don't want to keep my Avalon inside all the time (and the air con on 24/7...) because I guess it will be pretty noisy.
I guess I would need pretty big radiators for passive cooling, and the chiller I posted is not expensive. Also it's set value can be adjusted up to 40 degree - than it shouldn't use so much electricity any more. I'm still fantasying about putting the whole setup on the balcony...

[Kartaiv]

Tag.

Nice work, looking forward to seeing the results of using this versus the stock heatsink!

[Bitcoiner_cph]

Very cool cooler!!

[Kernel32]

fantasying about putting the whole setup on the balcony...

Or you could put only the chiller outside to keep your mining gear safe (to cuttle pivately) and heat out.

[Icoin]

el_rlee: Thanks for your work!
We didnt receive our avalons yet, so i was able to finish the Qcool element with your measurements.


https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=164742.msg2259881#msg2259881

[el_rlee]

you are aware that yifu published their heatsink in dxf format on github?

[AvenG]

I'm very interested in this project, I 'll definitely switch to water cooling and use a chiller. I'm living in a hot place and my unit restarts every time it surpasses 46°C, the heat is very bad.. it reduces productivity and shortens the lifetime of the chips. Also the noise of the fans is very annoying.

BTW, I would suggest making at least 1 hole for placing the temperature sensor that every Avalon has:



Doing this, you'll need to use a waterproof temp sensor like this one:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2pcs-10K-1-NTC-1meter-Thermistor-Temperature-Temp-Sensor-Waterproof-arduino-/121005378819?pt=US_Weather_Meters&hash=item1c2c7b8d03

Also note that the Avalon came with only 1 sensor and each unit itself allows you up to 2 sensors:

[Loredo]

For what it's worth, lemme give you my encouragement and +1.  If there hasn't been already, you're probably going to find postings that say "don't be an idiot; well designed air cooling always surpasses water cooling."   Water cooling became the bastard child of computers when the big iron mainframes gave way to the VAX and other minis in the late 70's, and has been that way ever since.

But when stuff has to run in less than pristine conditions, like non-air-conditioned locales, or high dust environments,  water always has had its place, regardless of what they teach in school.

Good luck. 

[el_rlee]

I was thinking about fixing the thermo probe on the board instead of the heatsink. Maybe I design myself some sheet metal bracket to directly clamp it on a chip over two of the M3 threads.

Also I haven't yet designed the cabinet I want to put in the whole setup. it would be nice if it where air tight and insulated so I can run temperatures below condensing point... that's a little tricky.


Thanks for the nice replies!

[PulsedMedia]

water always wins air hands down in terms of cooling efficiency and capacity. That's why engines are water and not air cooled (except for some low output exceptions, lawn mowers, mopeds, old VWs etc.)
Infact, air is more like an insulator, you can infact use air as an insulator and has been used for ever since human learned to make clothing, and all animals with hair prior to that.
If you live in a cold climate your winter clothes are likely designed to hold in tiny pockets of air which works as insulator.
YES, air's heat conductivity and capacity is that tiny.

Why does it work for cooling them? Abundance.
As long as you circulate it and efficiently, it works quite well for cooling small loads, like CPUs etc.

Water is not cost effective solution for small loads due to the extra work needed, and little capacity required. Thus A/C + air works quite well.
But as soon as you venture into the kilowatt range in high density OR simply BIG setups, water suddenly becomes the best choice by far.

[Tamerz]

I honestly don't think it is going to work all that well if you are just running straight "tubes" through the block. You are not going to get very much surface area covered with the water. The entire area that covers the chips should be covered in water.

[crumbs]

You might have considered this already, but unless you have an incredibly high rate of flow through that block, the inflow side is going to be substantially cooler than the outflow (as water snakes through your block, doing its thing & picking up heat).  Might want to reconsider using the standard "sandwich" approach -- milling out the metal would take minutes, you already have access to an end mill, and if you're worried about leakage, go with 1/8" alum. plate instead of plastic, i've never had problems with leaking o-rings.  What's good for a radiator is pretty lousy for a waterblock

[crumbs]

water always wins air hands down in terms of cooling efficiency and capacity. That's why engines are water and not air cooled (except for some low output exceptions, lawn mowers, mopeds, old VWs etc.)
[...]

[PulsedMedia]

water always wins air hands down in terms of cooling efficiency and capacity. That's why engines are water and not air cooled (except for some low output exceptions, lawn mowers, mopeds, old VWs etc.)
[...]

Yes, and that engine is one of those rather low output ones. Yes it is, huge displacement but very low specific output, especially at altitude at thin air.
and as you can see from the image it's still huge effort to cool it, look at all those fins!

I want to see you try cooling an small displacement inline-4 engine which outputs 2megawatts as waste heat with just air. Yes, megawatts. and no, that engine does not melt. Infact, runs very smooth and without serious heat issues.

[DickyWong]

 
http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6237/6273300406_45db451ca2_z.jpg

[crumbs]

water always wins air hands down in terms of cooling efficiency and capacity. That's why engines are water and not air cooled (except for some low output exceptions, lawn mowers, mopeds, old VWs etc.)
[...]

Yes, and that engine is one of those rather low output ones. Yes it is, huge displacement but very low specific output, especially at altitude at thin air.
and as you can see from the image it's still huge effort to cool it, look at all those fins!

I want to see you try cooling an small displacement inline-4 engine which outputs 2megawatts as waste heat with just air. Yes, megawatts. and no, that engine does not melt. Infact, runs very smooth and without serious heat issues.

Jeesh, joking on these boards is dangerous  And yes, i know .58 beats 0.024, Fact Cat agreez.  

[crumbs]

If we's gonna cheat

[Gomeler]

If we's gonna cheat

Space shuttle was technically liquid cooled. If I recall correctly the nozzles were cooled with cryogenic hydrogen that was expanded in tubes surrounding the combustion chambers and nozzles. This expanded hydrogen was then used to drive the oxygen and hydrogen turbopumps that fed the main engine. The wikipedia article has some neat details of how the system worked -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Shuttle_Main_Engine. For reference, each hydrogen turbo pump was around 70,000 horsepower per engine.

[crumbs]

If we's gonna cheat

Space shuttle was technically liquid cooled. If I recall correctly the nozzles were cooled with cryogenic hydrogen that was expanded in tubes surrounding the combustion chambers and nozzles. This expanded hydrogen was then used to drive the oxygen and hydrogen turbopumps that fed the main engine. The wikipedia article has some neat details of how the system worked -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Shuttle_Main_Engine. For reference, each hydrogen turbo pump was around 70,000 horsepower per engine.

You're right, now that you mention it   My fail.

[goxed]

No wonder, Avalon sounds like a Jet taking off at full Fan RPMs

[SolarSilver]

No wonder, Avalon sounds like a Jet taking off at full Fan RPMs

If you are referring to a box of fans, you are confusing with another ASIC vendor ;-)

[Felipeo]

I see before, very nice water cooling for Avalon rigs on bitmine.ch, but now I can't find it 

[oxoa]

Nice mod, Im eager to see it mounted... 

[sneef]

I see before, very nice water cooling for Avalon rigs on bitmine.ch, but now I can't find it 

Did you mean this one.
https://devda.ch/content/avalon-qcool-element

It is on a .ch
This is why i wondered if it is the one you mean?

[firefop]

You might have considered this already, but unless you have an incredibly high rate of flow through that block, the inflow side is going to be substantially cooler than the outflow (as water snakes through your block, doing its thing & picking up heat).  Might want to reconsider using the standard "sandwich" approach -- milling out the metal would take minutes, you already have access to an end mill, and if you're worried about leakage, go with 1/8" alum. plate instead of plastic, i've never had problems with leaking o-rings.  What's good for a radiator is pretty lousy for a waterblock

Yes, it's a very basic design. Ideally you want at least triple the surface area inside a waterblock as the area of your hot side.

A better design is to break each input tube into a dozen or two dozen much smaller tubes inside... you have the added benefit of much faster rate of flow through the block and also get more heat conductive surfaces... this translates into better heat exchange from the block to the liquid.

[crumbs]

You might have considered this already, but unless you have an incredibly high rate of flow through that block, the inflow side is going to be substantially cooler than the outflow (as water snakes through your block, doing its thing & picking up heat).  Might want to reconsider using the standard "sandwich" approach -- milling out the metal would take minutes, you already have access to an end mill, and if you're worried about leakage, go with 1/8" alum. plate instead of plastic, i've never had problems with leaking o-rings.  What's good for a radiator is pretty lousy for a waterblock

Yes, it's a very basic design. Ideally you want at least triple the surface area inside a waterblock as the area of your hot side.

A better design is to break each input tube into a dozen or two dozen much smaller tubes inside... you have the added benefit of much faster rate of flow through the block and also get more heat conductive surfaces... this translates into better heat exchange from the block to the liquid.

I never had to cool setups like this, where the heat is dissipated into the circuit board's ground plane (?) & the package dictates board-side cooling (well, VR chips, i guess).  This is the best pic of the chip's pron side i could find:
Not sure if there's some sort of plate-through from the solder pad at the center to the ground plane, or if the only copper the chip sees is that center pad itself.  If it's the latter. i hope the pc board's skinny, not the best thermal conductor.
Have you considered something like this?
I was clicking through pics on Google & this is exactly like something i've made using nothing but Home Depot plumbing hardware & solder.  The tubing is simply laid into the routed channels & pressed flat (so it forms a D, flat side facing out ) just like in the direct contact heatpipe heat sinks. Dressed with a file for that extra-fancy ground finish.  The manifolds are just plumbing pipe, drilled & endcapped.  Fill all the gaps with cheap heatsink grease & it's ready to serve.  Works killa' & never leaks.   

[firefop]

You might have considered this already, but unless you have an incredibly high rate of flow through that block, the inflow side is going to be substantially cooler than the outflow (as water snakes through your block, doing its thing & picking up heat).  Might want to reconsider using the standard "sandwich" approach -- milling out the metal would take minutes, you already have access to an end mill, and if you're worried about leakage, go with 1/8" alum. plate instead of plastic, i've never had problems with leaking o-rings.  What's good for a radiator is pretty lousy for a waterblock

Yes, it's a very basic design. Ideally you want at least triple the surface area inside a waterblock as the area of your hot side.

A better design is to break each input tube into a dozen or two dozen much smaller tubes inside... you have the added benefit of much faster rate of flow through the block and also get more heat conductive surfaces... this translates into better heat exchange from the block to the liquid.

I never had to cool setups like this, where the heat is dissipated into the circuit board's ground plane (?) & the package dictates board-side cooling (well, VR chips, i guess).  This is the best pic of the chip's pron side i could find:
Not sure if there's some sort of plate-through from the solder pad at the center to the ground plane, or if the only copper the chip sees is that center pad itself.  If it's the latter. i hope the pc board's skinny, not the best thermal conductor.
Have you considered something like this?
I was clicking through pics on Google & this is exactly like something i've made using nothing but Home Depot plumbing hardware & solder.  The tubing is simply laid into the routed channels & pressed flat (so it forms a D, flat side facing out ) just like in the direct contact heatpipe heat sinks. Dressed with a file for that extra-fancy ground finish.  The manifolds are just plumbing pipe, drilled & endcapped.  Fill all the gaps with cheap heatsink grease & it's ready to serve.  Works killa' & never leaks.   

This would actually be much better imo... the more smaller tubes the better (to keep that flow rate high). The other interesting thing about this... if you were to vary the length of the micro pipes by making in non-rectangular with a delivery tube at an angle - you could potentially shape the heat profile of the sink in a beneficial way... if that doesn't really apply to the design...

The other method is use something like your pictures but twice as high... with only having active flow through half of it (the part in contact with the board) Effectively giving you the ability to store more heat away from the chips...

Or you could even combine these ideas using shorter micro tubes on the chip attached section and much longer ones on the parts high out... (which actually might give you slightly better cooling at the cost of needing a bigger pump.

[el_rlee]

Finally found some time...


Removing the PCB from the original heatsink - here you can clearly see that the only areas where you have real contact are around the screws...

Precision machining, fits like a charm

Fuck - forgot the plug, having a collision




Looks not really beautiful

Decided to not use the water channel behind the voltage converters and put in the thermosensor instead

My balcony

[el_rlee]

This is the water cooled miner running at 325MHz now - can somebody point me on where to see if a still have potential to go higher?
What are the "rejected", what the "discarded" shares? Where do I see the hardware error rate?



That's the air cooled miner next to it:



Here are the pool stats - I don't really understand why the water cooled miner is not faster by the number the frquency is higher (~15%)

[invader]

You should check accepted diff1 shares against hw errors, thats what you really want to know.
According to your screen you have ( 9032 / 735510 ) * 100% = 1.22% error rate
Try the latest firmware that was posted in "Avalon ASIC users thread" and overclock it to 375+

It's such a pain to see this "design flaw" that is not allowed you to connect 4th channel that is right behind stepdown converters.
If i was you, i would put connector on the other side of PCB and rearrange pins in male connector accordingly, or "enlong" one row of pins to make it able fit perpendicular. When i look at your photos it makes me want to reapply thermal paste to my unit.. Also thanks for sharing your experience with water cooling.

[el_rlee]

You should check accepted diff1 shares against hw errors, thats what you really want to know.
According to your screen you have ( 9032 / 735510 ) * 100% = 1.22% error rate
Try the latest firmware that was posted in "Avalon ASIC users thread" and overclock it to 375+

It's such a pain to see this "design flaw" that is not allowed you to connect 4th channel that is right behind stepdown converters.
If i was you, i would put connector on the other side of PCB and rearrange pins in male connector accordingly, or "enlong" one row of pins to make it able fit perpendicular. When i look at your photos it makes me want to reapply thermal paste to my unit.. Also thanks for sharing your experience with water cooling.

Thanks for your reply.

The 4th channel which is not in use does not at all result in any temperature difference I could feel by hand... same applies for the difference between the first and the last module.

It seams the problem is not at all to get the heat of the aluminum block, but the high thermal resistance between the chip and the heat sink. I guess two channels would be totally sufficient.

The chiller allows a set value down to 2 degree Celsius, I just shit my pants a little in fear of condensation. I live in a really hot and humid place.

What's a "healthy" hardware error rate?

[SolarSilver]

This is the water cooled miner running at 325MHz now - can somebody point me on where to see if a still have potential to go higher?
What are the "rejected", what the "discarded" shares? Where do I see the hardware error rate?

You can put it onto --avalon-auto and it will sort out the freq automagicly by looking at the % of hardware errors. Air cooled systems run at 365 MHz here, water cooled should go up to 400+ (450 MHz max)

As for discarded:

Discarded is totally meaningless, I wish it wasn't in the display at all. It's a number from when getwork was the protocol in use and means nothing in the local work generation era.

Hardware error rate:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=140539.msg2641395#msg2641395

[el_rlee]

You can put it onto --avalon-auto and it will sort out the freq automagicly by looking at the % of hardware errors. Air cooled systems run at 365 MHz here, water cooled should go up to 400+ (450 MHz max)

Would it be enough to enter that into the "More Options(Default: --quiet)" field in the GUI?

[BenTuras]

You can put it onto --avalon-auto and it will sort out the freq automagicly by looking at the % of hardware errors. Air cooled systems run at 365 MHz here, water cooled should go up to 400+ (450 MHz max)

Would it be enough to enter that into the "More Options(Default: --quiet)" field in the GUI?

Yes.

[rudrigorc2]

Very nice, I want like to test a set up like that  but I think for me is easier for me run on air. I have a balcony about the same size with nice insulation, for aditional 800watts(the chiller) I could just put the air conditioner there and run two or three avalons@350 below 51 degrees. But there is the noise.

If we build more blocks how cheap they can get?

You can put it onto --avalon-auto and it will sort out the freq automagicly by looking at the % of hardware errors. Air cooled systems run at 365 MHz here, water cooled should go up to 400+ (450 MHz max)

Would it be enough to enter that into the "More Options(Default: --quiet)" field in the GUI?

I think new firmware versions let you input the desired clock.

[BenTuras]

Start reading here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=140539.msg2623883#msg2623883 for more information about cgminer extra options.

[el_rlee]

Very nice, I want like to test a set up like that  but I think for me is easier for me run on air. I have a balcony about the same size with nice insulation, for aditional 800watts(the chiller) I could just put the air conditioner there and run two or three avalons@350 below 51 degrees. But there is the noise.

If we build more blocks how cheap they can get?

The price of the block really depends on the number you order. For orders <100 piece you will not be able to get much below the 150$ I mentioned.
If you change the design a little (thinner, less material) and open the tolerances you might be able to approach 50$/piece for large orders.

The chiller (800W) is not always running... when it is it makes noise like the outside part of an air condition unit.

[turtle83]

Very nice, I want like to test a set up like that  but I think for me is easier for me run on air. I have a balcony about the same size with nice insulation, for aditional 800watts(the chiller) I could just put the air conditioner there and run two or three avalons@350 below 51 degrees. But there is the noise.

If we build more blocks how cheap they can get?

The price of the block really depends on the number you order. For orders <100 piece you will not be able to get much below the 150$ I mentioned.
If you change the design a little (thinner, less material) and open the tolerances you might be able to approach 50$/piece for large orders.

The chiller (800W) is not always running... when it is it makes noise like the outside part of an air condition unit.

What temperature do you chill down the water to? Would running ambient temp water suffice if its open loop?

Instead of going thinner, you could mount 2 modules to single sink...

[el_rlee]

I run the water now at ~30 degree Celsius, I have 36 ambient temp today with high moisture.
2 pcb's @ one heat sink is not a bad idea, however impossible now with the top board.

You can put it onto --avalon-auto and it will sort out the freq automagicly by looking at the % of hardware errors.

I did that, and it didn't change the frequency for about 20 minutes now - running at ~1.2% HW errors. Can it be that it only works with readings of the fan RPM's?

[rudrigorc2]

maybe Build a flat cable to connect the top board, and make then setup even prettieR

edit: mAybe not  dont think flat cables can handle that much powe,can they?

[turtle83]

Is there any risk from using open loop system running tap water in such systems? i.e. corossion, mineral deposits, etc?

[irritant]

I run the water now at ~30 degree Celsius, I have 36 ambient temp today with high moisture.
2 pcb's @ one heat sink is not a bad idea, however impossible now with the top board.

You can put it onto --avalon-auto and it will sort out the freq automagicly by looking at the % of hardware errors.

I did that, and it didn't change the frequency for about 20 minutes now - running at ~1.2% HW errors. Can it be that it only works with readings of the fan RPM's?

hmm yes , it is also adjusting the fanspeed, and if that doesn't help it lowers the freq, when temp is below target it tries to increase freq and decrease fan again .. so maybe it needs those fan readings to work (?)

[el_rlee]

Is there any risk from using open loop system running tap water in such systems? i.e. corossion, mineral deposits, etc?

At first your environmental responsibility should tell you not to do so. Secondly: condensation.

[Bitcoinorama]

Is there any risk from using open loop system running tap water in such systems? i.e. corossion, mineral deposits, etc?

At first your environmental responsibility should tell you not to do so. Secondly: condensation.

And obviously mineral deposits present over the use of distilled water.

[crumbs]

One unexpected problem i had with submerged oil cooling:  Wicking -- oil traveling through stranded wire by capillary action -> gravity flow.  Had a really simple test setup, and after a couple of days noticed the connector of a submerged temp probe felt oily.  Took apart the PS which was left outside of the oil tank, and there was oil inside that too.  Just a silly detail to think about.

[el_rlee]

I know, nothing special - but it is the best I can get my hands on at the moment...

What kind of scientist wouldn't check his measurement equipment for plausibility?

In the lower and also higher range?

Hm.

Temperature of the voltage converters

Chips themselves

Cooling plate

Chiller at set value 29 degree (We have 36 outside at the moment and the dew point is around that)

Pump (cheap, around 30$) and two rigs

"Nongfu Spring" - my favorite! Running on pure water at the moment, still not sure what to use as a fluid later on. I was already thinking about adding alcohol to prevent this from growing inside my water, but I am a little hesitant because of the sealings and stuff.

Still a mess, will clean up after everything is working

Water inlet

Return temperature after 3 modules in serial connection


Thanks for your attention.

[dani]

Nice work man

since aluminum is kind of expensive and drilling those wholes can't be achieved by most DIY folks, would you think some setup like this would be good or even better?

http://imageshack.us/f/360/mkhdd4max02400hz0.jpg/
did you consider this? I think a user posted something similar to this. I'm also looking into making my own watercooler, help would be very much appreciated!

[el_rlee]

Nice work man

since aluminum is kind of expensive and drilling those wholes can't be achieved by most DIY folks, would you think some setup like this would be good or even better?

http://imageshack.us/f/360/mkhdd4max02400hz0.jpg/
did you consider this? I think a user posted something similar to this. I'm also looking into making my own watercooler, help would be very much appreciated!

Aluminium is expensive? Did you buy copper lately?
Yes, I considered such a design and I think it's more doable with your tools at home. I however think it will be difficult to get the surface flat and straight if you are only using sheet metal as basis and then apply heat when soldering.
I am pretty sure submerging is the to-go way for DIY. I just didn't want to have all the oil on my balcony...

I published the manufacturing drawing, just let a machining shop near you quote it.

[allinvain]

Have you considered selling water cooling kits?

[Icoin]

Have you considered selling water cooling kits?

There is a inbuild construction error; Do to the electric connectors its just possible to use 3 drills.

This is not the case for the avalon cool element design:
http://92.105.105.155/qcool/AvalonQcool2.pdf

@el_rlee: the qcool element is open source, so if you would like to produce and sell kits, feel free to do so

[ecliptic]

Are those smooth holes for the water channels with threads on the ends so you can mount the fittings/etc with the threads, or threaded all the way through? 

Looks like 15mm(?) of threads

[el_rlee]

Are those smooth holes for the water channels with threads on the ends so you can mount the fittings/etc with the threads, or threaded all the way through? 

Looks like 15mm(?) of threads

They are smooth inside, you can see the detail "X" on the drawing. Yes, min 15mm of threads. Americans, be aware that this thread is straight, the fittings need a sealing!

As a conclusion of my design I would say it's over specified but totally does it's job. I am running with 30 degree cooling water but cannot clock my miners higher any ways because that would require a voltage modification. Also the step down power converters are at their limits.
It would totally be possible to produce a cheaper solution, maybe like somebody mentioned before a copper plate with soldered-on pipe. Also the surface smoothness of "Ra 1.6" is way smoother than the original heat sink and makes it expensive.

@Icoin: Your module looks like it only cools the ASIC's and not the voltage converters? Did somebody already build it and use it on an Avalon? I would be curious about other peoples experiences.

I don't feel that there is a market for selling the cooling elements. To much work is involved until you have a running solution, even if you buy the heat sinks. If you want to produce larger quantities a redesign would make sense. Maybe in a way of fixing a PCB on both sides.

The main advantage for me is clearly that the noise is much (really really much!) less and I can keep my rig on the balcony in a hot, humid and dusty environment without worrying too much.

[ecliptic]

Are those smooth holes for the water channels with threads on the ends so you can mount the fittings/etc with the threads, or threaded all the way through? 

Looks like 15mm(?) of threads

They are smooth inside, you can see the detail "X" on the drawing. Yes, min 15mm of threads. Americans, be aware that this thread is straight, the fittings need a sealing!

As a conclusion of my design I would say it's over specified but totally does it's job. I am running with 30 degree cooling water but cannot clock my miners higher any ways because that would require a voltage modification. Also the step down power converters are at their limits.
It would totally be possible to produce a cheaper solution, maybe like somebody mentioned before a copper plate with soldered-on pipe. Also the surface smoothness of "Ra 1.6" is way smoother than the original heat sink and makes it expensive.

@Icoin: Your module looks like it only cools the ASIC's and not the voltage converters? Did somebody already build it and use it on an Avalon? I would be curious about other peoples experiences.

I don't feel that there is a market for selling the cooling elements. To much work is involved until you have a running solution, even if you buy the heat sinks. If you want to produce larger quantities a redesign would make sense. Maybe in a way of fixing a PCB on both sides.

The main advantage for me is clearly that the noise is much (really really much!) less and I can keep my rig on the balcony in a hot, humid and dusty environment without worrying too much.

So you would need to both increase the voltage and increase the output current capacity is what you are saying?  I'm not familiar with the Avalon stock design, so I wasn't sure if you could modify anything beyond the clock frequency

[el_rlee]

So you would need to both increase the voltage and increase the output current capacity is what you are saying?  I'm not familiar with the Avalon stock design, so I wasn't sure if you could modify anything beyond the clock frequency

Soldering required for higher rates, and I am even not so sure if it can go much higher... who knows?

[el_rlee]

Any thoughts on running a refrigerant through the blocks?

Condensation. My enemy.

[crumbs]

Any thoughts on running a refrigerant through the blocks?

Condensation. My enemy.

How about a dehumidifier for your balcony & dew (moisture) sensors in a few strategic places?  I guess pretty pointless if you can't clock up for other reasons.

[el_rlee]

Inspired by this thread https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=212090.0 I decided to have a try to improve the resistance between the chips and the aluminium.

The cooling areas of the chips are a bit lower than the board surface and the used thermal conductive foil doesn't show any marks - so it doesn't have real contact.



I removed all my PCB's from the heat sinks once more and applied thermal compound.



That's more like it



I know, a little more wouldn't have hurt probably but I only got 3 syringes and wanted to finish that rig. At least 4g required for one board.

Result: 10GH/s more in --avalon-auto mode (much less HW errors)

[A Meteorite]

Result: 10GH/s more in --avalon-auto mode (much less HW errors)

What clock rate and temps are you hitting with the thermal paste?

[GenTarkin]

avalon switched from a huge sludge of thermal goop(thread u linked) .. ..to the thermal sheet shown in ur picture?

I find it hard to believe that the foil makes little / no contact w/ the chips under the pressure of the screws. It would have to touch them... that thermal foil type stuff is squishy right? ...

Given that, Im sure its just the thermal effeciency working in ur favor of the MX-2 over the horrible effeciency of a thermal pad. =)

Post screenshot of clocks / temps / HW error after several hours of mining(webgui) .. that would be great =)
If its enough of a difference, I may attempt this.

[el_rlee]

I gotta say both my chiller and the pump are at their limit. Water set value is 30 degree as to avoid condensation, but the chiller is any ways running 100% at this hot weather so setting a lower value would have no effect at all.

[GenTarkin]

oh I see, that thermal foil, u tried first on ur WC blocks? I didnt even realize the pictures were a WC block =P
Thats pretty nice, whats the ambient @ that clock?

[el_rlee]

Ambient is sensor one. That thermal pad was delivered with my batch two unit.

[GenTarkin]

Ambient is sensor one. That thermal pad was delivered with my batch two unit.

oh interesting...

So, I was thinking, arent the temp sensors attached to the heatsink and not the asic chips themselves?
Given that...if ur thermal transfer effeciency increased by ur application of MX-2 .. shouldnt the heatsinks be a bit hotter as per the thermal sensors??

[GenTarkin]

An even more optimal application of MX-2 might be to do a thin layer across entire pcb first(kinda how it was stock on early samples) .. then apply a tad to each little thermal pad for the chips.
QFN, iirc is designed to not only release heat through the thermal pad but also to the PCB around it - both work as a cooling element for the chip.

[crazyearner]

Love the effort put into the  water cooling blocks. I would maybe recommend using different cooling fluid than water you have in them tanks and get stuff that is designed to adsorb heat and dispense it. apon hitting cooling as it is actually designed to cool the liquid quicker when travailing into radiator block to cool. Or your next task maybe taking it to a oil cooed rig setup but for water cooling at them terms seems heck of a hell high to me. I am currently working on a few things that I should have up shortly for air cooled for people as I know someone does done the tiniest of mods and now cooling much lower than the water cooling or very close results on air cooled. If I had the money I would go make some water blocks but also have a few ideas too More details later.

[ecliptic]

so the million dollar question is this -- What's the limiting factor here?

Is it just cooling?

Do we need to overvolt?

Is the Avalon designs (and other ones being designed(?)) capable of the increased current draw, not capable of a fast enough transient response, not enough decoupling caps?

Or are we running into a brick wall due to the internals of the ASIC chip itself?


Is there anything stopping a design with water cooling and upgraded power regulator/decoupling from breaking 450 MHz?

[crumbs]

Has anyone decapsulated one of these chips?

[riX]

Has anyone decapsulated one of these chips?

Why would anyone want that? Trying to figure out how hash sha256?

[crumbs]

Has anyone decapsulated one of these chips?

Why would anyone want that? Trying to figure out how hash sha256?

I was simply interested in packaging/heat transfer, that's why i asked in this thread.  I think there was a mention of "hollow" somewhere, a warning against top-side heatsinks, wanted to find out if that was the case.  Also idle curiosity, i like silicon pronz.  

Edit:  Spelingz -> silicone

[GenTarkin]

Has anyone decapsulated one of these chips?

Why would anyone want that? Trying to figure out how hash sha256?

I was simply interested in packaging/heat transfer, that's why i asked in this thread.  I think there was a mention of "hollow" somewhere, a warning against top-side heatsinks, wanted to find out if that was the case.  Also idle curiosity, i like silicone pronz. 

Just wiki or read many pdfs available regarding QFN package design. You will get the general idea, yes under the plastic they are hollow the die sits inside and has "metal support beams" (forgot exact term) that go through the PCB to the thermal pad on the opposite side of the PCB. Heat is distributed to the surface of the PCB & to that metal thermal pad.

[crumbs]

Just wiki or read many pdfs available regarding QFN package design. You will get the general idea, yes under the plastic they are hollow the die sits inside and has "metal support beams" (forgot exact term) that go through the PCB to the thermal pad on the opposite side of the PCB. Heat is distributed to the surface of the PCB & to that metal thermal pad.

I've cracked many open when i was a kid   Never seen one with a cavity inside, that's why i was curious.  I have a hard time imagining why such a cavity would exist, considering how the things are typically made (you can see the resin being poured in one of the frames):


They're all pretty much like this:
So whatever the plastic/resin is used on the topside is in direct contact with the die.  The second gif is, obviously, not to scale, so the plastic on top of the die is not much thicker than the PC board.  In other words, if there is no air cavity (why would there be -- seems much simpler to *not* have one), top-side heatsinks would improve air cooling *a big bunch*

[SolarSilver]

Also idle curiosity, i like silicon pronz.  

Let me get you your daily fix of pr0n:

http://zeptobars.ru/en/read/avalon-bitcoin-mining-unit-rig

No pics of the illustrious cavity though

[crumbs]

Let me get you your daily fix of pr0n:
No pics of the illustrious cavity though

Thank you
Dollars to donuts it's a plain vanilla package, and cheap alum. video ram heatsinks would improve air cooling for almost no money/time/risk. 
*I don't own an avalon rig, perhaps due to wagering dollars against donuts too often. 

[bitbeast]

I removed all my PCB's from the heat sinks once more and applied thermal compound

- Based on my own experience, I can only say that MX-2 is not quite effective thermal compound.

I do believe that Zalman ZM-STG2 could be a better choice for you:





But it seems I'm late with my good advice.

[el_rlee]

Did you do anything to control the thermal compound layer thickness in those tests?

No

[aTg]

What a great job you did, I thank you sincerely share the results.

A contribution, if you want to put 2 PCBs in one block, turn the pcb so that each "backplane" stay in a different side of the block.

[rudrigorc2]

And look what they changed for batch3:

[el_rlee]

What a great job you did, I thank you sincerely share the results.

Thank you for your posting. Just for you the following pictures:

[el_rlee]

Took me from 21st of May until now, almost 8 weeks later!

[turtle83]

Took me from 21st of May until now, almost 8 weeks later!

Is the plumbing to each block in serial or parallel?

[MacDschie]

Looks great!

What's your hashrate and clock speed? I'm very interested in those numbers to compare them to my own:

I have tried to cool down my Avalon with an A/C like in this thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=242423.0

Temps look fine: 15-19°C in the casing, 33-40°C at the blocks (Chip temp was below 50° all the time).
But the hashrates are exactly the same as without the A/C, at 29° in the case and 45° at the blocks. Even at 50° block temp I have the same maximum hashing speed of ~82-83 GH/s @ 355 MHz. If I cramp up the clock, hardware errors increase so much that the hash rate drops down.

The only difference I noticed when using the A/C is that I could run speeds like 400 MHz (with ~50% HW errors and hashrates <70 GH/s). Without the A/C, the highest clock speed is 385 MHz (also with high HW errors and lower hashing speed).

Has anyone noticed the same increase in HW error rate when cramping up the clock speed above 350-360? This seems to be a barrier, regardless of the cooling. I was thinking of a water or oil cooling myself, but now, the only reason to do this would be to reduce the noise.

[el_rlee]

Looks great!

What's your hashrate and clock speed? I'm very interested in those numbers to compare them to my own:

I have tried to cool down my Avalon with an A/C like in this thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=242423.0

Temps look fine: 15-19°C in the casing, 33-40°C at the blocks (Chip temp was below 50° all the time).
But the hashrates are exactly the same as without the A/C, at 29° in the case and 45° at the blocks. Even at 50° block temp I have the same maximum hashing speed of ~82-83 GH/s @ 355 MHz. If I cramp up the clock, hardware errors increase so much that the hash rate drops down.

The only difference I noticed when using the A/C is that I could run speeds like 400 MHz (with ~50% HW errors and hashrates <70 GH/s). Without the A/C, the highest clock speed is 385 MHz (also with high HW errors and lower hashing speed).

Has anyone noticed the same increase in HW error rate when cramping up the clock speed above 350-360? This seems to be a barrier, regardless of the cooling. I was thinking of a water or oil cooling myself, but now, the only reason to do this would be to reduce the noise.

I've posted this before, together with temperatures - read back on this thread.

Took me from 21st of May until now, almost 8 weeks later!

Is the plumbing to each block in serial or parallel?

3 piece (one Avalon) serial, the individual Avalon's parallel. Gotta say that all parallel would suit the pump better probably, also a bigger diameter hose would be nice. But as said before it wouldn't improve the hashrate any more so I didn't bother to change it.

Please note that the two hoses to the water bottle are short circuited near the pump, so normally there is nothing running up and down.

[tarui]

el_rlee

have u considered using fins inside the cooling loop and reducing the amount of g 1/4 openings?

[el_rlee]

el_rlee

have u considered using fins inside the cooling loop and reducing the amount of g 1/4 openings?

Yes. To be honest I wanted to do a serpentine like channel first, with a cover and a sealing but I couldn't manage the manufacturing drawing. A work colleague helped with this one and he did it in like one hour or so...
Also the fittings cost a dime a dozen and you almost have certainty that nothing will be leaking.

[tarui]

el_rlee

have u considered using fins inside the cooling loop and reducing the amount of g 1/4 openings?

Yes. To be honest I wanted to do a serpentine like channel first, with a cover and a sealing but I couldn't manage the manufacturing drawing. A work colleague helped with this one and he did it in like one hour or so...
Also the fittings cost a dime a dozen and you almost have certainty that nothing will be leaking.

do u have access to manufacturing of the waterblocks? or do u just design them then pass to some factory to mill it out?

i;m thinking of design some simple waterblocks after my exams end.

[el_rlee]

I did mine with a vendor of my company. They were not too inclined to do it for a low price because of the low quantity.

[tarui]

I did mine with a vendor of my company. They were not too inclined to do it for a low price because of the low quantity.

where are u located?

if i were to design or roughly sketch one, are u able to manufacture it?

[el_rlee]

I did mine with a vendor of my company. They were not too inclined to do it for a low price because of the low quantity.

where are u located?

if i were to design or roughly sketch one, are u able to manufacture it?

I could certainly get you a quote. Shanghai.
What would the volume be?

[tarui]

I did mine with a vendor of my company. They were not too inclined to do it for a low price because of the low quantity.

where are u located?

if i were to design or roughly sketch one, are u able to manufacture it?

I could certainly get you a quote. Shanghai.
What would the volume be?

That would depend on how many avalon owners are interested.

[tarui]

are u making this for manufacturing?

[el_rlee]

are u making this for manufacturing?

If you tell me a desired volume I can get you quote. For delivery cost I would need a location. Do you need the water blocks only or the whole system?

[tarui]

are u making this for manufacturing?

If you tell me a desired volume I can get you quote. For delivery cost I would need a location. Do you need the water blocks only or the whole system?

are those g 1/4"  threads on the fittings?

[el_rlee]

Yes. I also invite you to have a look at the manufacturing drawing I published 

[tarui]

Yes. I also invite you to have a look at the manufacturing drawing I published 

the reason for asking is because though yr diagram states g1/4
the pictures are too small, i can't see if there are screw threads or not.

just trying to clarify that's all

[el_rlee]

Yes. I also invite you to have a look at the manufacturing drawing I published 

the reason for asking is because though yr diagram states g1/4
the pictures are too small, i can't see if there are screw threads or not.

just trying to clarify that's all

please feel free to download the pdf by clicking!

[silver71]

This is the water cooled miner running at 325MHz now - can somebody point me on where to see if a still have potential to go higher?
What are the "rejected", what the "discarded" shares? Where do I see the hardware error rate?



That's the air cooled miner next to it:



Here are the pool stats - I don't really understand why the water cooled miner is not faster by the number the frquency is higher (~15%)

This might have something to do with the way your miner/controller talks to the boards and how it handles jobs given to chips and cooling is needed but is not that important as firmware and controller kernel design. It's brain and not muscle game.

However nice effort with aluminum blocks milling, but they suffer from same problems solar thermal panels have. Expensive, heavy and not that efficient. This technology is now obsolete with roll-bond technology available. We talk top-solutions, not mainstream which is still low efficiently-dominated on the market.

[silver71]

And about cooling fluid chemistry :

Most prominent vendors of cooling liquids based on "water" use this :

Demineralised water H20 + isopropyl alchocol (50-50% usually) + you can use some biological agent suppresive, like kalium - hypermangan (permanganate)  which wil erradicate algae since as I see your watter gallon bottles are exposed to the sun, and sooner or later biological agents such as algae will start to form.

Another possibly fluid for this could be Lithium-bromide, but not in plastic bottle and is also needs severe pressure protection.

Serious issue is also the electrochemical corrosion but I have too little information to help you with it.

However being put on alcohol evaporative temperature area, such bottles are not a proper storage for cooling liquid since alchocol will start to evaporate on room temperature, and there are liquid pressure issues when they change phase state, from liquid to evaporative.

[erhanzeynel]

wrestling with hoses and leakages 

Build your rig into a office size fride. 

[dogie]

And about cooling fluid chemistry :

Most prominent vendors of cooling liquids based on "water" use this :

Demineralised water H20 + isopropyl alchocol (50-50% usually) + you can use some biological agent suppresive, like kalium - hypermangan (permanganate)  which wil erradicate algae since as I see your watter gallon bottles are exposed to the sun, and sooner or later biological agents such as algae will start to form.

Another possibly fluid for this could be Lithium-bromide, but not in plastic bottle and is also needs severe pressure protection.

Serious issue is also the electrochemical corrosion but I have too little information to help you with it.

However being put on alcohol evaporative temperature area, such bottles are not a proper storage for cooling liquid since alchocol will start to evaporate on room temperature, and there are liquid pressure issues when they change phase state, from liquid to evaporative.

This is pretty far away from reality. The vast majority of PC watercooling is done with dionised water + small amounts of additives.

[el_rlee]

Switched off the miners because of power/bitcoin price... if somebody wants it, just shoot me a pm.

One might even be able to use the cooling blocks for other miners....